POV Question

Ses · Dec 21, 2011

In my WIP, I switch between first and third person narrative. Basically, each chapter begins with a scene in first person narrative, and then the rest of each chapter is third person.

I'm having some issues with the transitions between POVs. At times, it seems pretty bumpy. Other times, it seems to transition well--almost to the point where as a reader (or at least me) barely notices the switch.

Now I am dang sure I am not an incredible genius and thought of this switching POV all by myself. I am sure there are other novels out there that do this. But I can't think of any.

Anybody know of any novels that do switch back and forth between 1st and 3rd person POVs? I'd love to see some examples of how they transition back and forth...

Grunkins · Dec 21, 2011

The examples I always think of (maybe the only one I can think of, but that's mostly because I'm forgetful) is Nelson Demille's John Corey "Lion" novels. The John Corey chapters are written in the 1st person, and the Asad Khalil chapters are written in 3rd limited.

Switching within a single chapter...no examples of this spring to (my forgetful) mind.

sheadakota · Dec 21, 2011

My opinion only here- But I don't thnk it's a good idea to switch POV in the same chapter. if you are going to switch POV you should do it in seperate chapters. Sometimes even that is frowned on. I know I've read books that switch from first to third in different chapters but have never read one that switches within the same chapter. (not saying there isn't one- just that I have never read one.)

BotByte · Dec 21, 2011

My opinion here - but I think it's a horrible idea. Sorry Sheadokota

I understand why and how you would do it, but for a constant change would be a little difficult to pull off.

If you would, make sure you stick so these point:

- Keep one character to the 1st person or the 3rd. If you change up the characters in 1st, and never tell the reader the narrator's name, it gets confusing.

- Either you do it uniformly as you said. Every chapter is a change. Or you do it very rarely. Both of these are to have the reader understand it better.

- Make sure the voices are different between the POV changes. A 1st POV is either very personal or objective. Then a 3rd is very open or closed. (best way I can say this)

I used to change POV from 1st to 3rd to show off the MC

job · Dec 21, 2011

It sounds technically difficult to change from 1st to 3rd person seamlessly in the middle of a chapter. Is there some reason you've chosen this approach?

One easy fix to the transition problem is to put a chapter break or hiatus between the 1st person and the 3rd person.

A hiatus is a pair of empty lines in the book. This represents a break in the scene or a change of scene. A hiatus is represented in the manuscript by a # centered in the page with an empty line above and below it.

If there are only a few lines of 1st person -- maybe 150 to 200 words -- could you put it in Italics?

sheadakota · Dec 21, 2011

well I never said I thought it was a good idea -just giving him options.

Ses · Dec 21, 2011

The first person POV is the MC--Jack.

The third person narrative is definitely the "author," who sometimes occasionally breaks in with his opinion.

In the 1st person POV, the name of the MC is never mentioned, and the narrative here is really personal and shares some crazy stuff--mainly about the death of his wife. But also about black ops, aliens, massive plagues, demons, wars, martial law, being chased by the government, etc. As the reader, you are not really supposed to be able to tell whether the guy is crazy or telling the truth.

In the third person narrative, you see Jack in a totally different life. He is living in a boarding house, makes no decisions, kind of floats through life, you don't see any of his internal thoughts. The other supporting characters, you get inside their heads though (limited omniscient). And here, you do not see the aliens, plagues, and all the above.

By the end of the novel, the idea is for the reader to figure out that the first person POV has been Jack all along.

Even the first rough draft has been a difficult thing to write. This is really been the most complicated thing I have ever written ever.

I have a flash fiction piece that gradually transitions from third person to second person. I've gotten a lot of rejection letters for that one--many of them hand written by the editors, saying they really really liked the piece, but it didn't fit their publication, that it was too outside of the realm of the magazine's style. So I feel positive about this novel I'm working on, I'd just like to see a few examples of published novels doing this kind of structure. I just don't know of any.

GailD · Dec 21, 2011

You may like to try 'Billy Straight' by Jonathon Kellerman or 'A Traitor to Memory' by Elizabeth George. Both authors use this technique very effectively.

Dario · Dec 23, 2011

Now that Sheadakota's explained what this is about, here's my 2c. There's no issue with a (well-handled and clear) POV switch within the same chapter, as long as you don't switch POV in the same scene (typically set off from one another by line break, triple -asterisks, graphic symbol, or simple # in mss).

Note I say well-handled: by that I mean that the reader should be given the right clues with which to rapidly grasp--within a line or three--whose POV we're in. First person/third person POV switch isn't ultimately that different to switching between VP characters.

The key to getting away with this IMO is to let the reader know the rules you're playing by RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING. Which means that if you're going to be switching between 1st and 3rd from one chapter or scene to the next, whatever, you need to do this EARLY in your novel.

A good writer can get away with an awful lot if they do it right. But the one thing you should never, ever do is switch rules halfway--you have to play fair with the reader.

