Making precocious children realistic

Lunatique · Dec 31, 2011

My book's two MC's are precocious 12~13 yr-olds. As I'm writing their dialogues and inner thoughts, I got concerned about how the average reader who's not familiar with precocious children might feel.

I was one of those precocious children myself, and I knew I was very different from other children. While I was still a child in many ways and liked many things that children my age liked, I also read literary fiction, listened to classical and jazz and avant-garde, and thought about things like duty and honor, existence, human nature, and my place in the world.

Because I was a precocious child, I can believe the extent to which a child can be precocious, but I've noticed a lot of people who aren't familiar with precocious children can't. For example, I've seen people commenting on things written by twelve/thirteen yr-olds online and refusing to believe someone so young could be so articulate and intelligent--to the point of calling bullshit and claiming that they were written by older teens or adults masquerading as children. And if it's videos of precocious children, some will make snarky remarks about how these children were brain-washed by their parents and forced to memorize speeches. I've seen comments like that made about Severn Suzuki's speech to the United Nations at age twelve (you can find it on youtube), or Jonathan Krohn's videos (also can be found on youtube) talking about his book. But why is it so hard to believe, when we have young authors like Nancy Yi Fan and Jamila Pegues and Sara Samarasinghe who are legitimate young authors?

My MC's are a lot like I was as a kid. They read literary fiction. They listen to sophisticated music. They think and talk about things that other children don't care about and probably can't really understand. (They are also both abused and bullied, so they find sanctuary in each other, feeling that they are soulmates.)

So my concern is whether I should just write my MC's as I see them, or should I make them more like normal children so they seem less exotic/unrealistic, or make them a bit older--around fifteen or so? Do you feel precocious children who are intelligent, articulate, soulful, and have high emotional intelligence are hard to believe in?

thebloodfiend · Dec 31, 2011

I don't know if you finished typing your post. What kind of precocious kid do you mean? A virtuoso? A math genius? A philosopher?

Not all of them are the same and some might excel in one field and completely flunk in another.

escritora · Dec 31, 2011

Luna probably means someone like Scout in To Kill a Mockingbird where she's "wise" beyond her years.

Lunatique · Dec 31, 2011

Sorry, I don't know why my original post was cut off like that. I've rewritten it again--please read.

thebloodfiend · Dec 31, 2011

Lunatique said:
I was one of those precocious children myself, and I knew I was very different from other children. While I was still a child in many ways and liked many things that children my age liked, I also read literary fiction, listened to classical and jazz and avant-garde, and thought about things like duty and honor, existence, human nature, and my place in the world.

So did I. I didn't care so much about my place in the world, though. And my parents were into Jazz/Avante-Garde stuff (Sun Ra, Alice Coltrane, etc...), so naturally, I wasn't.

My MC's are a lot like I was as a kid. They read literary fiction. They listen to sophisticated music. They think and talk about things that other children don't care about and probably can't really understand. (They are also both abused and bullied, so they find sanctuary in each other, feeling that they are soulmates.)

The definition of sophisticated music varies. I mean, just because someone listens to Jazz, that doesn't mean they're smart. They could just be a snob. But what kind of things do they think about? World peace? The destruction of the US? The adverse effects of genetically modified food? I was one of those precocious kids and I was never bullied or abused. I, however, was kind of a bully.

My biggest concern here is that you're adhering to the stereotype of the super smart kid that no one understands who's listening to music that no one else listens to and reading books that other kids are forced to read in HS. Just because I was "precocious" that doesn't mean I enjoyed reading Plato and Dickens in middle school. I might've understood it, and I might've appreciated it, but I wasn't doing it voluntarily.

The other precocious kids I knew were completely obnoxious snobs who thought they were better than everyone else because they were in advance classes, listened to Miles Davis, and read "sophisticated" books. I got bored after my first semester with them and started slacking off and getting into trouble. Eventually, my parents took me out of school.

So my concern is whether I should just write my MC's as I see them, or should I make them more like normal children so they seem less exotic/unrealistic, or make them a bit older--around fifteen or so?

