Character, Child, Hippopotamus: He / She / It?

Pacze Moj · Dec 17, 2011

Is it improper to refer to a character (as in a novel) as an "it"? What about a child, or a hippo?

I.

E.g. My novel is about the Russian Revolution. The main character is 26-year old Bolshevik spy. It [the character] is sent on a dangerous mission...

That sounds odd, but I can't figure out a reason why it's not right.

II.

E.g. I saw the child through the window. It raised its head and crawled toward me.

E.g. I saw the child through the window. She raised her head and crawled toward me.

A little girl is a she, but a child is an it. Is the second example wrong?

I can think of reasons for using one or the other: "it" if I don't know the sex or, if the child is possessed by the Devil, to emphasize its inhumanity; "she" if the sex is important and I know it. Then again, in the latter case, I could just drop child altogether and refer to her as a little girl from the start.

III.

E.g. The hippopotamus stared at me. I raised my rifle and shot him.

E.g. The hippopotamus stared at me. I raised my rifle and shot it.

Are both acceptable?

BethS · Dec 17, 2011

People are always 'he' or 'she,' 'him' or 'her.' In both I and II, you need the gendered pronoun. Children are people, too!

Animals can be referred to as 'it' or with a gendered pronoun.

Pacze Moj · Dec 17, 2011

That creates odd problems. For example, you meet up with old friends who've just had a baby. You don't know the sex of the baby. You ask, "Is he or she a boy or a girl?"

I'd ask, "Is it a boy or a girl?"

Yet a baby is a person.

As for characters: they're not people. A picture of a chair isn't a chair; it's a picture. And a picture of a person is a portrait, not a person. We'd say, "That's a beautiful portrait!" We wouldn't say, "That's a beautiful person."

...or am I just weird?

Fallen · Dec 17, 2011

'It' is your gender-nuetral pronoun. Like Beth said, substitute the non-human with this one (ideas, things, etc). If you're talking human, go gender-pronoun (she, he, etc).

There are times when you can stylistically make the decision to go with 'it' for humans. Shaun Huton's Spawn referred to newly-borns as 'it', but purely to dehumanize and build a more feral and demonic connotations.

But yours doesn't seem to be going for that.

Remember grammar can always be messed around with: cars have no gender, but they're frequently given 'he, she' tags. It depends on what you're trying to build.

Edit: just read you post gender uncertainty. 'it' is used when sex is undetermined, but it has that disrespectful tone to it (you're saying the baby is nothing more than a possession).

In my own day-to-day considerate life, I'd skirt round saying 'it' generally when talking about kids. It sits wrong in the mind, and on the tongue. It would depend entirely on the speaker in that instance. But, on the other hand, in my not so tolerant day-to-day life, 'it', 'that', 'thing' (more likely 'little shite'), would come into play. So it really does depend on context, speaker, etc.

Writing it, I'd just think 'why' first.

Snick · Dec 17, 2011

When the sex of a child is unknown, it is fine to use "it". I would say hat the same is true for an unknown character: Someone had come through the front door. It was dark and there were no lights on. From upstairs I heard the person bump into a chair. I yelled down to it, "Who are you?"

If there is a presumption as to sex, then would be ordinary to use the appropriate gender of pronoun, until such time as that might be shown to be wrong.

bonitakale · Dec 18, 2011

Snick said:
When the sex of a child is unknown, it is fine to use "it". I would say hat the same is true for an unknown character: Someone had come through the front door. It was dark and there were no lights on. From upstairs I heard the person bump into a chair. I yelled down to it, "Who are you?"

If there is a presumption as to sex, then would be ordinary to use the appropriate gender of pronoun, until such time as that might be shown to be wrong.

I've seen this usage for children in (mostly older) UK books. I (US) wouldn't use it for anyone older than a year, and I'd avoid it if possible. In the supermarket, I tend to say, "How old?" or "Boy or girl?" rather than use "it."

And I'd yell down, "Who are you?" but not "to it." Not unless it was probably a non-human.

Only place I see "it" used much is when you tell who's at the door or on the phone. "It's Alice."

Maryn · Dec 18, 2011

What guideline I use is whether the gender, of a human or animal, is apparent. In infants, you often cannot tell, so it seems appropriate. By the time that infant is a child, the gender is clear and it becomes wrong.

Most people, myself included, have no idea which gender's which when it comes to many animals, hippos among them, so it seems fine. Like human beings, though, if the gender is apparent--say, a dairy cow--then you'd use she or her.

