Third Person Limited

plebeian · Dec 13, 2011

I am writing a multiple pov novel, where one pov is written in first person, and the rest two are written in third person limited. The POV changes are marked by different chapters. I had a question about the 3rd person limited pov: Is the following writing style acceptable, or does it sound jarring?

<Action (describing what the MC is doing)> <His thoughts (in first person)> <Action> <His thoughts (in first person)>

"He was applying soap to his body. What is wrong with me? When it comes to girls, I allow them to make fun of me every time, he thought. And the fault does not lie with them. It lies with me. He rubbed his chest and stomach with soap, lowered the intensity of shower, and watched the soap bubbles expand and burst. He lowered the soap to his genitals. 21 years and no one has touched me, he thought. His fingers trailed the edge of his chin. I am dying for someone to touch me. I don’t want to graduate from college without even kissing anyone."

Does the 'he thought' makes it sound jarring? Or I shouldn't mix action and thoughts? Or change the entire thing to third person? (He allowed them to make fun of him every time...).

Sorry if this has been asked before. I tried searching the forums but could not find anything direct.

BethS · Dec 13, 2011

plebeian said:
I am writing a multiple pov novel, where one pov is written in first person, and the rest two are written in third person limited. The POV changes are marked by different chapters. I had a question about the 3rd person limited pov: Is the following writing style acceptable, or does it sound jarring?

<Action (describing what the MC is doing)> <His thoughts (in first person)> <Action> <His thoughts (in first person)>

"He was applying soap to his body. What is wrong with me? When it comes to girls, I allow them to make fun of me every time, he thought. And the fault does not lie with them. It lies with me. He rubbed his chest and stomach with soap, lowered the intensity of shower, and watched the soap bubbles expand and burst. He lowered the soap to his genitals. 21 years and no one has touched me, he thought. His fingers trailed the edge of his chin. I am dying for someone to touch me. I don’t want to graduate from college without even kissing anyone."

Does the 'he thought' makes it sound jarring? Or I shouldn't mix action and thoughts? Or change the entire thing to third person? (He allowed them to make fun of him every time...).

Sorry if this has been asked before. I tried searching the forums but could not find anything direct.

It's a little weird. I think you could recast all of that in third person, and keep only the line about dying to be touched as first person (and I would suggest italicizing it). End it with that. It's fairly powerful, and you don't want to dilute that by going on and on.

As it stands, the thoughts just don't sound natural. I mean, what guy thinks "The fault does not lie with them"?

Also, you don't need all that description of what he's doing in the shower. A line about soaping up to start with, and then you can skip all the rest except maybe the part about his genitals (though he would not think of them as his genitals), because that goes well with "I'm dying for someone to touch me."

CrastersBabies · Dec 13, 2011

Jarring for me. When I have thoughts (in 1st person) they're always in italics.

Bob regarded Sheila with the best and most sincere grin he could muster. God, she knows the truth. She found that chicken porn in my dresser. Help me, somebody help me.

Unless you're making clear shifts (chapters, scene breaks) I'd always advise against switching POVs mid-scenes, unless it's something like a character's thoughts, which I put in italics (and others use quotation marks).

Wow, parenthesis abuse. (hangs head in shame)

How I might edit it:

He was applying soap to his body. What is wrong with me? When it came to girls, he always allowed them to make fun of him. Every time. Not their fault, he thought. Mine. He rubbed his chest and stomach with soap, lowered the intensity of shower, and watched the soap bubbles expand and burst. He lowered the soap to his genitals. 21 years and no one had touched him. His fingers trailed the edge of his chin. He was dying for someone to touch him. He didn't want to graduate from college without even kissing anyone.

Some of the 1st person thoughts felt a little stiff and sometimes you can get around that by keeping it in the 3rd person, but getting in closer with your psychic distance. I mean, think about it, we usually don't think in perfect linear sentences (most of the time).

I dunno, just one suggestion! Very rough. I bet you'll get a bunch more. See which one speaks to you.

I like the character you're writing about, btw. If this is from your work in progress. I'd hang with him for a while in a story.

Grunkins · Dec 13, 2011

Mixing 3rd lim. with 1st within the same chapter or linebreak reads awkwardly to me. I bet if I ever saw it in a novel I would think the author didn't know better (an exception here might be Guy Gavriel Kay's writing, anything is possible in POV with him).

