Campaign mode vs. Cheat mode (because I'm too afraid to tell you what this post is really about)

Escape Artist · Dec 21, 2011

Most of what I've written up to now has been in first person (whether past or present tense) but as I'm still fairly new to the whole novel-writing thing, I'm learning a great deal about what works for me and what doesn't, and though I love first person, it doesn't seem to be working.

The best thing I can liken the situation to is a video game - campaign mode vs. "cheat" mode, if you will.

In campaign mode, your objectives are clear. First you accomplish this goal, then this one, then this one, and so forth until you beat the game. There is also (at least in some games) a sense of urgency as you are given a limited amount of time in which to accomplish these tasks.

In "cheat" mode, there's no objective other than to let loose, relax, and have fun with no consequences suffered. I'm thinking specifically of games like Grand Theft Auto where you can roam the world freely and do whatever the heck you want, explore whatever you want to with no one riding your case about it.

If you haven't guessed yet, third person is campaign mode while first person is "cheat" mode. At least for me.

Writing in third person allows me to get outside the story and see it for what it is - see what needs to be done and when - while writing in first person is like waking up in the stomach of an unknown creature and then being asked to name said creature based on my limited knowledge from inside his gut. Yeah, eventually I might just figure it out, but it'd take a lot of time.

What does all this have to do with voice? I'll tell you. When you're playing GTA in a "cheat" mode, it's no longer the developer's game. It becomes your game. You make it your own. Same thing with first person. It's not the writer's story, it's your story, your voice (you being the character). You play it however you want. But pull out of cheat mode, and it's in the developer's (the writer's) hands once again. The writer's hands and voice. Am I making any sense here?

What I feel I lose in voice when switching from first person to third, I gain in objectivity, and vice versa. What I feel I gain in voice when switching from third person to first, I lose in objectivity.

Is there a way to combine the two? The objectivity of third with the unique character voice of first? Any examples of books that do this well? I'm looking specifically for books with multiple perspectives using third person POV. Is this even something I should worry about? Is this just a given tradeoff between first and third?

Thanks!

mirandashell · Dec 21, 2011

Ermmm.... I don't know. Because I'm not sure what you're talking about. I don't play games.

Are you writing in close third?

Bufty · Dec 21, 2011

I think you're overthinking whatever it is you are thinking about.

Williebee · Dec 21, 2011

I get it, and can relate. My suggestion would be a double trip through "the game", first time in third person, then in first.

Pick a passage done in third and write it again in first, see what happens. See if it is more immediate. Then, if you need the third person in order to avoid "head hopping", see what you can adapt.

YMMV, and all that. But it is something that was shown to me at the Novels In Progress Workshop, and it tightened up and "active voiced" my writing a great deal.

robjvargas · Dec 21, 2011

I don't get the "My game" vs "developer's game." In something you're writing, you're both, IMO.

That said, I'm with the double-dipping idea. Try passages each way. You may find that the story flows better one way vs the other. Of course, there's always first person past tense, where you can foreshadow more, and even present that perspective your character may not have seen at the time.

SRHowen · Dec 21, 2011

Close third and first are so close sometimes, if written well, the only clue it is in 1st is the use of the word I.

You know you have written good 1st person when someone says--that was 1st person ok I guess it was.

quicklime · Dec 21, 2011

Bufty said:
I think you're overthinking whatever it is you are thinking about.

this.

you write, i assume you edit to distill everything into something clear and concise....except in this post?

Dreity · Dec 21, 2011

Nerd here, and I understand what you mean.

I wrote exclusively first-person for years, with varying tenses. Since there are two POV characters in my WIP, I wanted to play around with third person limited for the first time.

Now, I love first-person narratives. I love getting right inside a character's and becoming them, but - perhaps this was due to my inexperience as a writer - I found it was difficult to make my characters something other than, well, me.

Third-person has made it easier for me to psychologically distance myself from the character and say, "This is what I would do, but this is what X would do", and as a result, I think I'm writing more interesting characters now. That said, my experiences with first-person still show, and the result is an intimate but still fairly objective writing style which I'm growing fond of.

I guess I could have just said what everyone else did: write the same thing from multiple perspectives and you'll probably learn something different about the characters in each one.