There's no such thing as a normal child. Every child is different. Everyone is full of surprises. I think you should stop thinking of your characters as special. Just because I'm smart, that doesn't mean I'm any different than anyone else or any more sophisticated. Your characters will seem unrealistic if everyone else seems stupid compared to them. Or if they're the singular outcasts for no reason whatsoever. I mean, some of the "stupidest" people I know are actually pretty talented in areas that I fail in. While it is easy for me to learn, I'm generally unmotivated in most areas of my life. Those with greater motivation than me will naturally succeed in the long run.

Do you feel precocious children who are intelligent, articulate, soulful, and have high emotional intelligence are hard to believe in?

Not at all. But pretty much everyone has one area in their life where they're articulate, soulful, and highly intelligent.

You should be more concerned that you aren't writing a self-insert Mary Sue martyr. You should take one of your smart characters and one of your average characters and put them side by side for a pro/con analysis.

As for Scout, in To Kill A Mockingbird, I thought she was kind of average. I wasn't overly impressed with her characterization. I am, however, glad she wasn't an Ender Wiggin.

virtue_summer · Dec 31, 2011

Lunatique said:
I was one of those precocious children myself, and I knew I was very different from other children. While I was still a child in many ways and liked many things that children my age liked, I also read literary fiction, listened to classical and jazz and avant-garde, and thought about things like duty and honor, existence, human nature, and my place in the world.

I read all sorts of books and listened to all types of music as a kid. Does that mean I was precocious? I always thought it meant I was curious. As for the philosophical musings, you're not giving other kids enough credit. Many kids start thinking of those things as they head into the teenage years. It's trying to figure out the world around them and their place in it. I did it. My friends did it. We had more conversations about stuff like that when I was a kid than I've had as an adult. Adults figure they know the world already. Kids are the ones still figuring it out. I think you're worrying too much.

Lunatique said:
So my concern is whether I should just write my MC's as I see them, or should I make them more like normal children so they seem less exotic/unrealistic, or make them a bit older--around fifteen or so? Do you feel precocious children who are intelligent, articulate, soulful, and have high emotional intelligence are hard to believe in?

I think there are more kids like that than you seem to think there are. Take aside a lot of those kids who seem stereotypical and actually start to engage with them and there's usually more going on than adults usually think. I don't think it's just the genius or overly precocious kids, either. To answer the question, though, I don't see any problem with your characters being 12/13 and having these qualities. Will some adults complain because the characters don't fit their own image of what a kid is supposed to be? Sure. But it shouldn't stop you from writing them.

Chase · Dec 31, 2011

I was smarter than the average bear and skipped ahead in a small town school, graded peers' papers for the teachers, got an adult library card early, etc. Luckily, I was a tall, strong farm kid and able to minimize getting my butt kicked daily for being so cocky about being "special."

I continued to like school and get excellent marks, but by the time I got to high school, I'd learned to hide my light under several bushels and fit in. I was on the local shooting teams, camped-fished-hunted to be by myself, played unspectacular but enthusiastic sports, and got a steady girl who'd skipped more grades than I did.

We learned to live among those who deem any intelligence above their own a disease. We got the heck out of there and among folks more like us. We often discussed how real genius is learning to get along until you can grow into your brain.

Siri Kirpal · Dec 31, 2011

Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I was "gifted," liked classical music and opera (still do), and read weighty books as a kid. Had intellectual conversations at age 2. Was awfully dumb at fitting in. (Still a problem.)

So, do your kids surprise me? No!

However, like Virtue Summer, I also knew/know LOTS of kids who think weighty thoughts, like classical music, engage in deep conversations, so it's not that uncommon. And if a few adults are going to be small minded, so what?

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

backslashbaby · Dec 31, 2011

I don't think they are hard to believe in at all. Folks often don't like them, though, for various reasons. There really can be a natural aloofness or slight arrogance that comes along with being unapologetically different from one's peers, so it probably all makes sense to a great extent

Probably the older the better, for readers. Then any attitude can also get tied in with adolescent cockiness, maybe! It's rough. Feeling smarter or more sophisticated in any way than anyone else is not encouraged in our culture, so it's not like a precocious child has it easy socially. I'd emphasize that the precociousness is just different, not better than.

kuwisdelu · Dec 31, 2011

If you have experience with it, just write what you know.