Maryn, who has not yet had occasion to write about hippos

BethS · Dec 18, 2011

Pacze Moj said:
That creates odd problems. For example, you meet up with old friends who've just had a baby. You don't know the sex of the baby. You ask, "Is he or she a boy or a girl?"

I'd ask, "Is it a boy or a girl?"

Yet a baby is a person.

As for characters: they're not people. A picture of a chair isn't a chair; it's a picture. And a picture of a person is a portrait, not a person. We'd say, "That's a beautiful portrait!" We wouldn't say, "That's a beautiful person."

...or am I just weird?

What is the context in which you're asking about the use of "it"?

If you're writing fiction and the character whose POV you're using doesn't know the gender of an infant or small child, then "it" is acceptable usage until the gender is determined.

Snick · Dec 18, 2011

bonitakale said:
I've seen this usage for children in (mostly older) UK books. I (US) wouldn't use it for anyone older than a year, and I'd avoid it if possible. In the supermarket, I tend to say, "How old?" or "Boy or girl?" rather than use "it."

I wasn't suggesting that someone might address the child or parents using "it". I was suggesting that one might refer to aa child off somewhere along the lines of: "The poor child has fallen on its head."

And I'd yell down, "Who are you?" but not "to it." Not unless it was probably a non-human.

Only place I see "it" used much is when you tell who's at the door or on the phone. "It's Alice."

I might yell down to it, "Who is it?" Which is what someone might yell to someone at the door.

Pacze Moj · Dec 18, 2011

BethS said:
What is the context in which you're asking about the use of "it"?

If you're writing fiction and the character whose POV you're using doesn't know the gender of an infant or small child, then "it" is acceptable usage until the gender is determined.

I'm not asking about context. I'm asking whether it's incorrect to refer to a child (or character or hippo) as it. I understand that it may be impolite, but is it wrong?

For example, if I say, "The little girl looked at me," I can't follow that up with, "Then it looked away." The little girl is a she. The it doesn't refer to anything.

But when I say, "The child looked at me," if I follow that up with, "Then it looked away," the it does refer to something: the child.

Yet when I take that further, it starts sounding stranger and stranger:

1. The doctor walked in. It [the doctor] held a clipboard.

2. The doctor walked in. She [the female doctor] held a clipboard. (But what female doctor? There is no female doctor. There's just a doctor.)

If we had a word doctress, then it wouldn't work. We don't have doctresses. We have doctors. Doctor doesn't indicate sex. A doctor should be an it...

In practice, if I didn't know the doctor's sex, I'd repeat the noun: The doctor walked in. The doctor held a clipboard.

In theory, is there anything wrong with using it?

The only time I understand using he or she is if I imply: The [man who is a] doctor walked in. He [the man] held a clipboard.

Cricket18 · Dec 18, 2011

I've run into this problem with creatures in fantasy. They are not always discernable as 'he' or 'she.' The problem is the same as seeing a hippo, I suppose.

My remedy, as crazy as it sounds: I decided the creatures reproduced in a non-sexual manner and therefore, they could all be males. I didn't like using "it" and preferred 'he.' The reader may learn this somewhere along the line as a random aside, but it's doubtful. They will just read "The creature did this" or "He did that."

Idk, "it" just doesn't work for me in literature when it comes to living beings. 'It' sounds too non-specific and whenever I write I prefer specifics, if that makes any sense at all.

Bufty · Dec 18, 2011

Some helpful responses above.

I fear you are going to have to work this out on an individual example-by-example scenario. It gets easier as one becomes more familiar with the language nuances, and it's not worth sweating over.

Re the lower half of the post, I've seen these 'doctor' examples before and wonder what the real purpose of quoting them is apart from trying to generate discussion about nothing.

This whole thread doesn't gel with your signature link.

I'm not asking about context. I'm asking whether it's incorrect to refer to a child (or character or hippo) as it. I understand that it may be impolite, but is it wrong? You mean like a crime? No. Usually it refers to a small child where it's unclear whether it's a boy or a girl.

You can refer to a hippo as a he or a she if you wish -up to you.

For example, if I say, "The little girl looked at me," I can't follow that up with, "Then it looked away." Yes you can if it's a very small child or you don't know her. It's up to you and the editor. But it doesn't read well. Rephrase it. The little girl is a she. The it doesn't refer to anything. Stop overthinking.

