The Infinite Critique Loop

Saint09 · Jan 1, 2012

Anyone else experience the dreadful Infinite Critique Loop? You know, where you'll throw something out for a critique, get the feedback, make the changes...throw it back up, then all the sudden you find a lot of the feedback is suggesting things you originally had? And from there it happens over and over in a infinite loop.

I guess I'm just curious to know what others think about this. I've often wondered "Okay, when is enough critique enough?", because one thing I've found, as long as you keep putting something out there for critique, no matter how many times you've revised it, people will find just as much they think you should change.

In the end I guess you just have to stick to your convictions and what you feel works, say "thanks", and move on. But man, sometimes I wonder I might offend some of the critters.

Funny story. I remember a few times where the same critter would contradict something they pointed out in a previous draft. Boy, that gets really confusing haha.

Right then...that's all! Happy Blessed New Year! :hooray:

mccardey · Jan 1, 2012

This is why I stick to one real life beta. Anything else would send me totally insane.

Saint09 · Jan 1, 2012

mccardey said:
This is why I stick to one real life beta. Anything else would send me totally insane.

Yeah, the beta really comes in handy to put a stop to the crit process. But this very same Infinite Crit Loop happens in my RL writers group too. Either that, or I'll get half the people who want it one way, and the other half love it the way it is. It can be really tough to put the hammer down sometimes.

In person it's slightly easier, since you know the people critiquing, and can decide who is your target audience. Some things you can wave off if the people commenting on it are outside your market, and the people that love it are exactly who you are aiming it.

gothicangel · Jan 1, 2012

I think there is a definite risk of continually going through edits to achieve 'perfection.' Then the loop starts all over again with agents and editors.

My advice is, when you recieve feedback, do you agree with it? If you'd rather gouge your eyes out wth a tea-spoon, then ignore it. A caveat to this, is who is giving the advice. An English teacher? An unpublished writer? A agent/publisher?
At the end of the day it is your book.

Michael Davis · Jan 1, 2012

No, never happened. I'm lucky that my critique group is primarily other published authors for which we reciprocate on reviewing each others smooth draft before being sent to the publisher, not versions along the way. We allocate time for a one pass evaluation given we're all working multiple projects. I have added scenes or changed the finality based on their feedback then asked for a second critique of just that addition, but never a full pass again. Don't want to over burden a key resource I value so much. Took too long to find them, don't want to be a pest (g).

Buffysquirrel · Jan 1, 2012

The thing is, if you change one thing, you influence those things around it, too. So something that worked prior to that change may not work subsequent to it. Also, people change their minds a lot.

It's useful to remember that although betas can be superace at spotting there's something wrong with a story, they can be less than exceptional at working out what it is, and pitifully bad at knowing how to fix it.

Ultimately the name on the ms is yours. Take what you can use and leave the rest.

jeffo20 · Jan 1, 2012

Saint09 said:
Anyone else experience the dreadful Infinite Critique Loop? You know, where you'll throw something out for a critique, get the feedback, make the changes...throw it back up, then all the sudden you find a lot of the feedback is suggesting things you originally had? And from there it happens over and over in a infinite loop.

What Buffy said. I added two paragraphs to a chapter near the end of my MS and now have to go and root out subtle little things throughout that need to be changed. Change begets change. Sometimes they need big fixes, sometimes they don't.

Saint09 said:
I guess I'm just curious to know what others think about this. I've often wondered "Okay, when is enough critique enough?", because one thing I've found, as long as you keep putting something out there for critique, no matter how many times you've revised it, people will find just as much they think you should change.

In the end I guess you just have to stick to your convictions and what you feel works, say "thanks", and move on. But man, sometimes I wonder I might offend some of the critters.

You answered your own question right there. At some point, you have to decide that it is 'good enough'. As for offending critters, that's a risk you take. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you can't work together in the future (at least, it shouldn't). If someone is offended or gets in a snit because you didn't implement every little change they suggested, maybe you don't want to work with them.

Buffysquirrel · Jan 1, 2012

jeffo20 said:
I added two paragraphs to a chapter near the end of my MS and now have to go and root out subtle little things throughout that need to be changed. Change begets change. Sometimes they need big fixes, sometimes they don't.

This Temple where my protag and antag are having their showdown suddenly sprouted a whole new room. Now I have to go foreshadow it....

VoireyLinger · Jan 1, 2012

Limit your crits. Unless there are major structural issues, I have three rounds. I have my lightest critter go first. She pulls out the biggest issues. Moderate next, then my heavy-hitter is the last crit. If all goes well, The hard crit at the end won't find too much needing fixed.

Just because a crit dings something, that doesn't mean it needs changed. Suggestions need to be weighed carefully, not followed blindly.

Crits can fall into the category of "there is no such thing as perfect". There will always be a change you could make, a new direction to take a manuscript, something you can reword, add or cut. Crit partners will always have ideas based on their own thoughts. As the author, you have to be able to put on the brakes and call it done. No more crits, no more rearranging, no more tweaking.