Dario · Dec 23, 2011

Addendum: Here's a link to a great article about the subtler points of POV by friend and fellow author Juliette Wade. In the light of what you've told us about your strategy, it strikes me that you may be able to use some of what Juliette tells up about using judgment and pointing to reinforce what yopu're trying to do. Juliette's article is at:

http://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10311

artemis31386 · Dec 23, 2011

From what I've seen while editing other's books, its extremely jarring and irritating when a writer switches POV in a chapter. I would recommend staying in one POV per chapter so that it's not "head hopping" to the point of exhaustion and frustration for your readers.

Dario · Dec 23, 2011

Artemis, agreed a writer definitely doesn't want to exhaust or frustrate their readers

But I do think it's dependent on how skilled the writer is at handling it. As an example, I just recently re-read Heavy Time by CJ Cherryh, one of the most acclaimed SF/Fantasy writers (Multiple Award winner, 30 years and 50-some novels) in print. In this novel, as in some of her others, she'll switch VP character (which granted is different to 1st->3rd POV) sometimes SEVERAL TIMES in a chapter when it's necessary to do so to contrast dueling perspectives in an argument, etc. Many other writers do the same.

I agree though that caution IS needed, and in the hands of anyone less skilled the head-hopping can, as you say, be exhausting. It sure never hurt CJ's sales, but she's one hell of a good writer.

Bottom line: 'don't break the rules till you know 'em' remains good advice.

job · Dec 24, 2011

When we write, there's just a whole buncha stuff to keep track of. You got yer characterization and pacing and the lyric beauty of the prose and forward momentum of the narrative and the balance of exposition/dialog and scene transitions and staying in POV and allkindastufflikethatthere.
Every bit of this is vital to storytelling. And all of it is hard.

The more we mess around with the technicalities of basic fiction form, the harder it is to handle that other stuff. The simple method of changing POVs is the least of your worries.

How will you handle the pacing consequences of those POV transitions?
(It looks like you're doing 1st/O.N., not 1st/3rd, btw.)
What happens to your narrative drive while the reader puzzles about the persona of the Omniscient Narrator?
When the Omniscient Narrator breaks the 4th wall and kicks the reader out of the story, how will you pull her back in?

Every time the reader see 'writing technique' instead of story, you've lost her. You've broken the fictive haze.

As writers, we're tickled pink by writing technique.
Genre readers -- not so much.
Will the reader get a kick out of discovering the switcheroo between Omniscient Narrator and 1st person narrator? Or will it be a wallbanger of the 'the narrator is a dog', 'the narrator is the killer', or 'it was all a dream' type?

Before you invest heavily in experimenting with forms of writing, maybe ask yourself how this improves your storytelling.

BethS · Dec 24, 2011

What JoB said.

Dario · Dec 24, 2011

Job--this is true. Also it strikes me that some genres are more forgiving than others of stylistic and technical deviation. SF readers in particular are always looking for clues as to what's up, so they may be more used things that might make a mainstream reader throw the book across the room. And your point on pacing is dead on.

TBH, my biggest concern was SES's goal of keeping the reader guessing over what is the narrator's identity throughout a whole novel--THAT would take some skill. LOL

Ses · Dec 24, 2011

So you all have made some really good points to keep in mind. Thank you!

GailD, I checked out Billy Straight and A Traitor to Memory--both which switch 1st to 3rd chapter from chapter. Reading these have been a big help already.

Darlo, From chapter one from the get go, I start with the set up--first scene, 1st person, consecutive scenes, 3rd person...., which actually Job, you are correct, it is actually 1st/O.N.

After having gone through some editing, I discovered some of my problem--at the first chapter, the 1st vs. O.N. was in no way connected with each other. By the 8th chapter, I noticed my transitional problems between scenes went away. I think because I set up the rules early on, more towards the middle of the book I could get away with having the POV switches not relate all that much to each other.

I saw the author break into the story with Zadie Smith's White Teeth, and as a reader I didn't wonder who the O.N character was. I knew and accepted it as the "author."

Dario, the Point of View article was excellent, and I will be keeping that tid bit of Internet wisdom open while I continue to work on revision issues.

I will definitely say that this is not a "it was all a dream" story.

This will be my fourth novel, actually. My first was, well, crappy and totally unpublishable. I keep it enshrined in the bottom of my desk drawer. Kind of like bronzed baby shoes, I guess. The other two, everyone who has read them, has said they read well, that they are well written, but no matter how many times I've sent them out,they have come back. Editors have scrawled on the bottom of the rejection letters commenting that something has been missing, but they are not quite sure what.

This novel, this WIP, has been most certainly the most challenging thing I have ever written. I'm hoping the extra thought and consideration and effort pays off with this one. It took me three months just to outline the thing, and I have never taken that long to outline anything ever before.

job · Dec 25, 2011

Dario said:
Also it strikes me that some genres are more forgiving than others of stylistic and technical deviation.