Nelson Demille successfully pulls off 1st person and 3rd limited between chapters in two of his John Corey books though.

Layla Nahar · Dec 13, 2011

I'm ok with it. The back and forth from 3rd to first person, the lack of italics. A writer I like does this a lot. However, I think it works better if the 3rd person pronoun is used mostly, and flashes of first person happen only on occasion.

Architectus · Dec 13, 2011

Check out I Am Legend. He does a great job of making us feel like we're reaing 1st but it's 3rd.

As he flicked the wall switch, the light flickered, then flared into normal brilliance. A disgusted hiss passed his clenched teeth. The generator was at it again. He’d have to get out that damned manual again and check the wiring. And, if it were too much trouble to repair, he’d have to install a new generator.

- I AM LEGEND by Richard Matheson

You can do the same with yours.

He was applying soap to his body. What is wrong with him? When it comes to girls, he allows them to make fun of him every time. And the fault does not lie with them. It lies with (his name goes here).

You can also bring us close to the character, then just switch to first for his direct thoughts without ever saying, I thought.

Orchestra · Dec 14, 2011

I like this better: "He was applying soap to his body. What is wrong with me? he thought. When it comes to girls, I allow them to make fun of me every time."

But also, what Architectus said.

Whatever you do, don't use italics or other typographical gimmicks to denote character thoughts. It's a crutch for writers who don't know how to do transitions right.

CrastersBabies · Dec 14, 2011

Orchestra said:
I like this better: "He was applying soap to his body. What is wrong with me? he thought. When it comes to girls, I allow them to make fun of me every time."

But also, what Architectus said.

Whatever you do, don't use italics or other typographical gimmicks to denote character thoughts. It's a crutch for writers who don't know how to do transitions right.

I think that's a bit unnecessary, but hey, whatever!

I see it in fantasy and romance. Maybe it's more about genre. As a reader, I prefer italics. I like a clean marker. I find the non-italics way a bit jarring. Just a preference though!

CrastersBabies · Dec 14, 2011

Bufty · Dec 14, 2011

As written it reads dreadfully to my eye.

There are plenty of novels written from third person POV where character thoughts are expressed within the narrative - it's nothing new.

What's missing here is any evidence of technique and I suggest reading more novels to see more effective ways in which character thoughts are expressed within narrative.

plebeian said:
I am writing a multiple pov novel, where one pov is written in first person, and the rest two are written in third person limited. The POV changes are marked by different chapters. I had a question about the 3rd person limited pov: Is the following writing style acceptable, or does it sound jarring?

<Action (describing what the MC is doing)> <His thoughts (in first person)> <Action> <His thoughts (in first person)>

"He was applying soap to his body. What is wrong with me? When it comes to girls, I allow them to make fun of me every time, he thought. And the fault does not lie with them. It lies with me. He rubbed his chest and stomach with soap, lowered the intensity of shower, and watched the soap bubbles expand and burst. He lowered the soap to his genitals. 21 years and no one has touched me, he thought. His fingers trailed the edge of his chin. I am dying for someone to touch me. I don’t want to graduate from college without even kissing anyone."

Does the 'he thought' makes it sound jarring? Or I shouldn't mix action and thoughts? Or change the entire thing to third person? (He allowed them to make fun of him every time...).

Sorry if this has been asked before. I tried searching the forums but could not find anything direct.

Dr.Gonzo · Dec 14, 2011

Ooo, I have to read I Am Legend again. Architectus, I thank you.

Orchestra · Dec 14, 2011

CrastersBabies said:
I think that's a bit unnecessary, but hey, whatever!

Yeah, sorry about that. The old grognard thing doesn't really suit me as I'm neither old nor a grognard. But I agree it's a matter of genre, at least partly. Heavy use of italics does indeed make me think of romances more than anything else.

plebeian · Dec 14, 2011

Thanks a lot for the replies, everyone. I can probably see where the problem lies. It is the constant going back and forth from the 1st person to 3rd. So, I am trying to keep the most of it in 3rd person, and if there is anything in the 1st person, I would at least try to make it continuous. Can you guys tell me, if the following sounds better:

"He was applying soap to his body. What was wrong with him? When it came to girls, he allowed them to make fun of him every time. And the fault did not lie with them, rather with him. He rubbed his chest and stomach with soap, lowered the intensity of shower, and watched the soap bubbles expand and burst. He lowered the soap to his genitals. 21 years and no one had touched him. His fingers trailed the edge of his chin. He was dying for someone to touch him. He did not want to graduate from college without even kissing anyone."