Ultimately, it's your story. You have to decide if option A or option B is right. If a CP is going to get offended over a suggestion not being taken, that person may not be someone who needs to be critting.

inspiredbymusic · Jan 1, 2012

It is difficult. Even if making minor changes after a "final" beta read-through, you want to make sure the changes work and read well. Then if you have another beta read to make sure the changes work, they may suggest changes, and the cycle continues. At some point it needs to stop. But, on the other hand, you don't want to miss any valuable suggestions or submit the manuscript before it's ready.
It seems like the more experienced writers here (in the posts above) have found systems that work for them, but until you find that, it's hard!

Bufty · Jan 1, 2012

The critique loop is of the submitter's making.

Don't let the satisfying of critters be the main objective.

Rectifying something pointed out by a critter does not automatically mean everything else in the manuscript is perfect.

LindaJeanne · Jan 1, 2012

It's only an "infinite loop" if you give the critters final say.

Saint09 said:
In the end I guess you just have to stick to your convictions and what you feel works, say "thanks", and move on. But man, sometimes I wonder I might offend some of the critters.

This is your story. You have final say. If a critter doesn't like it, they can write their own story.

You need to find the middle way. At one extreme is golden prose syndrome, at the other extreme is giving others too much control.

Listen to the crits. Think about them; don't dismiss them out of hand. But in the end -- your story, your call.

CrastersBabies · Jan 1, 2012

It sounds like you need a new critique group.

In the end, you need to make those decisions. A critique group is there for feedback. If you try to please them all, you're pretty much screwed. I agree with my critique group about 60-70% of the time (which is a pretty high number if you think about it). They don't see much revised work, though. It's usually one shot then move on.

Also, I'm never offended if someone does turn in a revision and my suggestions went ignored. It means the writer considered it (or not) and moved along.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 1, 2012

Editors are my only critiquers. If an editor asks for a change, I'll probably make the change. No one else gets any input.

dangerousbill · Jan 1, 2012

Saint09 said:
Anyone else experience the dreadful Infinite Critique Loop? You know, where you'll throw something out for a critique, get the feedback, make the changes...throw it back up, then all the sudden you find a lot of the feedback is suggesting things you originally had? And from there it happens over and over in a infinite loop.

The worst thing I can do is put my stuff out for critique before the first draft is complete.

Even though I'm experienced in giving and getting critique, the most well-meant and serious comments have a way of seeping into my work. They can affect the progress of the story and sometimes even kill my motivation. As hard as it might be, I keep my wips in the 'most secret' box until the first draft is done.

I hold my need for immediate critiques responsible for the death of at least two of my projects.

Zombie Kat · Jan 1, 2012

It's pretty easy to see that something isn't quite working in someone else's writing, it is often very difficult to explain why or come up with an easy fix! If my writing mates contridict themselves after reading different drafts, I find it is usually a sign that something just isn't working for them in general. I use crits as a guide rather than a definitive answer on how to fix my book. I'd rather learn to trust my own judgement - trying to please everyone else is a recipe for disaster!

areteus · Jan 1, 2012

It is the Zeno's paradox of writing... each crit takes you only part way to perfection but doesn't quite reach it. However, just as with Zeno's frog, eventually you get to the point where you can simply step ashore and break the cycle rather than jumping half the distance each time and never getting there.

The point of crits and betas is to get something good enough to pass muster to an agent or editor not to make it good enough to be published. That step comes after...

Bufty · Jan 1, 2012

areteus said:
...The point of crits and betas is to get something good enough to pass muster to an agent or editor not to make it good enough to be published. That step comes after...

Bullshit!

The point of getting a critique or using a beta reader is to see if there's anything glaring that you've missed.

Getting a critique and fixing whatever is mentioned is not even a guarantee of making it good enough for an Agent or Editor.

The initial aim of any writer should be to make it good enough to be published.

Submitting something to an Agent that is not good enough to be published is asking for a rejection. Agents are not there to clean up your manuscript.

CrastersBabies · Jan 1, 2012

I think people use writing groups and betas for different things. My writing group will sometimes point out grammatical weirdness, syntax, line-level stuff. But they look at plot, character, all the craft mojo.

I also think that it depends on the group as to whether or not you're going to share work pre-finished-manuscript (1st draft). I don't particularly like overly prescriptive critique. The writing group will offer a few suggestions, tell me what's working, what's not. I find that helpful in the drafting process, but certainly don't rely on it.

Our group doesn't care if it's a draft in process or something that's going through another "pass."

My manuscript is definitely more publisher/agent-ready after I've revised based on critique (keeping what I feel works and ditching the rest). But, the rest is still up to me.

The Infinite Critique Loop

Saint09

is a very hoopy frood.

mccardey

Saint09

is a very hoopy frood.

gothicangel

Toughen up.

Michael Davis

Buffysquirrel

jeffo20

Tyrant King

Buffysquirrel

VoireyLinger

Angel Wing Fetish

inspiredbymusic

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

LindaJeanne

On a small world west of wonder

CrastersBabies

Burninator!

Jamesaritchie

dangerousbill

Retired Illuminatus

Zombie Kat

Bacteria are your friends

areteus

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

CrastersBabies

Burninator!