How to use scenes to their full potential

Question · Jan 5, 2012

I usually get in, write what I need to and then get out, or, as lots of people like to put it, "start late and leave early". After slogging through immense fantasy books like the Wheel of Time series I thought this was an amazing idea, and I always kept my scenes as concise as possible to keep the story flowing quickly. Now I'm not so sure.

I study EVERY entertaining thing I come across, and I recently (okay, five minutes ago) noticed how the author of my favourite manga (Eiichiro Oda/One Piece) stretches out his scenes with conflict and all sorts of ups and downs. It's not done for the sake of length; Oda just seems to know what he can do with his scenes. He uses each scene to its full potential before moving onto the next one. The end result is that his scenes get very long, but they remain interesting all the way through.

This was a weird revelation for me, because I've always assumed that the longer a scene gets the more likely it is to bore a reader, unless it's something dramatic or climactic. Up until now, I also felt like scene length should be proportional to the scene's importance, rather than the potential for conflict within the scene itself.

So, what do you experienced writers think? Should I squeeze out all of the conflict I can get from a scene before moving on to the next one, regardless of length? Or is scene length actually more important than this? When does scene length begin to overshadow the conflict within a scene? I know that interesting conflict has a way of distorting a reader's perception of time, but I'm not quite sure how to use this yet (or how far I can push it).

So many things I don't know! I'm happy that I've found something new to learn but it's also reminded me of the gap between me and the masters

PS: I'm sure I'm going to get some "don't think, just write" comments but knowing these things helps me to produce good fiction at will, rather than following a "gut feeling". To me, it's the difference between using a precise map and following a compass ;D

kuwisdelu · Jan 5, 2012

I haven't read or watched One Piece, but based on my other experiences with shounen manga, just don't write a fight scene that consists of twenty episodes of posturing before the first blows are finally traded.

roseangel · Jan 5, 2012

kuwisdelu said:
I haven't read or watched One Piece, but based on my other experiences with shounen manga, just don't write a fight scene that consists of twenty episodes of posturing before the first blows are finally traded.

Oh, I *hate* that, all that drawn outedness makes it sooo boring.
Bleach handled fight scenes pretty well, though I haven't read any new chapters since the Rescue Rukia arc.

Do what ever you need to do to get that first draft completed, once it's done you might have a better idea of what scenes need to be fleshed out more.

backslashbaby · Jan 5, 2012

I don't really think of scene length as I'm writing. I just go with what would feel best next to the part I've just written. I know that probably doesn't help!

I do think of highlights of emphasis. I'm always emphasizing something for the reader, so less important parts aren't allowed to go on longer than they need to, because I do think time spent 'lingering' has an effect on the emphasis of the good parts. I try to hit a highlight very quickly after having to give background info, general discussion, or other less interesting parts.

There can be highlight overload, too. So sometimes you might need to add some downtime to make sure the highlights stand out enough. I think that's why some action stories get on my nerves; the emphasis gets all murky to me.

Squeezing all of the conflict out of a scene? Hmmm. No, I think I just pick what I want to highlight. I could throw in more conflict, but that's not usually what I'm going for. I usually have a good sense of the 'mood' of a scene, so I go to plan more than just ramping up the conflict.

Of course, styles vary and all that jazz

BethS · Jan 6, 2012

The length is not important. What's in the scene is: conflict, reversals, turning points, change. Always change. And forward movement.

Mixing up scene length is good. A book written in a series of short, fast scenes will feel choppy and breathless. A book composed of long, meandering scenes will feel slow. Or if the scenes are always long but full of endless action, the book can feel exhausting to read. Readers need a break now and then, which is where contemplative, reaction, and regrouping scenes are useful.

