Need a little nudge/advice/suggestion about a scene

acelticdream · Dec 26, 2011

Yesterday, I jumped to the ending of my book (last 10+ some odd pages, whatever it ends up being) because I was having trouble segueing an earlier scene.

Small bit of background ...

4 detectives + consultant are standing around in squad room. I picked up at the point the consultant says a flippant joke that outs the killer in the room. Despite being angry, everyone rubs it off and part ways for the night.

SCENE
2 of the detectives stay behind because one has his doubts. He runs through all the clues and other things, convincing the second detective that perhaps they do know who the killer is after all (and I guess I should say it since it might help me with the scene in question - the killer is one of the detectives on the case).

Then they realize the consultant's life is now possibly in danger and off they dash.
END SCENE

SCENE
We're in the car with the consultant on his way home. A bit of inner dialogue, fairly short.
END SCENE

SCENE
We're with the killer ... a bit of inner dialogue, setups the tone of his anger and that he's following the consultant.
END SCENE

SCENE
Killer goes to consultant's apartment, knocks, consultant lets him in. The typical questions fly back n forth about the "whys" and such. Killer pulls out his gun for the enevitable "I'm gonna kill you now" thing.

The 2 detectives arrive, bust open the door, guns pointed at killer.

SCENE STALLS ...

Naturally there may be the typical "Put the gun down, you don't want to do this" type dialogue. But I'm stuck in that how long do I do the 'standoff' ... them eyeing each other, the "don't do it" dialogue, et al. Since there is history between the 3 detectives, you know there will be a bit of "we thought we knew you" type dialogue.

It just seems that once you enter this scene, it's like entering a roundabout .... unless you are an experienced driver and can exit to your desired street, you can be going in circles forever LOL. Sorry - parodies of people driving in roundabouts came to mind - don't know why.

Naturally, I don't want this scene to be typical, but yet you can't without going beyond the realistic in such a situation.

I know you don't have a whole lot to go on, but if someone who can written a similar type scene can give me pointers on how to solve the problem of not droning on in a hopeless loop ... I would certainly appreciate it.

robjvargas · Dec 26, 2011

This is, essentially, a hostage situation. I'm not familiar with specifics, but it occurs to me that there are procedures and protocols that apply, and if they four are as close as I infer, then they all know those protocols equally well.

There's a tension that will develop there. Did the last two call for backup when (if?) they saw the killer's car outside the house? Protocol, I imagine, says yes. Would they both actually enter, or would one have gone "around back" (literally or figuratively)? And, again, whatever the protocol, the killer, being a cop, would know about this.

If the killer won't give up, then he knows he's dead. He knows the others cannot let him go. There, I think, is the key to the scene. Someone will die. Unless the killer gives up.

acelticdream · Dec 26, 2011

Hey Rob,

Thanks for chiming in.

I thought about the 2 detectives calling in for backup but then thought - these guys have worked together for x number of years, and they kind of want to handle it on their own, hush hush type thing. *shrugs* I don't know - am torn about that.

Honestly - I never thought to label this has a hostage situation, especially since I don't have the killer physically touching the consultant. But, since the killer does have his gun pulled ... yeah, I can see the hostage part of it. Ack! Another element to consider. hehe

I'm also still torn about whether or not the killer dies. Both ways seem cliche. Is there a 3rd option? Oh wait! A worm hole opens in the apartment and sucks the killer through. It does open things for a sequel perhaps. LOL Just kidding.

Still - when do you know to cut the endless loop of "don't do this" ... "stay back or I'll kill him" .... "come on man, don't do this" .... "I mean it, stay back!" type dialogue?

I definitely don't want this scene to be one of this really quick wrap-ups ... but I also don't want it drawn out for 10 pages either.

I dread writing this scene as I don't want to get stuck on that loop ... but I guess I have to in order to just get it out of my system and then try and find a way make the situation not only realistic, but unique and not a let-down.

