Is it a taste or style thing?

francist44 · Dec 28, 2011

A question about the usage of 'The, As, With.' Below are 3 examples of basically the start of the same sentence. Context being the first line of a paragraph, actually my fantasy novel. BTW I like 2 best.

1- The ruins of the Palace still smolders, smoke drifts inland on -
2- As the ruins of the Palace smolder, smoke drifts inland on-
3- With the ruins of the Palace still smoldering, smoke drifts inland on-

Is there a rule of sorts? I tend to flip back and forth just not to start too many sentences with any one of the 3 with narration.

buz · Dec 28, 2011

Don't know about 2 and 3, but the first sentence should either have "and" after the "smolders" or a semicolon or should be split in two sentences, since the first clause is a complete statement.

I would guess that 2 and 3 are mostly a matter of taste/style...the nuances of the wording are ever so slightly different, though. In ways that I find I can't adequately articulate...maybe someone smarter?

Michael Murphy · Dec 28, 2011

1 is active and therefore reads better, but one needs to break up the construction of sentences, especially the start of paragraphs. When I started writing novels, I had too many sentences that started with clauses and was hit over the head with that by my critique group until it sank in.

The Lonely One · Dec 28, 2011

francist44 said:
A question about the usage of 'The, As, With.' Below are 3 examples of basically the start of the same sentence. Context being the first line of a paragraph, actually my fantasy novel. BTW I like 2 best.

1- The ruins of the Palace still smolders, smoke drifts inland on -
2- As the ruins of the Palace smolder, smoke drifts inland on-
3- With the ruins of the Palace still smoldering, smoke drifts inland on-

Is there a rule of sorts? I tend to flip back and forth just not to start too many sentences with any one of the 3 with narration.

I don't have a problem with 1 or 2. Three sounds like the smoke drifts inland with the ruins, so seems awkward to me.

One is technically not grammatically correct but I don't think it needs to be changed at all, if you're doing it for a style reason (using the comma for a slightly quicker pace than a period).

CrastersBabies · Dec 28, 2011

I too prefer #1, but agree that there should be "and" or a semicolon.

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 28, 2011

The Lonely One said:
I don't have a problem with 1 or 2. Three sounds like the smoke drifts inland with the ruins, so seems awkward to me.

One is technically not grammatically correct but I don't think it needs to be changed at all, if you're doing it for a style reason (using the comma for a slightly quicker pace than a period).

The first example is grammatically incorrect, but it's because of the agreement error and not the comma. It should read "The ruins of the Palace still smolder..."

The comma could be correct if the sentence is a list of events, eg:

"The ruins of the Palace still smolder, smoke drifts inland on the breeze, and the scent of charred wood warns animals away."

I would personally use the first sentence if this is the beginning of a novel.

Number 2 implies that we are discussing something that has been discussed before, but if this is the first sentence of the novel, that is unlikely.

Number 3 is grammatically correct, but ambiguous, and the first clause would fit better with an animate subject in the second clause. For scene description, the first one is moe effective.

The Lonely One · Dec 28, 2011

Liosse de Velishaf said:
The first example is grammatically incorrect, but it's because of the agreement error and not the comma. It should read "The ruins of the Palace still smolder..."

Totally missed that!

francist44 · Dec 28, 2011

Thanks people. With #1, I didn't realize I left the plural s on smolders; too may rewrites. He're the rest of it:
The ruins of the Palace still smolder, smoke drifts inland on a sea-born breeze.
or should it be?
The ruins of the Palace still smolder as smoke drifts inland on a sea-born breeze.
I'm just nit picking now, I best call it quits.

CrastersBabies · Dec 28, 2011

The Lonely One said:
Totally missed that!

I did too. I feel like we must do penance now, like watch Real Housewives of Beverly Hills or something just to make us feel like we really do have the smarts!

Buffysquirrel · Dec 29, 2011

Lol, I noticed the verb/subject agreement issue, but figured it for a typo as sentence two is correct.

I think I'd go with "The ruins of the palace still smolder and smoke drifts inland on a sea-born breeze."

Using 'as' in that sentence suggests some kind of causal relationship between the smoke drifting inland and the castle still smoldering. I suppose there could be one, because the breeze might be keeping the fire alive, but it's tenuous.

The sentence beginning with As is also fine. I don't like the With sentence, but that's probably a matter of taste.

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 29, 2011

"As" is a subordinating conjunction, which is why it feels like it's implying some sort of relationship. By starting the sentence with "as" you make "Smoke drifts inland" the main clause, and thus to a reader you are implying that that is the important part.

Using "and" or a comma separated list implies that the clauses are of equal importance.

francist44 · Dec 29, 2011

That should do it for me, whereas both clauses are of equal importance.
The ruins of the Palace still smolder; smoke drifts inland on a sea-born breeze.

One last question on this -really- I have 'sea-born' before 'inland' to bolster the image of the Palace being at the water's edge. However, is sea-born needed; will the word inland alone suffice and read as well?
The ruins of the Palace still smolder; smoke drifts inland.

Thanks

Saint09 · Dec 29, 2011

francist44 said:
That should do it for me, whereas both clauses are of equal importance.
The ruins of the Palace still smolder; smoke drifts inland on a sea-born breeze.

One last question on this -really- I have 'sea-born' before 'inland' to bolster the image of the Palace being at the water's edge. However, is sea-born needed; will the word inland alone suffice and read as well?
The ruins of the Palace still smolder; smoke drifts inland.

Thanks

I like including both inland and sea-born breeze. It really paints a picture of the palace hugging the coastline. Also, I consider inland to be a direction...as opposed to drifting along the coast or out to sea. But that could be a matter of taste. I read a lot, and the way you have it doesn't strike me as redundant at all. Again, matter of taste? I kind of like worry.

Buffysquirrel · Dec 30, 2011

francist44 said:
However, is sea-born needed; will the word inland alone suffice and read as well?
The ruins of the Palace still smolder; smoke drifts inland.

I think you need something to imply the palace is on the coast. Inland could just mean towards the interior of a country rather than towards its coast, which might not be nearby.

buz · Dec 30, 2011

I like the sound of the sea-born (or is it supposed to be "borne"?) and don't find it excessive.

("Born" would mean the sea birthed it; "Borne" would mean carried by the sea)

francist44 · Dec 30, 2011

I will stick with the sea-born version. Whereas, I like the sound of it that way better, I'm glad it's OK. I'm going to post chapter I and maybe 2 and 3 in SYW later.

Thanks people

Is it a taste or style thing?

francist44

Tenacious to a fault

buz

can't stop hemorrhaging emojis

Michael Murphy

The Lonely One

Why is a raven like a writing desk?

CrastersBabies

Burninator!

Liosse de Velishaf

The Lonely One

Why is a raven like a writing desk?

francist44

Tenacious to a fault

CrastersBabies

Burninator!

Buffysquirrel

Liosse de Velishaf

francist44

Tenacious to a fault

Saint09

is a very hoopy frood.

Buffysquirrel

buz

can't stop hemorrhaging emojis

francist44

Tenacious to a fault