But when I say, "The child looked at me," if I follow that up with, "Then it looked away," the it does refer to something: the child. Don't worry about it.

Yet when I take that further, it starts sounding stranger and stranger:

1. The doctor walked in. It [the doctor] held a clipboard.

2. The doctor walked in. She [the female doctor] held a clipboard. (But what female doctor? There is no female doctor. There's just a doctor.)

If we had a word doctress, then it wouldn't work. We don't have doctresses. We have doctors. Doctor doesn't indicate sex. A doctor should be an it...

In practice, if I didn't know the doctor's sex, I'd repeat the noun: The doctor walked in. The doctor held a clipboard.

In theory, is there anything wrong with using it? 'It' doesn't usually apply to humans and if 'it' is used it doesn't read right unless perhaps you are talking about a zombie or werewolf or the like.

The only time I understand using he or she is if I imply: The [man who is a] doctor walked in. He [the man] held a clipboard. If in doubt, rephrase the sentence so it makes sense.

Pacze Moj · Dec 18, 2011

It's not a discussion about nothing. It's a discussion about grammar and syntax.

Do I mean is it a crime to use it... ?

No, I mean: (1) is it a grammatical mistake in the same way that referring to a single cat as "they" is a mistake; and (2) why isn't it a mistake to refer to something like a child, character or doctor as s/he?

A cat is cells.

e.g. The cat mewed. It [the cat] ate the rat.
e.g. The [cells that make up a] cat mewed. They [the cells] ate the rat.

The second example is incorrect.

e.g. The doctor mewed. It [the doctor] ate the rat.
e.g. The [woman who is a] doctor mewed. She [the woman] ate the rat.

The second example is apparently correct.

It makes sense to me to apply the same rule to both sets of examples. Both cat and doctor are singular and neither indicates sex. Yet the same rule isn't applied. In the case of children and doctors, we're seemingly able to imply and refer to information that wasn't given.

I'm not trying to make anyone angry. I'm simply curious about language. The real (and only) reason for this post and my doctor examples is to help me better understand English. I'm thankful for the explanations about common usage, but those are contemporary social conventions. They're not what I'm asking about.

Don't worry about it, stop overthinking, and it doesn't read right aren't helpful.

The first is a non-answer, the second is bad advice and the third misses the point: something can "not read right" (whatever that means) yet still be right.

I shan't say don't let's argue, but let's at least be on point.

Right?

You can't say, "The lady and the woman talked. It was pretty," because there's nothing for it to reference. It's taking the place of something that doesn't exist. You can say, "The lady and the woman talked. She was pretty." No one will know who was pretty—the woman or the lady—but at least you'll be referring to one of two possible nouns.

For some reason, however, people do do something similar when it comes to it: "The person was tired. He was sweating." The sentences sound normal. There's nothing unconventional about them. But he is in reference to nothing, just as it was in reference to nothing. "Person" is not a he. "Person" is an it.

Even if, for some reason, it's grammatically correct to refer a person as s/he, is it grammatically incorrect to refer to a person as it; and, if so, why?

That's the crux.

Fallen · Dec 18, 2011

Pacze Moj said:
Even if, for some reason, it's grammatically correct to refer a person as s/he, is it grammatically incorrect to refer to a person as it; and, if so, why?

That's the crux.

The thing with grammar and logic, it stops at a certain point, I think, and interpretation takes over, especially when English doesn't inflect for gender.

I know 'doctor' grammatically doesn't have a gender, but outside of grammatical convention, I know, in referring to the world around me, a doctor can only really be a 'he' or a 'she', or even transgender. A doctor isn't an 'it'. The same goes with 'person'. As a grammatical common noun, it has no gender, but as referential material, I know a 'person' refers to a human being, which falls under 'he, she, optional other'.

Maybe the rules of grammar only take you so far before you have to apply your knowledge. And to my knowledge, using 'it' to refer a person is 'referentially incorrect'.

To use 'it' in anaphoric/cataphoric reference with 'person (or doctor)': 'The person ran over. It was out of breath', is simple non-congruency.

I would be expecting:

The person ran over. [and because the reader knows person is now close and the author can have a good go at determining sex] He was out of breath.

Edit: ps, I think there's a danger of looking at grammar out of context. Words = clause = sentences = meaning both on grammatical as well referential levels. E.g.