Jilly McGilly · Dec 26, 2011

I was writing a chapter where two of my characters were having a verbal fight. I put them in a paddle boat on a lake -- talk about going in circles! Those two must have been circling that lake for ages while I tried to figure out the scene!

Originally, I had the MC upset about 3 or 4 different problems, while the other character confronted her about 2 or 3 different issues. Oh, and he also professed his love for her. It was waaay too much. My problem was I didn't know what the point of the scene was.

What helped me end the scene, and get them back to shore, was to figure out what *thing* the story must needed from that scene. In my case, I needed to establish the fact that my mc had some major self-destructive tendencies and push her towards that self-destruction. Once I whittled it down, the fight scene put my mc on the path towards some really self-destructive, plot-advancing stuff.

So, I'd say write to advance to the end of the scene (which in your case is also the end of your novel, no?). What does your story need? Does the killer get away, does he kill one of his colleagues, do his colleagues shoot him or arrest him? Whichever it is, the dialogue and action of the standoff should build towards that ending.

Or, you could always just stick them in a paddle boat and let the ducks take care of them.

acelticdream · Dec 26, 2011

Ummmm, there's no lake in an apartment building in the middle of Chicago. Though, perhaps the pigeons might do enough damage ...

So yeah ... kill the killer or just have him get arrested? I guess that is something important I'll have to determine period. Duh! =)

{a few moments later ...}

Ok, I think I've reached a decision on that. He's goin' down! *insert maniacal laughter*

Spent the last 20 minutes reading and re-reading the scene thus far, up to the point of the 2 detectives bursting through the door. Did some minor editing of things that blatantly stood out. Ended up with 16 more words *shrugs*.

But the guys are all still standing there point guns at each other. I think one is now tapping his foot impatiently and the consultant is thinking about going to lay down for a nap since I'm not having them do anything. =)

AnnieColleen · Dec 26, 2011

BEyre said:
I think one is now tapping his foot impatiently and the consultant is thinking about going to lay down for a nap since I'm not having them do anything. =)

Try walking through the scene from each one's perspective, as detailed as you can get. What details are they noticing about the scene, about the other characters? What immediate goals do they have - not "get him to let the guy go", but maybe "move over to where I can use the couch for cover" or "get him to look at me, not the hostage". Likewise for the killer - what is he noticing, what's the next immediate thing he's trying to do? Personalities will influence what you come up with; so will protocols - if they're bending the rules by not calling for backup, is one of them regretting it and wondering if he can drop back and make the call now? Is one of them eyeing the window hoping/not hoping they show up anyway? Hopefully that will point you towards the next logical step for these characters in this situation.

acelticdream · Dec 26, 2011

Annie,

Excellent post. And close to what I've been doing these last few minutes since last posting.

I have removed one of the detectives from the door. He's going to show up at the window soon (fire escape ladder don't you know!).

I am trying to do the different perspectives ... but yet I don't want to be jumping around POVs either ... and yet again, I do want to convey each character's thoughts from their own perspective (ones that are typically shown as italics).

Everyone's help is certainly helping me control my jumbled thoughts on this scene ... narrow my focus down ... and slowly work it through. Excellently what I was hoping for!

Thank you all! But keep the suggestions coming - I'm still working on the scene! =)

When I've finished the scene and gone over it for the obvious mistakes and what-nots ... I may just post it in the SYW section for deeper scrutiny.

ironmikezero · Dec 26, 2011

One of the two detectives, in a burst of inspired insight, announces to the killer that he is under arrest and begins to recite the Miranda Warning (You have the right to remain silent, etc.).

The killer/cop, unavoidably disturbed to hear that which he has so often advised others, wavers in his purpose. Stark realization washes across his countenance as he pales in despair - there is no way out, save one.

To the horror of his colleagues, he eats his gun.

...How does something like that work for you?

robjvargas · Dec 26, 2011

BEyre said:
Hey Rob,

Thanks for chiming in.

Well... mystery isn't my genre, so I hope you're keeping a few grains of salt handy. But I hope I can help a bit.