He's mentioned a lot, but George R. R. Martin really does do a good job writing a third person POV that reveal the same things about a character you could find in first-person narrative while still giving the reader the advantage of seeing very different multiple viewpoints, and piecing together the "truth" from there.

DancingMaenid · Dec 21, 2011

I get it. And I have to second the suggestion a couple people have made about close third. It can be very similar to first person, sometimes, and it's my preferred style.

pandaponies · Dec 21, 2011

*raises hand* Game nerd who understood the post here, too

"I'm looking specifically for books with multiple perspectives using third person POV." --> I recently read Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders trilogy and would recommend looking at her books for a good example of how this can be done. She writes in close 3rd following a LOT of different characters, and I could flip any of the books open to a random page and easily tell which character's section I was in with little to no context because the writing follows them very personally, almost like 1st person. With close 3rd it IS pretty doable!

LindaJeanne · Dec 21, 2011

I'm currently experimenting with writing my first draft in 1st Person, with the intent of changing it to Close 3rd in the revision.

The novel has multiple points of view, and writing each of them in first is helping me find each character's unique voice and personality. But while it's possible to have multiple first-person characters, I don't think it works in this case. So, my intent is to try to keep the heart of what I find in 1st person when I go back and revise to close 3rd.

Mr Flibble · Dec 21, 2011

My third seems to be very close to first (excepting pronouns) but if I get you...not sure I do...it'll work depending on how you use it, but are you asking that? Not 100% sure ofthe question, Third isn't often objective, but first only works in some stories depending... soo... I'm lost

Can you state what you are after here?

BTW I would have swapped th modes around. or said they can both be both.

Layla Nahar · Dec 21, 2011

I don't play games that much, but get what your talking about and I think it's really interesting analogy, and an interesting point, that cheat mode is *your* game, campaign mode, developers -

The objectivity of third with the unique character voice of first?
try reading philip K dick.
I'm looking specifically for books with multiple perspectives using third person POV.
well, this is your lucky day. he uses close 3rd, from muliple characters. his 3rd person narration is very vivid, very internal. But from the 3rd multiple POV you get the overview of the third

Is this just a given tradeoff between first and third?

*making* art is engineering. there is always a tradeoff with materials.

dangerousbill · Dec 21, 2011

I get it, and it explains why I prefer first person over third. It's more exciting to experience a story from the inside, even though I misinterpret things and can't know everything that's going on. It's easier to inhabit a character in first person, at least it is to me.

LindaJeanne · Dec 22, 2011

Escape Artist said:
Is there a way to combine the two? The objectivity of third with the unique character voice of first? Any examples of books that do this well? I'm looking specifically for books with multiple perspectives using third person POV.

Tad Williams "Otherland" series (City of Golden Shadow is the first book) has multiple 3rd person POV each with a unique voice in the narration. (Ranging from a six-year-old-girl to a teenage boy with a terminal illness to a university professor to a psychopathic killer to quite a few others.).

It's especially noticeable in the bits from the 6-year-old's point of view. Even though it's in 3rd person, the things that are described are what a small child would notice and find significant, in the language a small child might use. But enough information is provided to give the reader a broader view of what's going on than the child's perspective.

jaksen · Dec 22, 2011

Another example of too much thinking!!!

(And for me too much exclamation points.)

Just write the way you want, the way the story naturally unfolds. First person, third person, omni, who cares? What matters is the story, not your analysis of your own writing.

And this comes from a person who does love to analyze stuff. But when it gets this complicated ...

Is there any way you can just sit in a comfortable corner somewhere and just write?

djunamod · Dec 22, 2011

I get the question and I appreciate the complex thinking. I don't think POV is something you can really take lightly for a novel as I've read novels where the POV has proved a "make or break" moment for me as a reader (though, admittedly, most of those novels were using something like second person, which is one of my writing pet peeves!)

To answer your question from my perspective, I have to give an answer that I hate (because I teach college English courses and my students give this answer when they're trying to get out of thinking about what the real answer to the question is): it depends.

What I mean is, for me, it depends on the story and the character(s). Do I feel that the story is best told from a personal perspective that is up close and personal and subjective, not necessarily seeing what is right, truthful, and honest? Or do I want an observer who sees and processes what is going on around them in a way that steps back from the experience?