Give to the paw

Is wrong grammatically, but in context: an ad to raise food for unwanted cats and dogs, the punning on homophone [poor/paw] works. It also plays on a phrase that's pretty well-known to most: give to the poor, and on our associations to poor. (I.E. it play with both referential and grammatical associations)

Bufty · Dec 19, 2011

Pacze. It's perfectly clear you understand and know how to write English as well as any of us so all these issues of apparent confusion are purely academic.

Is it touting? Is he touting? Both perfectly acceptable phrases - the use of 'he' or 'it' being determined by context. Context is all.

bonitakale · Dec 20, 2011

Snick said:
I wasn't suggesting that someone might address the child or parents using "it". I was suggesting that one might refer to aa child off somewhere along the lines of: "The poor child has fallen on its head."

To me, in 2011 USA, that would be wrong, or at least, very awkward.

In fact, we do not have, in English, any pronoun that means "a person of undetermined sex." If you don't know the sex, you have to guess, or say so. "The murderer knifed Joe. Then he or she ran away." "The doctor came in with a clipboard. I couldn't tell if he was a short, slender man or a tall woman."

Snick said:
I might yell down to it, "Who is it?" Which is what someone might yell to someone at the door.

You would yell down "Who is it"? but not "to it."

"It" just is not used of human beings. The more we come to regard infants as human beings, the less right "it" becomes.

"Who is it?" is an idiom; it doesn't make sense, the way, "Who's there?" does.

Anyway, the lack of a pronoun for a person of unspecified gender is one of the problems with English. But you can't use "it." "It" is just wrong.

Bufty · Dec 20, 2011

Nothing wrong with either "Who is it?" or "The poor child has fallen on its head."

Context is all.

As for yelling down 'to it' -that's a different issue altogether -it's simply the way the poster framed his observation.

BethS · Dec 20, 2011

Pacze Moj said:
But when I say, "The child looked at me," if I follow that up with, "Then it looked away," the it does refer to something: the child.

Yes--but you'd only use "it" if the gender is not clear to the observer.

1. The doctor walked in. It [the doctor] held a clipboard.

I can't think of a single instance where someone would actually write this. The observer--whoever is seeing the doctor walk in--would be able to identify the gender.

A doctor should be an it...

No, never. That's just weird...

In practice, if I didn't know the doctor's sex, I'd repeat the noun: The doctor walked in. The doctor held a clipboard.

Rather, I hope you would write something like--The doctor walked, holding a clipboard.

In theory, is there anything wrong with using it?

Yes, this is just not done in English.

Ken · Dec 21, 2011

... use "they," when the sex is unknown. It's perfectly acceptable.

"I saw the child through the window. They raised their head and crawled toward me."

"They" can also be used when the sex of a person is irrelevant and not worth mentioning:

"I queried an agent. They got back to me right away."

Bonitakale's point about looking for ways to bypass awkward pronouns, altogether, is a good one.

"The cat mewed. It [the cat] ate the rat."
The cat mewed, then ate the rat.

Pacze Moj · Dec 23, 2011

So we're at the point at which one child can be a they ('cause it's acceptable—though wrong,) but one child can't be an it (which is wrong because it's just not done.)

We waves the white flag.

I guess I'm with Samuel Coleridge Taylor (Anima Poetæ, p. 190):

QUÆRE – whether we may not, nay ought not, to use a neutral pronoun, relative or representative, to the word "Person", where it hath been used in the sense of homo, mensch, or noun of the common gender, in order to avoid particularising man or woman, or in order to express either sex indifferently? If this be incorrect in syntax, the whole use of the word Person is lost in a number of instances, or only retained by some stiff and strange position of the words, as – "not letting the person be aware wherein offense has been given" – instead of – "wherein he or she has offended". In my [judgment] both the specific intention and general etymon of "Person" in such sentences fully authorise the use of it and which instead of he, she, him, her, who, whom.

AND: To prove me wrong about they-child being wrong, here's a page about the singular "their," which seems to have quite a long and distinguished history.

AND: To add a little spice, apparently in some forms of Indian English the following sentence is normal: "John is building a house, isn't it?"

AND: A neat page about "gender-neutral pronouns." It [the page] or they [its authors] don't advocate for it. (Can a page advocate?)

pandaponies · Dec 24, 2011

Personally "they" used as singular makes me cringe FAR more than "it" does. I think "it" is perfectly acceptable whenever the sex is unknown or unable to be determined. You wouldn't say "The main character is 26-year old Bolshevik spy. It is sent on a dangerous mission..." because you know the character's sex and anyone who reads the book will soon find out. IMO if you know enough about the character to know s/he is a 26-year-old spy, you should know the gender and using "it" would seem weird.