BEyre said:
I thought about the 2 detectives calling in for backup but then thought - these guys have worked together for x number of years, and they kind of want to handle it on their own, hush hush type thing. *shrugs* I don't know - am torn about that.

But I gathered that these X years includes the consultant. So you think one friend, a compatriot, is about to kill another friend, though on the outside to some extent.

BEyre said:
Honestly - I never thought to label this has a hostage situation, especially since I don't have the killer physically touching the consultant. But, since the killer does have his gun pulled ... yeah, I can see the hostage part of it. Ack! Another element to consider. hehe

And would the killer keep that distance? Instinct tells me not. That consultant is the only thing keeping the killer from being shot. So I could see the killer physically keeping the consultant as a shield, or possibly barricading in a room.

BEyre said:
I'm also still torn about whether or not the killer dies. Both ways seem cliche. Is there a 3rd option? Oh wait! A worm hole opens in the apartment and sucks the killer through. It does open things for a sequel perhaps. LOL Just kidding.

Sounds reasonable to this Sci-Fi junkie.

There is a third option, though. It's ugly. Cover-up. I don't think you want to go there. Just a feeling that you want a "good" resolution. There has to be SOME foreshadowing leading up to this. And it likely alters the character of the entire book if you go there.

Still, they know each other, they don't know the victims. Or do they? And what is the perceived caliber of the victims? Can they rationalize this in some way? That shouldn't just suddenly show up. So, again, some foreshadowing.

BEyre said:
Still - when do you know to cut the endless loop of "don't do this" ... "stay back or I'll kill him" .... "come on man, don't do this" .... "I mean it, stay back!" type dialogue?

Well... then there's option 4: the killer convinces all that he/she is not, in fact, the killer. It's a frame-up.

"We thought we knew ya, man."

"C'mon! Think about it. You do know me! Can you really believe that I'd do this?"

But then there's that pink elephant in the room. Why is he in that house with his gun drawn?

BEyre said:
I definitely don't want this scene to be one of this really quick wrap-ups ... but I also don't want it drawn out for 10 pages either.

I dread writing this scene as I don't want to get stuck on that loop ... but I guess I have to in order to just get it out of my system and then try and find a way make the situation not only realistic, but unique and not a let-down.

Why not a let-down? You know your characters. I don't. But a dark, less-than-honorable ending could break the cliches, and lead to memorable ending.

I have to say, it sounds like you might be fighting your characters a bit. You know where this is going, and don't want to go there. But that could easily be me inserting my own style of treating the characters as actual people and letting them tell me the story.

acelticdream · Dec 26, 2011

Rob,

Thanks again for your "food for thought".

No, the consultant is just that, a consultant for this case. Without giving away a lot of the plot, think of him as a darker (and I don't mean hair) version of Richard Castle (tv show). The killer followed him home because the consultant made an off-the-cuff joke that outed the killer to his colleges.

At the point where the now-one detective bursts through the door, the killer hadn't yet approached the consultant to make the physical contact that would be later used as a shield as you described. They were just having a little dialogue back n forth when they were interrupted.

Perhaps that interruption happened too early? Hmmmm. *rubs chin*

{a moment later ...}

Ok, ok ... I think I have something worked out.

See - this is why I asked for help ... just needed some questions and scenarios presented to get my mind churning. Before I just kept staring at a blank page and the only things I could think of were from scenes of shows and movies I've watched.