What annoyed me as that kind of kid was the writers who had no idea what we were actually like, and wrote "gifted" children like they were some kind of mutant geniuses who do things like prove the Riemann hypothesis or the Poincaré conjecture during recess. Yeah... No. Try, sure? Succeed? I think not. Actually, it made me kind of feel like that's what I was supposed to be, or what was expected of me, which was, well, kind of depressing and stressful.

Also, life isn't fair. Plenty of such children are good at multiple things, and don't have anything they explicitly suck at. Some even have good social skills and achieve popularity and status. Alas, I wasn't among that last category.

Lunatique · Dec 31, 2011

thebloodfiend said:
You should be more concerned that you aren't writing a self-insert Mary Sue martyr.

Actually, the violent physical abuse, emotional abuse, and bullying are autobiographical. I'm just writing what I know basically. My wife was a precocious child too (smart, sensitive, kind, and very mature for her age when she was a kid) and went through the same things growing up, and in some ways the book is about us.

The main focus of the book is on the love story and the bond between the two children who are alienated and abused, and have found each other in a world that hasn't been kind to them. Together, it becomes "us against the world" and they find in each other solace, support, and love. I don't want them to be arrogant, snotty, and irritating, though I think almost all children who were precocious knew it and had at least a little bit of awareness of the difference between them and normal kids is a positive--that they are somehow "more"--even if it's not based on intelligence/ability but merely maturity level. Some kids might be snotty about it, while some might just keep to themselves and stay out of everyone's way. My MC's try to stay out of everyone's way.

Anyway, they are supposed to be sympathetic characters--kids that are much more mature than their actual age, who go through terrible things that break your heart. There is a chance that maybe only readers who have been precocious children would find them relatable, and I'm a bit worried about that. But then again, the book is in a way written for people who understand how lonely it felt to be precocious and different. It's a delicate balance--to write about people who are different from the norm, but still relatable and are sympathetic characters.

BTW, I did the Mary Sue test and my MC's are actually totally fine. They scored almost as balanced, believable characters.

thebloodfiend · Dec 31, 2011

Lunatique said:
The main focus of the book is on the love story and the bond between the two children who are alienated and abused, and have found each other in a world that hasn't been kind to them. Together, it becomes "us against the world" and they find in each other solace, support, and love.

I like stories like this, as long as they aren't orchestrated. In fact, it reminds me of the music video for "We Found Love." Only without drugs, Chris Brown-look-a-likes, and strange hallucinations. Watch the video. You'll see what I'm talking about.

I don't want them to be arrogant, snotty, and irritating,

Good. Smart-ass know-it-all snobs are annoying. I just defriended one on Facebook last week.

though I think almost all children who were precocious knew it and had at least a little bit of awareness of the difference between them and normal kids is a positive--that they are somehow "more"--even if it's not based on intelligence/ability but merely maturity level.

You see, there's also a difference between being mature and being intelligent. I'm kind of unsure if you're going for the "little adults" approach or the "child genius" approach. They're two different things. I don't know if you've read Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow, but it's like the difference between Bean and Ender. The former is a little adult. The latter is a child genius.

There is a chance that maybe only readers who have been precocious children would find them relatable, and I'm a bit worried about that.

I don't think you'll have a problem. Artemis Fowl and Ender's Game were top sellers. In fact, most YA these days have wannabe precocious girls as their heroines.

It's a delicate balance--to write about people who are different from the norm, but still relatable and are sympathetic characters.

I hope you balance your other characters as well. Make sure they're interesting. All people have moments where they feel like outsiders, or that the world is against them. I don't think your characters being precocious will be much a problem. If you don't, however, portray the other characters as three dimensional human beings, you will.

BTW, I did the Mary Sue test and my MC's are actually totally fine. They scored almost as balanced, believable characters.

By Mary Sue, I didn't mean to take the test. I just wanted to know if they had the general traits --

- smarter than everyone
- not understood
- more attractive
- flawless (job interview flaws don't count)

-- that kind of thing. I think you're fine on that front. Just don't allow your personal attachment to the MC's to get in the way of developing the other characters. That's a problem I see with a lot of suspected self-inserts.

Lunatique · Dec 31, 2011

thebloodfiend said:
I like stories like this, as long as they aren't orchestrated. In fact, it reminds me of the music video for "We Found Love." Only without drugs, Chris Brown-look-a-likes, and strange hallucinations. Watch the video. You'll see what I'm talking about.

