Why is that nowadays, the darker the novel, the more 'realistic' it is.

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J.L. Calder

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Now, I'm not saying that this is what EVERYONE thinks, I'm just saying I see this a lot.

It seems to me that the extreme is considered realistic. The more main characters that die, the more realistic your book is. The more of a jerk your main character is, the more realistic he is. The less moral the people in your books are, the more realistic they are.

Again, I understand SOME people in the world are like that, but not everyone.

I've read reviews where if, in a book, the character chooses to remain abstinent from sex, the author will be decried as a 'Christian' or a 'prude' or something like that. Where as, if the character decides to bed every woman he meets throughout the course of the novel, no question will be raised whatsoever. But here's the thing, they're BOTH ok, if it fits the character.

If your protagonist is a very devout follower of a religion that requires abstinence, then it only makes sense that they would remain abstinent (barring that he/she gets married.) If your protagonist follows no religion in particular, or a religion that does not mention the subject, then it makes sense that they woud have no qualms about sleeping around. There's nothing wrong with either! Yet it appears a lot of people have a problem with the first.

Similarly, if you have five main characters, and they all go to war and all end up dying in the end… fine, it happens, people die in war. But if you have five main characters, and they all go to war, and all survive in the end… that's fine too, because you know what? In war, even though a lot of people die, MORE people (usually) end up surviving than dying.

However, there are people that complain that that something isn't realistic because it's not extremely gritty. Those are just two examples, there are plenty more.

Going to the extreme (on BOTH sides) is unrealistic. In a truly realistic world, there will be people who are horrible, and people who are good, and people who are in between. People who die, and people who survive. People who never have sex, and people who do, and people who wait to be marriage. There will be Black, White, AND Grey characters.

But it appears the only way to be realistic is to be only Grey.

Again, I'm not saying everyone thinks this. As far as I know, this viewpoint is limited to the people around me. Maybe most people agree with me, and I don't even know it. But in my experience (my circle of friends, writing groups, ect. ect.) this seems to be the general theme. I wanted to bring my thoughts to other writers. Am I wrong? Am I just insane?
 

thothguard51

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Different readers have different taste just as writers have different views. Write what you enjoy...
 

escritora

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Most people are in between. No one is truly good, and very few people are bad. ("few" relative to the number of people who exist). I prefer "grey" characters for that reason. It's more realistic.
 

Amadan

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Again, I'm not saying everyone thinks this. As far as I know, this viewpoint is limited to the people around me. Maybe most people agree with me, and I don't even know it. But in my experience (my circle of friends, writing groups, ect. ect.) this seems to be the general theme. I wanted to bring my thoughts to other writers. Am I wrong? Am I just insane?


I don't really think this view is that prevalent. It may be common among fans of Grimdark (tm) fantasy, but you don't have to write that.
 

Polenth

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I've seen people do the dark = realism thing, but they're fans of a certain type of darkity dark book. They're not your target audience, so you don't need to worry about them. Certainly don't think you have to change everything you write for them.
 

J.L. Calder

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Ah, thanks for the feedback guys! I understood that they weren't my target audience and I didn't plan to change my style, I was just wondering how prevalent this viewpoint was, so I wanted to get all your opinions :)
 

leahzero

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Fantasy, at least, has been whitewashed (morally and racially) for ages. Good and evil. Right and wrong. Black and white. Dark and light. A change of pace from moral rigidity and tired dichotomies is a good thing, IMO.

As for the abstinence issue, if we're talking about fantasy, the modern notion of abstinence is a relatively recent thing. In the middle ages it was less about religion or personal beliefs than it was about property, tied into patriarchal views of women as chattel, virginity as a commodity, etc. So, in a fantasy setting, abstinence often comes across as anachronistic. It seems like an imposition of modern (often Christian) mores on a culture that is unlikely to have developed said mores.

A woman in a patriarchal feudal society won't wait to have sex until marriage because it's the "right" thing to do; she'll wait because marriage is her only meal ticket, and if she's not a virgin her suitor will likely reject her.

And that's just marriage. There are all sorts of other things that have been whitewashed to be more palatable for escapist fantasy.
 

J.L. Calder

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A change of pace from moral rigidity and tired dichotomies is a good thing, IMO.

I don't disagree with you. My problem is that (at least in the context of my post) it's not a shift to middle ground, but a complete Face Heel Turn to the other extreme. Which is, in my opinion, just as bad.

Again, just in the context of my post. I understand this kind of thing doesn't go too far outside of the super dark fantasy genre.
 
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It's common now because for so long mainstream fantasy had a reputation for very moral heroes, for being escapist, etc. So now we're seeing the obvious backlash.