Just a guess here, but if you're noticing a lack of conflict or complexity, probably your scenes, or some of them at least, do need to be developed more.

brianjanuary · Jan 6, 2012

There's nothing wrong with long scenes, just as there's nothing wrong with short scenes. The problem comes when the scene is crammed with unecessary padding (like long, overblown descriptions or talking heads) and lack of conflict. Every single scene and chapter in your book should move the story--meaning the conflict--forward in the most economical way possible. Get to the meat, the core, of the scene and build it around that--each scene should have a goal that relates to the overall story, like mortaring single bricks that eventually will make an entire, unified wall.

Astronomer · Jan 6, 2012

Don't think, just write.

Question said:
I'm sure I'm going to get some "don't think, just write" comments

Dang. Saw that one coming, did you? That's GOOD. That means you're thinking.

To me, a scene should have as many words as it takes to accomplish its purposes (note the plural), and no more. There should be nothing in the scene that doesn't move things forward. Writing by this philosophy doesn't preclude long scenes, however. Most scenes have multiple purposes and can be very long. Some tasks, like establishing a hero's reluctance (just an example -- ymmv), can take a great deal of scene length to accomplish.

Whatever you do, don't just add fluff. The words have to count. If you think (yeah, thinking's a good thing to do) your a scene is short, try combining tasks to establish more for that scene to accomplish. Doing this strategically will (as Beth pointed out) allow you to control the pacing and tension of your story.

Kayletta · Jan 6, 2012

Some writers can take one scene and stretch it to the limit and keep everyone captivated, others use word economy and keep things tight and moving. Neither is wrong or right, but sometimes one is more effective for the particular scene than the other.

You also have to take your audience into account. Younger audiences will have trouble following massively complicated drawn out scenes, whereas adults may not. If you read your scene and say... 'I could do so much more with it and still keep it interesting', then maybe you should. If you look at a a scene and think that adding a single word will ruin its perfection, then don't.

This is writing, not rocket science. There is no formula.

job · Jan 6, 2012

Question said:
.. knowing these things helps me to produce good fiction at will, rather than following a "gut feeling". To me, it's the difference between using a precise map and following a compass ;D

You're overthinking.

A scene takes as long as it takes. It moves at the pace that's needed to knit the whole manuscript together. If there were a map, every novel would look like . . . I dunnoh . . . Patagonia, or something.

Vemy Paw · Jan 6, 2012

One piece is a manga. Oda can make the scene as complicated as he needs without making them seem too complicated because he doesn't need to add descriptions in paragraph. If One Piece is adapted into a novel, I'm sure the scenes will be shorter, or it will be confusing.

Maybe it's the show, don't tell stuff? Oda is practically showing all the time. That, and I think Oda is a genius :tongue

I want to be able to write stories like him too :tongue

GaryLeoTam · Jan 6, 2012

job said:
You're overthinking.

A scene takes as long as it takes. It moves at the pace that's needed to knit the whole manuscript together. If there were a map, every novel would look like . . . I dunnoh . . . Patagonia, or something.

I agree with this. There's no need to drag out a scene to "savor the moment". At least, you shouldn't do it just for the sake of dragging it out. It really depends on what kind of impact you want to have on the reader. You can make a fast-paced action sequence drag on for several pages, or you could shorten a drawn-out siege into two or even one line. In other words, I think one should write the scene to reflect what experience he or she expects the reader to undergo.

heyjude · Jan 7, 2012

I think about the length of scenes when I write, trying to keep them as short as I can while still getting in everything that needs to be in there. But I write MTS, and it needs to be faster-paced than some genres.

How to use scenes to their full potential

Question

Soon I will be invincible

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

roseangel

Crazy Young Cat Lady

backslashbaby

*

BethS

brianjanuary

Astronomer

I'm an excellent poofreader.

Kayletta

Prone to flights of fantasy

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Vemy Paw

GaryLeoTam

heyjude

Making my own sunshine

How to use scenes to their full potential

Soon I will be invincible

Revolutionize the World

Crazy Young Cat Lady

~~~~*~~~~

I'm an excellent poofreader.

Prone to flights of fantasy

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Making my own sunshine

*