Yeah, definitely no crazy drug-fueled craziness or intense fights like in the video. They share introspective, quiet moments telling each other things they won't ever tell anyone else. They take care of each other (injuries, illness). They share joy and sorrow and trust each other with their lives. And with all that soulful bonding, there's never any sexual overtones--it's very pure puppy love, but at a much deeper level--in fact deeper than most adult relationships.

thebloodfiend said:
You see, there's also a difference between being mature and being intelligent. I'm kind of unsure if you're going for the "little adults" approach or the "child genius" approach. They're two different things. I don't know if you've read Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow, but it's like the difference between Bean and Ender. The former is a little adult. The latter is a child genius.

It's definitely more about them being precociously mature, not necessarily "geniuses." Though they are both quite intelligent and the boy has natural talent for creative endeavors (art, music, writing--basically how I was as a kid, since the boy is more or less autobiographical).

thebloodfiend said:
Just don't allow your personal attachment to the MC's to get in the way of developing the other characters. That's a problem I see with a lot of suspected self-inserts.

There are definitely other characters that I explore--their inner demons, their hardships, their aspirations...etc. The two MC's are definitely not portrayed as superior to everyone else. In fact, they are sometimes seen as broken people who are very unhappy (except when they are together). There's nothing glamorous about their precociousness--it's one tragedy after another and they are put through the wringer. It's a melancholic literary novel at its core, so it's nothing like how precocious children are often portrayed as heroes in genre fiction.

Smish · Dec 31, 2011

I didn't read all the posts in this thread (sorry, I'm tired), but wanted to pop in with two of my favorite MG novels that feature a very precocious child as the main character:

Emma Jean Lazarus Fell Out of a Tree and
Emma Jean Lazarus Fell in Love, by Lauren Tarshis.

kuwisdelu · Dec 31, 2011

Lunatique said:
And with all that soulful bonding, there's never any sexual overtones--

Might I ask why? At 12~13, I'd find that hard to believe.

Lunatique · Jan 1, 2012

kuwisdelu said:
Might I ask why? At 12~13, I'd find that hard to believe.

Because that's how I was at that age (back in the mid-80's, which wasn't exactly an innocent time period, and I lived in California), and the girls I was romantically involved with did not instigate anything sexual either. In fact, I had chances to kiss girls on a few different occasions, but it wasn't until I was 17 that I finally did, and it was a very innocent, gentle kiss that had no sexual overtone whatsoever too.

I was just a very innocent kid. Sure, I had urges and I had access to porn, but somehow, when I was with a girl I had romantic feelings for, I did not connect sex with them. It was purely platonic and I treated them with the utmost respect. A girl once started to strip tease in my room (half jokingly), and I thought my head would explode. It was too much for my young mind to take in.

Captcha · Jan 1, 2012

I don't think it's the precociousness that's worrying me about your characters, but there's definitely something that's... well, that's making me think I don't want to read the book. Now, you're not going to market the book in the same way you're presenting it here, so maybe you're fine, but in case whatever's putting me off comes out in your writing, I'll try to express it.

I think it's that you're comparing the characters to others, and the characters are always coming out on top. That's especially troubling when the story is semi-autobiographical. Your characters don't just have a deep relationship, they have one that's "in fact deeper than most adult relationships." "They think and talk about things that other children don't care about and probably can't really understand." And "they are somehow "more"". I'm not sure... it's more a tone, maybe, rather than something explicit. Despite your statement to the contrary, I'm worried that you think you, and your self-insert characters, are better than your readers. And it's not much fun to read a book written by someone who thinks he's better than you.

Also - I'm a bit worried about your connection between being sexually disinterested and treating women or girls "with the utmost respect". There's nothing disrespectful about being sexually attracted to people. Now that you're married, I assume you're attracted to your wife - does that mean you don't respect her? The Madonna/Whore perception - something for a modern writer to guard against!

Lunatique · Jan 1, 2012

Captcha said:
I don't think it's the precociousness that's worrying me about your characters, but there's definitely something that's... well, that's making me think I don't want to read the book. Now, you're not going to market the book in the same way you're presenting it here, so maybe you're fine, but in case whatever's putting me off comes out in your writing, I'll try to express it.