This isn't really an issue with actual fantasy books, it's all about the perception. There have always been black and grey moralities in fantasy. You see this huge trend towards darker books not because there's suddenly been a huge change in fantasy as a genre, but because those are the books being hyped in response to the older perception that all fantasy was wishy-washy goody-goody fariytales. The non-"gritty" books are still being written, you're just not hearing about them as much.
 
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frimble3

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And sometimes, calling a dark, gritty book 'realistic' is just a reviewer looking for something vaguely positive to say. 'Well, it's realistic" is much kinder than 'It's a bleak, depressing read, and don't expect a HEA ending." Like 'she's got a great personality' or 'he makes a lot of money'.
 

jjdebenedictis

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I know what you mean; I too have noticed a lot of books billed as "gritty" and "realistic" are actually a glorious orgy of sex and violence.

Which I'm totally fine with, but thankfully, for most people in the part of the world I live in, that's not "realistic". We tend to lead much more comfortable, pleasant lives than that.

However, fiction requires drama and usually poetic justice, and reality often skimps on those attributes.

Also, although I understand the draw of reading about people who have a life like your own, part of what makes fiction powerful is that it can put you into the head of someone whose life is utterly unlike yours.

If you feel like you were there, like you were really experiencing the events of the novel, then in a sense, the novel was "realistic". It convincingly duped your imagination into believing it was all happening.
 

Saint09

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Some good points here.

I don't think it's any coincidence that these "dark gritty" fantasy novels are popping up along the same time as the highly successful, grittier superhero/comic book movies. These darker renditions of the anti-hero/flawed superhero are a pretty big draw, and it seems to me that the fantasy genre is cashing in on that.

Also, if you think about it, a lot of the traditional epic fantasy we know does have dark and gritty content. The Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth...both have very dark despicable events and characters. We just don't notice it as much because it's cloaked in the epic scale of the plot/series as a whole. The new "dark & gritty" (sounds lie a rap song :D) only seems to be bringing that stuff to the forefront and making it central to the novel by making it character-drive rather than plot-driven.

To me it is almost giving a modern spin/feel to the fantasy setting, and naturally, the closer something feels to modern, the more realistic it's going to feel.

Fate plays another factor as well. A lot of the epic fantasy novels involve characters being "fated" and "destined" (not horribly realistic). The newer gritty stuff is more about characters making their own fate and living with the choices they make.

As far as why this dark gritty stuff is so "the rage" now? I think it's simply what's selling combined with all the success of the grittier, much more serious superhero movies (compare the silly old Batman movies with The Dark Knight).
 

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If your protagonist follows no religion in particular, or a religion that does not mention the subject, then it makes sense that they woud have no qualms about sleeping around.

Really? No worries about pregnancy or STDs? No personal belief in 'the right person'? Only religion can keep people from rabbithood?
 

Saint09

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J.L.Calder said:
If your protagonist follows no religion in particular, or a religion that does not mention the subject, then it makes sense that they woud have no qualms about sleeping around.
Really? No worries about pregnancy or STDs? No personal belief in 'the right person'? Only religion can keep people from rabbithood?

Yeah, gotta say, I know a few people who refuse to sleep with anyone until they are married. Quite a few actually. Most are for romantic reasons only. Some are due to their faith.

You may see it more among faith-believers, but it's certainly not uncommon among peoples as a whole.

Not to mention the political/social reasons one wouldn't sleep around (I mean we are talking about fantasy). Depending on the culture, it can be quite common that virginity would be was highly valued quality in a wife. Daughters, in hope of catching nobility or any other higher in the social ladder, would save themselves. I've read quite a few fantasy novels where religion played no part in their decision to NOT sleep around.
 
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Grunkins

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I think it depends how's it's pulled off. I think GRRM's novels are a darker and very realistic, but Joe Abercrombie's novels are also darker and they read like cartoons.
 

Anne Lyle

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I think that dark'n'gritty fantasy is considered more "realistic" because we are all too aware these days of the depths that human beings can sink to. Yes, there may have been a few times and places where the majority of people were good, noble and honourable - but let's face it, there have been an awful lot more where people were ruthless to the point of inhumanity. And it has to be said that, given that conflict drives fiction, a cast of goody-two-shoes characters is going to be a lot less interesting than a bunch of vicious, backstabbing villains :)

That's not to say you can't have some good and virtuous characters in a book - some of us still like to have a bona fide hero to root for - but don't make them whiter-than-white, because no-one is that perfect, just as no real human is as out-and-out evil as Sauron. Your grey shouldn't be a monotone anyway - paint your characters in shades from palest dove to deep charcoal!
 

J.L. Calder

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Really? No worries about pregnancy or STDs? No personal belief in 'the right person'? Only religion can keep people from rabbithood?

Nononononon sorry if you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that the ONLY way someone could sleep around was if was a faith thing. I meant that, if your character DID bed a lot of women throughout the series, if would make more sense if his upbringing caused him to have no moral qualms about such a thing, rather than if he were a very devout priest.

I was just using it as an example to get my point across, I wasn't trying to make it seem like a solid truth. Sorry.
 

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Completely false. And unbelievably naive.


Since you'd have to first establish exactly what her definition of "good" and "bad" are (definitions which are highly particular to the context of any such statement), your refutation is as meaningless as most of your ponderous declarations of Absolute Fact excreted from some dark tightly-clenched place.


What makes the "dark and gritty" genre today different is not that depicting really despicable people and despicable acts is new, but that in the past, there was usually a fairly clear demarcation between the good guys and the bad guys. You might have your occasional anti-hero (Elric) or heroes who engaged in morally questionable activities (thieves, casual killers of whatever orcs happened to be on the opposing side), but usually the heroes were still people you could empathize with.

Now we have books where the "heroes" commit genocide and rape and we're supposed to root for them because their enemies are even worse, or because they are occasionally kind to small animals or something. Sometimes these can be quite interesting characters, but I really don't enjoy them as protagonists.

I think the grimdark trend in fantasy (and superheroes) was a reaction to the black and white morality of previous eras. Particularly in comic books. Superheroes were always just so morally upright and perfect, even the Batman*, when comic book writers first started exploring the idea "Hey, what if these superheroes are actually human beings with flaws and occasional bad attitudes?" it was novel and almost shocking. But then the theme got worked to death and now superheroes who are ultra-violent fascist goons is almost a cliche.

(* Actually, the Batman originally carried guns and shot bad guys. Then the Comics Code Authority happened, and we wound up with the campy 60s Batman who fought battles with the Riddler on top of giant toasters.)
 

Anne Lyle

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Now we have books where the "heroes" commit genocide and rape and we're supposed to root for them because their enemies are even worse, or because they are occasionally kind to small animals or something. Sometimes these can be quite interesting characters, but I really don't enjoy them as protagonists.

Same here. A lot of people rave about "Prince of Thorns" by Mark Lawrence, but it sounds way too bleak for my tastes. Give me a charming rogue like Douglas Hulick's Drothe or Mark Chadbourn's Will Swyfte any day of the week!
 

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Some good points here.

I don't think it's any coincidence that these "dark gritty" fantasy novels are popping up along the same time as the highly successful, grittier superhero/comic book movies. These darker renditions of the anti-hero/flawed superhero are a pretty big draw, and it seems to me that the fantasy genre is cashing in on that.

Lots of genres, I think, are cashing in on that. Jason Bourne, anyone?

I have a point of interest I'd like to bring up for consideration. I have absolutely no proof that this is so. I'm just curious about what sort of feedback in generates.

Is it possible, just possible, that this a trend of lowering the morality bar?

Idealized heros and superheroes weren't realistic, but they gave us high expectations and inspired us to be more than ourselves. OK, not all of them. Some of them were *too* idealized to be anything other than caricatures.

On the contrary, the dark or anti hero gives us permission (sort of) to accept our flaws and our foibles as just the way we are, and somehow we'll figure out how to make it without aspiring to something higher.

I know that's heavily simplistic. I'm aiming for brevity over breadth. But I'm curious what sort of feedback comes from it.
 

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I think this is in the past, chiefly in the 90s. It was a good reaction to the pure shit fantasy had become by the 80s.
 

Amadan

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Is it possible, just possible, that this a trend of lowering the morality bar?


I'm skeptical of all theories that we're less moral and virtuous than some previous generation, particularly based on trends in popular media.
 

jjdebenedictis

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Really? No worries about pregnancy or STDs? No personal belief in 'the right person'? Only religion can keep people from rabbithood?
And to be fair, not even religion could do that. Pre-marital sex still happened in the days when people were convinced they'd go to hell for eternity if they did it.

Orgasms are a hell of an incentive.

As an aside, I like to be charitable about my fellow human beings, and I believe that humanity's many attempts to ban premarital sex at least started out as pragmatic kindness, not religious extremism.

There are few things that a good-hearted person can do accidentally that are as cruel as creating a child they can't take care of. To sentence a tiny, uncomprehending human being to a childhood of neglect and privation is obscene.

I think all the religious laws stating some variation on, "Don't do it 'til you've settled down!" started out as a desperate attempt to keep this from happening.
 
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