Now, it would be totally different (to me) if it were in a more vague context such as "I caught a glimpse of a spy slinking around a corner in the distance. Frantically I tried to follow its movement but it vanished into the shadows faster than blah blah blah." A spy, a shadowy human figure, a child, etc. Children are people but are usually much more ambiguous than adults. I can't tell whether the hell they're boys or girls at all from behind if they don't have sex-stereotypical hairstyles or clothes half the time

. Anything not concrete enough for the sex to be determined can take an "it" in my book.

I say "Is it a boy or a girl?" about babies with no hesitation and wouldn't care at all about hearing the same about my own.

pegasus · Dec 24, 2011

bonitakale said:
I've seen this usage for children in (mostly older) UK books.

I think there's a chance that older books use 'it' because of the horrible infant mortality rate back then. Sometimes parents wouldn't even name their children until they'd survived the first or second year. Just an idea to muse upon.

I (US) wouldn't use it for anyone older than a year, and I'd avoid it if possible. In the supermarket, I tend to say, "How old?" or "Boy or girl?" rather than use "it."

Smart phrasing. Lots of folks embarrass themselves by not being so careful with their words.

pegasus · Dec 24, 2011

Pacze Moj said:
Is it improper to refer to a character (as in a novel) as an "it"? What about a child, or a hippo?

E.g. My novel is about the Russian Revolution. The main character is 26-year old Bolshevik spy. It [the character] is sent on a dangerous mission...

That sounds odd, but I can't figure out a reason why it's not right.

Hi, Pacze. I'd say it's wrong because language isn't mathematics. No matter how logical a thing might seem, it really doesn't matter. Language is all about normal usage, not logic. In English, no adult would be called 'it' as in your example.

E.g. I saw the child through the window. It raised its head and crawled toward me.

E.g. I saw the child through the window. She raised her head and crawled toward me.

A little girl is a she, but a child is an it. Is the second example wrong?

Not so wrong as your first example. Children are sometimes called 'it'. Depends on the age of the child usually.

E.g. The hippopotamus stared at me. I raised my rifle and shot him.

E.g. The hippopotamus stared at me. I raised my rifle and shot it.

Are both acceptable?

I'd say both are acceptable. The 'him' would more likely be used with a seasoned hunter maybe -- someone who is really into the activity. A good writer might have the client calling the hippo 'it' while the guide would be saying 'him' or 'her.'

IceCreamEmpress · Dec 26, 2011

Singular "they" isn't wrong. I am sure you learned that it was in your English class--that particular bugbear is even more widespread in English as a Foreign Language classes than it is in English classes for native speakers--but it isn't. Really, it isn't. I'll let Henry Churchyard argue the point for me.

That said, unless your character is gender-ambiguous (like the sleuth Hilary Tamar in Sarah Caudwell's novels) or you have some reason to conceal his or her gender, call the character "he" or "she".

Animals can always be called "it" in English usage, unless you are referring to them by name. "I saw a spider and squashed it" is correct; "My daughter's dog Boris died, and we all mourned him" is correct, because "it" would be odd for a dog you know well enough to name.

Chase · Dec 26, 2011

IceCreamEmpress said:
Singular "they" isn't wrong.

Just because some torture "they" into references to singulars doesn't mean good writers abandon all sound math logic and apply the plural constantly.

Saying it over and over doesn't make it so, either.

Gender-appropriate language is not only possible without resorting to the mix of singulars and plurals, it's easy.

We rewrite around other lesser gaffes, so why the exception in the case of something flying in the face of number logic, such as, "A child instinctively knows their mother"?

In every case, it's simple to correct:

Children instinctively know their mothers.

or

A child and mother are instinctively paired.

Character, Child, Hippopotamus: He / She / It?

Pacze Moj

BethS

Pacze Moj

Fallen

Stood at the coalface

Snick

bonitakale

Maryn

I Tried

BethS

Snick

Pacze Moj

Cricket18

Gnawing my hairless tail

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Pacze Moj

Fallen

Stood at the coalface

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

bonitakale

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

BethS

Ken

Pacze Moj

pandaponies

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

pegasus

practical experience, FTW

pegasus

practical experience, FTW

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism