As a rough guide, what sort of pay could a 1st time UK author expect?

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Gavin23

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I imagine I'm going to get a lot of, " How long is a piece of string" styled answers, and I know that the amount J.K made on the first Harry Potter book will be significantly more than what most will get, but I'm looking for a rough estimate.

Thinking about it, knowing the whole process would be interesting, an average MG book, gets accepted by a publisher, do you get paid an advance then? Or is it at a later stage? And what sort of percentage would you make on each book?

Again, I know all these things will be estimates, but I have absolutely no idea, so any educated guesses will be helpful :)

Thanks!
 

MrRuff

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Well, perhaps JK Rowling isn't a terrible example in this case.

After being turned down again and again, Bloomsbury finally took a chance on her and paid her a whopping £1,500 for Philosopher's stone. Yeah.

It wasn't until the series took off that the money came rushing in.

In fact, Rowling herself says she enjoyed writing Azkaban the best because after Chamber of Secrets, she'd finally gotten to a place where she didn't need to worry about whether or not she could pay the bills that month.

So it was a slow builder, that's for sure.
 

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Gavin23

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Well, perhaps JK Rowling isn't a terrible example in this case.

After being turned down again and again, Bloomsbury finally took a chance on her and paid her a whopping £1,500 for Philosopher's stone. Yeah.

It wasn't until the series took off that the money came rushing in.

In fact, Rowling herself says she enjoyed writing Azkaban the best because after Chamber of Secrets, she'd finally gotten to a place where she didn't need to worry about whether or not she could pay the bills that month.

So it was a slow builder, that's for sure.

Wow I didn't expect that! I knew she'd been turned down several times though, so should have guessed she wouldn't have gotten mega-bucks.

Is that a reasonable expectation then, £1500?
 

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I imagine I'm going to get a lot of, " How long is a piece of string" styled answers, and I know that the amount J.K made on the first Harry Potter book will be significantly more than what most will get, but I'm looking for a rough estimate.

Thinking about it, knowing the whole process would be interesting, an average MG book, gets accepted by a publisher, do you get paid an advance then? Or is it at a later stage? And what sort of percentage would you make on each book?

Again, I know all these things will be estimates, but I have absolutely no idea, so any educated guesses will be helpful :)

Thanks!

Basically, how long is a piece of string is the answer, but I will try to be helpful.

Advances are usually paid in three tranches. The first third, you get on signature of the contract. The second comes on delivery and acceptance of the manuscript. The third comes on publication (which may be one, two years after you signed, remember.) You won't see any more money until the book has earned the advance back in royalties.

I've always been taught that the level of advance has a rough and ready relationship to the amount the publisher expects the book to earn in royalties across its first year or so: the first print run, basically.

Let's say I, the publisher, have worked out that we make a modest profit if we print and sell 7,000 copies of your MG book at a RRP of £5.99. Let's assume the books are sold to the retailers at an average 60% discount: I'm taking in about £2.40 per book, or £16,772. Assume you're being paid 7.5% of price received. Your share of those sales would therefore be £1257, which gives me a sense of the level of advance to offer you.

That seems really low, but 7.5% PR is a minimum really. You may be on a PP (Price Paid) deal, where you're getting 7.5% of the cover price, not what the retailer paid, though that's increasingly uncommon in UK children's books (you're likely to see contracts that offer PP royalties on hardbacks and PR royalties on paperbacks, without a hardback being scheduled.) Or you might be on a higher percentage - 10%, say. It's also possible to be on a lower percentage - with a picture book, say, you'd be splitting that 10% with an illustrator.

You might not even be on a royalty deal. If you're writing work-for-hire series stuff for example, you get paid a flat fee and nothing on the back end.

Now: most advances that I see are actually higher than the rule of thumb above might suggest. When I run a profit and loss analysis of a prospective book, I am, as I say, looking mainly at the first print run. That's where most of the up-front costs will be; if I can make a profit there, then the book will have paid for itself. If I look at it and we're in the red, I may apply a bit of optimism and tack a reprint on to the costing, which usually makes things look a bit better. But as far as the advance goes, I'm kind of expecting that to earn out at some point beyond the scope of the P&L; so as long as the actual cost of paying it is covered it's OK to pay more than the royalties would indicate.

SO: the level of advance is dictated mainly by the number of books the publisher expects to sell. If you look at sales figures for books comparable to your own (read: not Harry Potter) you can work out roughly where you might be at.
 

MrRuff

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Wow I didn't expect that! I knew she'd been turned down several times though, so should have guessed she wouldn't have gotten mega-bucks.

Is that a reasonable expectation then, £1500?

I'm really not sure what you'd expect, because I'm not published either. But I THINK £1,500 would be considered quite a small amount.

But if your book were to sell plenty of copies, you'd get more from the royalties anyway.

Like people have said, don't quit your day job, just think of the money you'd get from publishing as a nice bonus :p
 

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I'm really not sure what you'd expect, because I'm not published either. But I THINK £1,500 would be considered quite a small amount.

I would be a bit sheepish about offering £1,500 for a whole novel, I think.
 

Gavin23

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I would be a bit sheepish about offering £1,500 for a whole novel, I think.

Torgo, I'm quoting this comment just as it's shorter and I wont have to decide which bits to cut out :)

Thanks a lot for your answer! I will have to read it through properly a few times I think to understand it all, but I get the general idea!