I know in this case, I have changed it entirely to 3rd person and have sacrificed some intimacy, but in some passages, I have decided to retain the thoughts in 1st person, but they will be minimal. Also, personally I would like to avoid italics (more of a stylistic choice than anything else.)

Bufty · Dec 14, 2011

Commenting on out of context snippets is not easy but this does not read with clarity.

It's all you (as narrator) telling me - it's a very weak and distant POV if it's meant to be that of the character.

Rewriting and trying not to open every sentence with He or His would help push you (as narrator) out of the picture, strengthen the POV and reduce the present distance between the reader and the character.

Your problem re the expressing of thoughts would disappear if the POV were strengthened.

He, him, his - these words - if overused or not used with care - can be distancing and convey the narrator's thoughts about the issues concerned rather than convey what the POV character is thinking about the issues concerned.

Thanks a lot for the replies, everyone. I can probably see where the problem lies. It is the constant going back and forth from the 1st person to 3rd. So, I am trying to keep the most of it in 3rd person, and if there is anything in the 1st person, I would at least try to make it continuous. Can you guys tell me, if the following sounds better:

"He was applying soap to his body Strange word choice -applying?. [What was wrong with him? This is a narrator statement seemingly addressed to the reader? When it came to girls, he allowed them to make fun of him every time Narrator talking. And the fault did not lie with them, rather with him. Still Narrator talking. He rubbed his chest and stomach with soap, lowered the intensity of shower, and watched the soap bubbles expand and burst. He lowered the soap to his genitals Again -strange word choices -lowered and genitals. 21 years and no one had touched him Is it 21 years since somebody touched him? Do you mean 21 years old? His fingers trailed the edge of his chin Again -odd word choice to my eye and I thought he had 'lowered the soap...'.. He was dying for someone to touch him. He did not want to graduate from college without even kissing anyone."

I know in this case, I have changed it entirely to 3rd person and have sacrificed some intimacy, but in some passages, I have decided to retain the thoughts in 1st person, but they will be minimal. Also, personally I would like to avoid italics (more of a stylistic choice than anything else. Sometimes going for style over clarity leads to unnecessary problems. And stop trying to convince us you know what you are talking about because the writing extracts don't support that assertion.

BethS · Dec 15, 2011

plebeian said:
"He was applying soap to his body. What was wrong with him? When it came to girls, he allowed them to make fun of him every time. And the fault did not lie with them, rather with him. He rubbed his chest and stomach with soap, lowered the intensity of shower, and watched the soap bubbles expand and burst. He lowered the soap to his genitals. 21 years and no one had touched him. His fingers trailed the edge of his chin. He was dying for someone to touch him. He did not want to graduate from college without even kissing anyone."

The problem with this (besides some awkward and weak phrasing) is that it has no voice. It sounds unnatural. It doesn't accurately reflect the word choices and mood of a 21-year-old guy who's fed up because he can't get a girl.

You need to get inside his head. Become him.

Not this--

He was applying soap to his body. What was wrong with him? When it came to girls, he allowed them to make fun of him every time.

But maybe more like this--

He squirted shower gel into his palm and soaped up his chest.

What the f*ck is wrong with me?

It might have been easier if girls just ignored him. But they didn't. They made fun of him and he let them do it. Every f*cking time.

OK, maybe he's really not the sort to use profanity. (I don't, myself, which is why I had to mask the words. It's hard for me to write that stuff.) Maybe he's a quiet, shy, scholarly type with a straitlaced upbringing. But if so, the voice still has to reflect that. Whoever he is, it has to be what he would say, not what you would say.

Third Person Limited

plebeian

BethS

CrastersBabies

Burninator!

Grunkins

Grand adventurer of the couch

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

Architectus

Orchestra

practical experience, GTFO

CrastersBabies

Burninator!

CrastersBabies

Burninator!

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Dr.Gonzo

Wonderfully Irreverent

Orchestra

practical experience, GTFO

plebeian

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

BethS