I think it's that you're comparing the characters to others, and the characters are always coming out on top. That's especially troubling when the story is semi-autobiographical. Your characters don't just have a deep relationship, they have one that's "in fact deeper than most adult relationships." "They think and talk about things that other children don't care about and probably can't really understand." And "they are somehow "more"". I'm not sure... it's more a tone, maybe, rather than something explicit. Despite your statement to the contrary, I'm worried that you think you, and your self-insert characters, are better than your readers. And it's not much fun to read a book written by someone who thinks he's better than you.

Also - I'm a bit worried about your connection between being sexually disinterested and treating women or girls "with the utmost respect". There's nothing disrespectful about being sexually attracted to people. Now that you're married, I assume you're attracted to your wife - does that mean you don't respect her? The Madonna/Whore perception - something for a modern writer to guard against!

That's a legitimate concern, and I can understand why you feel that way.

I think you misunderstood where I'm coming from.

See, a lot of relationships--in fact, the majority of relationships I see around me are not very happy ones. Couples constantly fighting, not opening up to each other, lying to each other, not being supportive of each other, and cheating on each other. Many even marry for passports and money and do not love each other at all. That is why I say the relationship between the boy and the girl is deeper than most adult relationships--they don't have those problems and really love and support one another and open their hearts to each other without reservation. Maybe it's just my social circle that's like that, and your social circle might be very different.

I'm not trying to express that I or my characters are better than my readers. Precocious children are somehow "more," but they are also somehow "less" too, because they often have worse social skills and can't fit in, and they are prone to depression and other problems. The fact that two precocious kids will talk about things that normal typical children might not be interested in or understand is just a simple fact. The reverse is also true.

As for not connecting sexual advances and feelings with romantic feelings--it was simply my own pubescent mindset at the time. It's not as if I carried that mindset all the way into adulthood. By the time I was in my late teens, I was already running around the block like there's no tomorrow--in fact I was a bit of a hound dog as a young man (and settled down when I got married at 30).

I absolutely do not ever want to make it seem like I'm "better" than my readers. I have no idea who my readers will be--they could be doctors, scientists, philosophers, geniuses, and selfless heroes for all I know, and they could all be more accomplished and intelligent than I would ever be in my lifetime. There might be ex-precocious children among my readers too, and maybe when they read my book, they'll catch a glimpse of their younger selves. And if my readers are normal, everyday people, I hope it still makes no difference, because the real story is about them being torn apart and having to find their way back to each other, enduring hardship and pain and never giving up hope along the way. I think that's something universal, and most people can relate to it.

I simply want to write stories that matter to me--ones that resonate with me emotionally and intellectually, while trying to muster as much objectivity as I can, as long as I don't compromise my own creative vision too much.

If I didn't care about being objective and fair, then I wouldn't have been concerned enough to start this thread in the first place. I know I have my biases just like everyone else, and I make an effort to deal with them and try not to let them blind me. If there are negative characteristics in my personality or in my values that will impact my writing negatively, I certainly would want to try and squash them if possible. We are all growing as human beings, not only as writers. I do want to be a better person and I do try to make an effort.

BTW, plenty of characters are written to be "more" or "better" than the average person--that's why we have heroes in stories--characters who achieve something extraordinary or are inspiring figures. But that's not what my book is about at all. My book is a bittersweet, dark fairy tale about love, faith, and sacrifice.

kuwisdelu · Jan 1, 2012

If you keep the non-sexual thing, I think you'll have to raise the issue at some point in your writing and justify why the characters (is it both of them, or just one? — that could be some potential conflict) are like that. Otherwise it might strike some readers (like me, certainly) as rather strange.

skylark · Jan 1, 2012

I don't think having 12-13 year olds not interested in sex is an issue - I know I wasn't, and goodness knows my son isn't (he's also 12).

What made me twitch here was the comment about illness and injury. Don't these kids have parents who would care for them if they're injured or ill?

Being precocious doesn't make them fully functioning adults, even if in many ways they behave and think as adults. I might have adult level conversations with my son about music, or history, but I'm not going to treat him as I would an adult if he throws up or cuts himself. He's still only twelve. I don't see any signs of "still only twelve" in how you describe your characters.

"Do you feel precocious children who are intelligent, articulate, soulful, and have high emotional intelligence are hard to believe in?"

If that's all they do and are? Yes. If they're all that and twelve too? No.

backslashbaby · Jan 1, 2012

If you haven't seen the movie Little Man Tate, I do suggest it. I like how the boy is more mature in many ways than his mother. Since you are talking about an abusive situation, I can definitely see how the child may well be more mature than the parent. I've known non-precocious kids who had to learn to parent their parents

I've also personally known precocious kids who were both more naturally intelligent and mature than their stumbling parents. It's certainly an interesting story, and always sad. I hope you give it a nice ending

mccardey · Jan 1, 2012

I think the big issue with writing precocious children is to write the child, not the precociousness. I rather like bloodfiend's comment

There's no such thing as a normal child.

I've met many, many, many kids some of whom were precocious in all sorts of different areas at different stages. Some of them evened out, some have stayed outside the norms, but no child I've met who was precocious was defining themselves as precocious - nor were the other kids. They might be "brainy" or "nerdy" or "brilliant at science": or - as my son aged 8 once described a classmate who was heavily cerebral "an upright, slow-moving boy" (I adored that description - it was so apt!) but they were kids first. I have found over the years that "precocious" is a term usually reserved for parents to apply, whether rightly or wrongly, to their own kids. It's not something the kids themselves notice or rank.

Having said that (Lord, I do go on, don't I?) it does just strike me that of all the odd little chaps I knew - yes they were almost uniformly behind the curve when it came to sexual development. I don't know why.

Perhaps it was the incessant reading?

jaksen · Jan 1, 2012

Doesn't precocious mean doing things early? I had many a student who talked early or learned math ahead of his or her peers, but later that student's abilities sort of evened out.

But it was hard to tell a parent, yes your son was talking early and reading early and etc. etc. Doesn't mean he's gifted, not necessarily. These parent would push and push and shove their poor kids and I'd catch kids in my gifted class crying because they just couldn't keep up. 'My mom wants me to be a doctor - but what if I want to just work on cars?' That, from a boy who taught himself to read yet who struggled in the middle grades with math.

Or maybe I am thinking of a different definition for precocious. I did not think precocious = gifted. Surely most gifted children are also precocious, but not all precocious children are gifted.

And some gifted children are actually delayed in their ability to speak, read and write, do math, etc.

Lunatique · Jan 1, 2012

skylark said:
What made me twitch here was the comment about illness and injury. Don't these kids have parents who would care for them if they're injured or ill?

Being precocious doesn't make them fully functioning adults, even if in many ways they behave and think as adults. I might have adult level conversations with my son about music, or history, but I'm not going to treat him as I would an adult if he throws up or cuts himself. He's still only twelve. I don't see any signs of "still only twelve" in how you describe your characters.

"Do you feel precocious children who are intelligent, articulate, soulful, and have high emotional intelligence are hard to believe in?"

If that's all they do and are? Yes. If they're all that and twelve too? No.

At some point they run away after something horrible happened--that's why they have to take care of each other. It's a life or death situation. They are both horribly abused--violent beatings and emotional traumas. The only love in their lives come from each other.

jaksen said:
Doesn't precocious mean doing things early? I had many a student who talked early or learned math ahead of his or her peers, but later that student's abilities sort of evened out.

Precociousness can also simply mean unusually mature.

backslashbaby said:
If you haven't seen the movie Little Man Tate, I do suggest it. I like how the boy is more mature in many ways than his mother. Since you are talking about an abusive situation, I can definitely see how the child may well be more mature than the parent. I've known non-precocious kids who had to learn to parent their parents

I've also personally known precocious kids who were both more naturally intelligent and mature than their stumbling parents. It's certainly an interesting story, and always sad. I hope you give it a nice ending

Thanks, I'll check out that movie.

I think you "get" what I'm trying to express, and perhaps because you've known people like I'm describing, it's easier for you to accept.

I personally have know kids and teenagers that were much more intelligent, mature, and responsible than some of the adults around them, and they were not obnoxious in any way. There didn't "show off" their precociousness-they just behaved according to their own set of values and principles--ones that are often different from their "stumbling parents" as you say.

The fact my MC's have lived through a difficult life as kids, with abusive parents (and one of them has a father who abused drugs, so she often has to take care of him when he's totally out of his mind)--they really are forced to grow up quickly and the precociousness if partly thrust upon them.

Making precocious children realistic

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