In all honesty I would be fairly happy with £1500, my novel is looking to only be around 40-50 thousand words, which I understand is pretty small.

There are a few books similar which I can check out, so I'll get onto that... do publishers give you that kind of information or do you have to search for it?
 

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Torgo

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Torgo, I'm quoting this comment just as it's shorter and I wont have to decide which bits to cut out :)

Thanks a lot for your answer! I will have to read it through properly a few times I think to understand it all, but I get the general idea!

In all honesty I would be fairly happy with £1500, my novel is looking to only be around 40-50 thousand words, which I understand is pretty small.

There are a few books similar which I can check out, so I'll get onto that... do publishers give you that kind of information or do you have to search for it?

Actually, come to think of it, it might be a bit tricky to get sales info. The place to get it is Nielsen Bookscan, but that's a subscriber-only database. As it's Christmas I'm happy to check a couple of ISBNs if it'd be helpful!
 

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With the current financial crisis, advances are getting less and less. Basically, an advance is the publisher betting on the success of the novel, the size of the advance the more popular they think it will be/the more risk they are willing to take with it. If a novel does not exceed expectations (the advance amount) then the publisher (or the author depending on how thier contract is worded - not sure if you can be asked to return an advance or under what circumstances) then the publisher takes a loss in the money they paid to the author (plus any other overheads they forked out for). If the novel does exceed expectations then the publisher and author both profit. Therefore, in an economic climate where things like book sales may be down, publishers are more likely to pay out less in advance and give it a better chance of making a profit.

An advance is nice as a lump sum up front (and that is generally what it is for - to pay the author's bills and so on while they finish editing and wait for the release) but do not consider that as the price the publisher is paying for the novel. It is what it says on the tin - an advance against royalties. The higher that advance, the more books you have to sell to reach the profit point when every book that sells give you, the author, some cash. A lower advance may therefore be better for many, especially if they also have a day job to keep food on the table and pay the bills. Newspapers often quote the massive advances but these are statistical blips and should not be seen as the norm. Most are actually very small.
 

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not sure if you can be asked to return an advance or under what circumstances

I've never known it to happen in my direct experience. Splitting the advance into sig, acceptance and pub helps avoid that sort of unpleasantness.
 

Gavin23

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Well, that was 15 years ago, from what was then a very small publisher, for a book that no one had high expectations for - the initial print run was only 1000 copies.

According to the following BBC article for last year, the average advance for a first time writer is £5000

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/willgompertz/2010/02/how_to_get_your_first_novel_pu.html

Wow, £5000 would be amazing.

Guess all I need to do now is finish the book, polish it to perfection, send to beta readers, get an agent, get a publisher and bank the cheque ;)
 

Gavin23

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Actually, come to think of it, it might be a bit tricky to get sales info. The place to get it is Nielsen Bookscan, but that's a subscriber-only database. As it's Christmas I'm happy to check a couple of ISBNs if it'd be helpful!

Are you serious :D?

That would be fantastic!! Is it okay if I do a little research and get back to you a little later on, I want to make sure I make the most of it :)

Truly, very much appreciated :)
 

Gavin23

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An advance is nice as a lump sum up front (and that is generally what it is for - to pay the author's bills and so on while they finish editing and wait for the release) but do not consider that as the price the publisher is paying for the novel. It is what it says on the tin - an advance against royalties. The higher that advance, the more books you have to sell to reach the profit point when every book that sells give you, the author, some cash. A lower advance may therefore be better for many, especially if they also have a day job to keep food on the table and pay the bills. Newspapers often quote the massive advances but these are statistical blips and should not be seen as the norm. Most are actually very small.

That makes sense. I think I would prefer a lower amount up front, then hopefully a nice surprise of more towards the end, rather than a big advance, and nothing else!
 

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Are you serious :D?

That would be fantastic!! Is it okay if I do a little research and get back to you a little later on, I want to make sure I make the most of it :)

Truly, very much appreciated :)

Sure, just DM me the ISBNs and I'll get back to you.
 

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Wow, £5000 would be amazing.

Guess all I need to do now is finish the book, polish it to perfection, send to beta readers, get an agent, get a publisher and bank the cheque ;)

Of course you have to pay tax on that, and if you have an agent, he/she will get 15%. And as has been mentioned, it will be paid in three installments, over the course of 12-24 months (depending on your publication schedule). So it's really not very much money compared to a real job. Still, it keeps me in convention attendances and tech toys :)

Oh, and I get paid directly into my bank account. The days of banking cheques are long gone...

(Since I'm already paying tax on my day-job, I put half of every advance payment into a long-term savings account. That way I can't "accidentally" spend it!)
 
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Gavin23

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I have expectations of £0 [no advance.] Anything higher is a pleasant bonus.

That's generally my philosophy with things too!

Aim low and avoid disappointment :)
 

Gavin23

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Of course you have to pay tax on that, and if you have an agent, he/she will get 15%. And as has been mentioned, it will be paid in three installments, over the course of 12-24 months (depending on your publication schedule). So it's really not very much money compared to a real job. Still, it keeps me in convention attendances and tech toys :)

Oh, and I get paid directly into my bank account. The days of banking cheques are long gone...

(Since I'm already paying tax on my day-job, I put half of every advance payment into a long-term savings account. That way I can't "accidentally" spend it!)

Ah I see what you mean. But.. as a 20 year old working for minimum wage.. it is a lot of money :)!
 
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