Ok, back to work while the aroma of spaghetti wafts over to my desk (hubby is cooking tonight!). =)

frimble3 · Dec 26, 2011

1. Maybe the reason the two detectives are behaving stupidly is that they're not really sure the killer is guilty? They want confirmation of their suspicions before they destroy a guy's career, if not actually kill him. It would give some real questions to ask, at least.
2. If they've known the killer for years, they know something about how he works: is he the guy who would ordinarily be talking a suspect into surrendering? the guy who turns every interaction into an interrogation because he just has to know why things happen? Or is he the guy who's first response to everything is a little violence?
This would colour their responses to his actions.
3. I can't see them not calling for back-up. If they've deduced that he's a killer, are they planning to let him walk away? How can they handle it 'hush, hush, on their own' if it's going to end in death or arrest? Even if he surrenders to them, they're going to have to take him back under arrest. Unless they're planning not to?
Or, if you need the distraction of an outside police presence (which would interrupt the back and forth, and draw things to a conclusion) maybe an earlier threat to the consultant would have had the police department flag her for extra protection, and at the start of the next shift an officer comes around to check on her? "If we can only keep him talking until X o'clock, someone will be coming by?"

gothicangel · Dec 27, 2011

robjvargas said:
There's a tension that will develop there. Did the last two call for backup when (if?) they saw the killer's car outside the house? Protocol, I imagine, says yes. Would they both actually enter, or would one have gone "around back" (literally or figuratively)? And, again, whatever the protocol, the killer, being a cop, would know about this.

I agree with Rob here. If the two detectives don't call for back-up [which would be strange as the starting point is a police station] what they do next is illegal.

It will also be inadmissable in court. Why blow a potential trial? Any evidence or confession couldn't be used in court.

And if you're going to get into a hostage situation, you want people who have been specifically trained to deal with hostage situations.

brianjanuary · Dec 27, 2011

How about a nice twist?

What if you've led the reader to believe that the Bad Detective is the killer, but it turns out he's only been masquerading as the killer, allowing the Good Detectives (who are in on the trick) to cast suspicion on him to draw out the real killer?

Or there's someone with a sniper rifle across the street from the apartment who kills the Bad Detective after the Good Detectives come to arrest him?

Or the consultant turns out to be the real killer?

acelticdream · Dec 27, 2011

frimble -

Thank you for providing those thoughtful questions.While some aspects of your questions no longer apply after I fiddled with the scene some more last night, the remaining aspects do - and will add them to my worksheet that is helping me eliminate scenarios and think up others.

gothicangel -

You're right about the no backup. Last night, when I was working more on the scene, I did incorporate that in. I should have known better, so I don't know why I didn't want to do the backup. Just a silly error on my part.

Brian ... Brian ... Brian -

You, my dear, are making my head spin! *evil grin* I think you may have just slightly altered my book for me. Funny thing, I did originally have a couple of scenarios jotted down as to who the real killer was ... and I thought I was being unique in having a fellow officer do it.

I did have the consultant as a possible early on in the brainstorming step, but thought, "nah, too cliche" ... BUT ... if I really work it right ...

The thing is with my book ... I really want to try hard to make it so the cops and the readers have the same clues and BOTH are trying to work out the crime(s) together if you will. I've read too many books where I've figured out the killer long before the cops/PI ever does, just because the author has provided an omni POV that shows things the cops/PI didn't get to see. So, I have to be careful and not be too cliche or obvious with who the killer is - ya know?

acelticdream · Dec 27, 2011

I just spent the last hour typing up a synopsis of the book. It's just overall, not scene by scene. But it goes through the stages of the story - mentions the suspects, clues and red herrings, and the motives behind what certain characters do.

I just want to thank everyone who helped out in this thread. Not only have you given me a better perspective on how the climatic scene should play out, but you also helped me more define the story overall.

There will be some shifts in who does what in the story, but it doesn't entirely change my story as a whole. My original concept is still very much intact.

Now to write, write, write! =)

Need a little nudge/advice/suggestion about a scene

acelticdream

Just me ... dreaming and writing.

robjvargas

acelticdream

Just me ... dreaming and writing.

Jilly McGilly

Crumpled!

acelticdream

Just me ... dreaming and writing.

AnnieColleen

Invisible Writer

acelticdream

Just me ... dreaming and writing.

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW

robjvargas

acelticdream

Just me ... dreaming and writing.

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

gothicangel

Toughen up.

brianjanuary

acelticdream

Just me ... dreaming and writing.

acelticdream

Just me ... dreaming and writing.