So right. ISTM writing tricks work well in SF because the gizmo can be part of the the story. The medium is the message, as it were. Often that tricky trick -- 'the narrator is the sofa' -- is, in fact, the point of the story, (the sofa is an infiltrating alien and eats people,) rather than the writer showing us he can write from the POV of a sofa.

Dario said:
TBH, my biggest concern was SES's goal of keeping the reader guessing over what is the narrator's identity throughout a whole novel--THAT would take some skill.

I don't see this as so much difficult, as . . . why should this delight the reader? How does it make the story more interesting?

Chrissy · Dec 25, 2011

Ses said:
The first person POV is the MC--Jack.

The third person narrative is definitely the "author," who sometimes occasionally breaks in with his opinion.

A little bit strange. Isn't the "author" supposed to be invisible? Like what JOB said about "seeing the writing technique." I hate that in books. Pulls me write out of the story and gets me thinking from a clinical/writer perspective. Blech. Not want I want when I'm trying to enjoy a good book.

In the 1st person POV, the name of the MC is never mentioned, and the narrative here is really personal and shares some crazy stuff--mainly about the death of his wife. But also about black ops, aliens, massive plagues, demons, wars, martial law, being chased by the government, etc. As the reader, you are not really supposed to be able to tell whether the guy is crazy or telling the truth.

In the third person narrative, you see Jack in a totally different life. He is living in a boarding house, makes no decisions, kind of floats through life, you don't see any of his internal thoughts. The other supporting characters, you get inside their heads though (limited omniscient). And here, you do not see the aliens, plagues, and all the above.

By the end of the novel, the idea is for the reader to figure out that the first person POV has been Jack all along.

So... who does the reader suspect this first person is, if it's not Jack? Do you really keep the knowledge of who's speaking in first POV a mystery throughout the book? That's pretty cool. Seemingly impossible, but an intriguing concept.

Even the first rough draft has been a difficult thing to write. This is really been the most complicated thing I have ever written ever.

I can only imagine.

I have a flash fiction piece that gradually transitions from third person to second person. I've gotten a lot of rejection letters for that one--many of them hand written by the editors, saying they really really liked the piece, but it didn't fit their publication, that it was too outside of the realm of the magazine's style. So I feel positive about this novel I'm working on, I'd just like to see a few examples of published novels doing this kind of structure. I just don't know of any.

Well, me neither. And I'm fairly well-read. I tend to hate anything written from the POV of a narrator commentating on what he sees, with no emotion or vested interest.

But I'm very curious about this MS of yours. It's an intriguing concept.

Good luck with it!

Ses · Dec 27, 2011

Chrissy said:
A little bit strange. Isn't the "author" supposed to be invisible? Like what JOB said about "seeing the writing technique."
<SNIP>
But I'm very curious about this MS of yours. It's an intriguing concept.

Yes, the author is supposed to be invisible, but not necessarily the narrator. I know, I know, I am breaking a rule.

I'm not quite up to 50 posts yet, but once I am, I'll place the first 3 chapters up for critique so if you're interested you can see whether my "experiment" has worked or not.

Dario · Dec 27, 2011

Ses, thanks for the comments and clarifications. There's nothing wrong IMO with breaking rules IF you know the rules in the first place and if you're doing it for a reason. And IF you pull it off, you might have something striking.

Without 'dissing' all the good advice on this thread, it's my belief that anyone who wants to take chances and get experimental should do so. As John Crowley, one of my own mentors, said to me once, "You're God in your stories: you can do anything you like."

I've edited three anthologies and spoken to a good few editors, and one thing I can report is that everyone's slushpile contains a good deal of acceptable but ho-hum writing. Editors are always looking for something that breaks free of the just competent. Why not take chances with narrative strategies? Writing, after all, is like paint: if it doesn't work, you just rewrite

kuwisdelu · Dec 27, 2011

By the way, are you writing genre fiction, or literary fiction?

Ses · Dec 27, 2011

kuwisdelu said:
By the way, are you writing genre fiction, or literary fiction?

That is an excellent question.

It has elements of science fiction and fantasy both.

I'm hoping literary...

Darkarma · Dec 29, 2011

Aside from having think to the very last episode of Enterprise when Riker switches from a character to omnsicient mode in the holodeck.

The closest and best example I can think of is the Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss. He pulls it off by which the first person sections are being narrated as a story. That was chapter by chapter.

The other example would be really any Ann Rice novel where someone is giving their story. The first person sections are if you look closely large blocks of spoken text. In this case I believe it was Blackwood Farm or some such where it did switch between 3rd and 1st... technically in the same chapter. But it was more of 3rd person using 1st person narrative while maintaining 3rd person.

Ses · Dec 29, 2011

Joseph Conrad did that in Heart of Darkness. A narrative within a narrative, but both narratives were in 1st person....

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