My personal preference is third person because I'm by nature an observer and processor. I like to sit back and observe what's going on around me and process what people are saying, doing, reading between the lines, feeling the gestures, etc. But sometimes I use first person when I feel that the story would benefit from it, especially if its a story where the MC is not being honest or isn't seeing what is really going on.

Djuna

BethS · Dec 22, 2011

Escape Artist said:
Is there a way to combine the two? The objectivity of third with the unique character voice of first?

You seem to be making an assumption that third-person is an objective POV. It's not, or not necessarily.

Limited, or intimate, third-person is much like first-person. You write from within the viewpoint of a character or characters. You don't write anything they don't personally know, experience, observe, or feel. It works well to engage the reader.

Omniscient has an overall narrator, through which the story and all points of view are filtered. The narrator can tell the reader things the characters don't know.

Objective third-person is like having a camera in the corner that records the action but makes no comment on it. It can't see inside anyone's thoughts, so the reader has to guess why characters are doing what they do. This has a limited use in modern storytelling. Wouldn't recommend it for an entire novel.

Escape Artist · Dec 22, 2011

I'm glad that most of you got what I was talking about, but for those that didn't: When I write in first person, the writing sounds like the character - the way they would talk, the words they'd use, etc. When I write in third person, it just sounds like me. So when it comes to sheer voice, I'd pick first over third.

But I've been having problems with first person in that I can't seem to get outside of their head to see what the big picture is. I often don't know what their motivations are (I myself don't know why I do the things I do, I just do them, you know?) and I sure as heck can't see the forest (the story itself) because I'm stuck too far up a Douglas fir's a$$. With third, I can more easily see why the characters do what they do and where they need to go and a bonus is that it's easier to allow them to hurt, to go through whatever trials are needed in order for them to grow. In first it's too personal, too close. I'm sure that sounds nuts, but it's true and yes I am aware that they aren't really me, but still...

The question I had is, how can I combine the unique character voice of first and still be afforded the writer's objectivity of third? I think the whole writing it in first person first and then going back with third or vice versa is a great idea.

Yes, I over-think. I know I do. Alcohol helps with that, but I can't seem to write while drinking. What kind of writer am I?

And yes, I am a nerd. Always have been. Always will be.

Thanks for the rec's everybody...

Escape Artist · Dec 22, 2011

And just to clarify...

When I say 'objective' I'm not referring to the whole subjective vs. objective thing when it comes to third person.

Maybe objective was the wrong word to use, though I can't think of another to use in its place. All I'm saying is that, for me, writing in third person allows me enough distance to see the story for what it is and what it needs to be without my own feelings getting in the way. I'm talking about objectivity as a writer. I would definitely be using the subjective version of third person in regards to the story itself.

Layla Nahar · Dec 22, 2011

jaksen said:
Another example of too much thinking!!!

But when it gets this complicated ...

I humbly submit that one man's over-thinking is another man's process. Myself, I'm grateful for the insight about cheat mode/game mode & POV that the OP shared

Escape Artist said:
I write in first person, the writing sounds like the character - the way they would talk, the words they'd use, etc.

with first person in that I can't seem to get outside of their head to see what the big picture is.

The question I had is, how can I combine the unique character voice of first and still be afforded the writer's objectivity of third?

Two suggestions - one, use close 3rd with multiple POVs (multiple POVs add up to the objectivity) See my suggestion above for my opinion of a great example of this.
The other would be to write in omni, and peek into the heads of you characters when the 'camera' is close to them. if that makes sense.

Layla Nahar · Dec 22, 2011

Dreity said:
He's mentioned a lot, but George R. R. Martin really does do a good job writing a third person POV that reveal the same things about a character you could find in first-person narrative while still giving the reader the advantage of seeing very different multiple viewpoints, and piecing together the "truth" from there.

I haven't read him yet, but thanks for sharing this about Martin.

Campaign mode vs. Cheat mode (because I'm too afraid to tell you what this post is really about)

Escape Artist

Plotting her escape...

mirandashell

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Williebee

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.

robjvargas

SRHowen

Erotica is not a four letter word!

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

Dreity

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!

pandaponies

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

LindaJeanne

On a small world west of wonder

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

dangerousbill

Retired Illuminatus

LindaJeanne

On a small world west of wonder

jaksen

Caped Codder

djunamod

BethS

Escape Artist

Plotting her escape...

Escape Artist

Plotting her escape...

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller