Is writing a skill?

[cwilliard]

A friend and I were discussing whether or not writing was a skill. He said it wasn’t because anyone can write. My response was, true anyone can write but not everyone can write well. I’m not saying that I’m close to being even a decent writer, but I just feel that it takes more skill, dedication and ability than people realize.

Any thoughts on whether there is such a thing as a natural born ability to write, or is it just a trait that anyone can learn?

[Unique]

>''<


I think it's more a question of: Will they? rather than Can they?

[PeeDee]

Of course it's a skill. Yeah, anyone can write. I mean, you get the fine folk who are sick of working their jobs and say, "I can't wait to retire, settle down on a beach somewhere, maybe write a book." I laugh at those fine folk, and I await the day.

I mean, sure anyone can write...anyone can hit a keyboard. Somewhere, there's an infinite number of chimpanzees writing Shakespear. It would take those chimpanzees an even longer amount of time to write an original work of fiction which would move you, the audience, and stir you to emotion. That's where writing skill comes in. You learn your basic tools, your grammar and your sentences, your spelling...but what makes it a skill is learning to write a story that makes people feel. It doesn't matter if you stir horror, guilt, love, happiness...you're making them feel something using the same words that another person could use to write a grocery list, or a credit card offer. That's a skill.

What I've always found personally amusing (in a bitter* sort of way) is that no one denies that a magician on a stage is practicing his trade, making use of his skill, to do his job...but if you're an artist or a writer, you're just a hippy-beetnic college kid who's dancing around getting a real job.

Crazy ol' world, eh? :)

* I'm not actually bitter. Honest.

[aghast]

Anyone could use a hammer, but is carpentry a skill? Get a grip.

[PeeDee]

On the hammer? :Clap:

[brokenfingers]

I think that's the typical attitude of people who haven't actually tried it.

I know that was my belief when I first started out. When I first decided to write a book, I thought it was just a matter of sitting still for a few weeks and banging it out, sending it to a publisher and then sitting back and waiting to collect the check. The average Joe doesnt realize everything involved in writing saleable work.

It was only once I'd actually delved in that I finally saw the enormity of what I was attempting.

I'm still kicking myself over it.

[SusanR]

The navy has this incredible, billion-dollar nuclear submarine thingie, and it won't go. Their top engineers can't make it go. So they call in a civilian in desperation. "Make it go," they plead.

So the civilian expert walks through the sub, sniffing the air here, sticking his head in circuits there. Finally, he takes out a hammer and taps a pipe. The sub starts up, and from then on, works fine.

The expert submits his bill to the Navy. "$500,000 for fixing nuclear sub" it reads. Furious, the Navy lets him know they think his fee is outrageous. He just tapped with a hammer, right? So they tell him to submit an itemized bill.

Which he does:

"For tapping with hammer: $1.00.
For knowing where to tap: $499,000."

Writing---anyone can do it. Writing well? Priceless.

SusanR

[PeeDee]

Abso-fraggin-lutely brilliant, Susan. Hah!

[James D. Macdonald]

Of course it's a skill. Not only is it a skill, but it's a skill that can be taught, and one that can be learned and one that needs to be practiced in order to improve.

Think of playing the piano. Some folks have greater talent than others, but that talent comes to nothing without learning the skills and the techniques.

[Birol]

Of course it is a skill.

[SpookyWriter]

Skill, talent, and imagination. The ability to imagine and create a story takes talent, but putting the words on paper correctly takes skill. The mechanics of writing isn't just subject verb object. There is an underlying structure to writing and doing so that the story is not only entertaining, but coherent. Anyone can build a house given the proper tools and materials, but how well the house is built and will it be livable, takes skill.


Jon

[Kasey Mackenzie]

I agree. Definitely a skill. One which, like most others, many people can be taught to do adequately, some competently, and some even well or magnificently. Of course, not everyone can learn to do it well. Just depends upon the person and what they put into it. And, like most other skills, some people do have a natural knack for it. That doesn't mean they won't have to work hard at it to become truly skilled, however.

[underthecity]

Following Uncle Jim's piano example, anyone can strike keys on a piano. But is it music?

Anyone can paint picture of a lady. But is it art? Is it the Mona Lisa?

Anyone can write. But is it good? Is it writing that can move a reader to tears, or cause him to change his viewpoint on an issue, or introduce him to new concepts and ideas?

You can see thousands of blogs and amateur sites all over the web. Sure anyone can write. The web proves that. But it takes a practiced skill to make it good, and a developed talent to make it sizzle.

allen

[MadScientistMatt]

I think the trouble is that it's hard for many people to tell on their own if their writing sucks. With many other sorts of art, it's relatively easy to see if you are doing something badly. Paint a picture badly, and you'll know if it doesn't look like your subject (Regretably, modern art sometimes lacks this criterion for knowing you're bad at it.). Play music badly, and you'll know when you've missed a note.

Bad writing is harder for the writer to judge. It's hard to tell if something is unclear if you already know what it means, or know if other readers will find your story boring if you're certain it's interesting.

[PeeDee]

Bad writing is harder for the writer to judge.


If you're a cliched writer, then everything you write is obviously crap, since you are obviously a hack. So there's that.... :)

(I mean you in general, not you in particular.

[SpookyWriter]

Take the test (http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/quiz_list.htm) and if you pass within the top 85 percentile then you move on to the next level. Many writers have a difficult time with structure. Here's a chance to keep your skills up to par while having some fun learning (again).

Jon

[Jaycinth]

You can take everyone on these boards and give them a violin and teach them to read music and play the violin. With a dedicated teacher and two hours of practice a day, two years down the road everyone of us will be able to play a violin. But only one or two of us will ever have the clarity of soul to make the violin talk...to make people cry with emotion when the violin is played.

Everyone is taught to write as part of their education. Only an infintessimal portion of those taught to write will ever want to write more than a few e-mails and letters. And only a much smaller percentage of those will ever practice their writing until they write something that makes people say "OMG, I WANT to read more!"

Writing is an art, but it is so much more, too.

[Jamesaritchie]

Writing is a skill, but like any other skill, the more talent you have for it, the better you can get at it. Running is also a skill, but how many people can run the mile in under four minutes?

You can teach people to run, but there aren't more than a handful of people in the world who will ever break the four minute mile, no matter how hard they try, and no matter who coaches them.

Skill without talent means mediocrity in any field.

Talent can't be taught. You can develop whatever talent a person has to the fullest extent, but if the talent isn't there, there's nothing to develop.

[Celia Cyanide]

A friend and I were discussing whether or not writing was a skill. He said it wasn’t because anyone can write.

Anybody could write, but anybody could work hard enough to go to school to be a doctor or lawyer. The truth is, only certain people choose to spend their time that way. It's the same with writing. I wouldn't say that what doctors and lawyers do are not skills, just because anybody could potentially do them.

Of course, you can make the arguement that doctors and lawyers have something that not everyone has, because some people are not smart enough to go to school. But some people are illiterate, and can't write, either.

[zeprosnepsid]

I think the trouble is that it's hard for many people to tell on their own if their writing sucks.

This reminds me of those American idol auditions -- how do those people not know they are bad? Everyone with vocal chords can sing, but not all of them can sing well. But some people just don't know they sing badly. It's amazing. Obviously, it's the same with writing.

[johnnysannie]

Writing is a skill but there are those who have a natural gift for words and those who do not.

Anyone can write. Not everyone can become a writer.

There have many fine examples in the thread but here's one more for good measure.



Any one can bake a cake, right? Some use Betty Crocker, others use a recipe from a cookbook and then a competent few can put together a cake that rises, is tasty, is tender without using a recipe because they have a knack for cookery (and an innate understanding of the basic ingredients needed for a cake, i.e. flour, sugar, leavener, fat).

[Jamesaritchie]

Of course it's a skill. Not only is it a skill, but it's a skill that can be taught, and one that can be learned and one that needs to be practiced in order to improve.

Think of playing the piano. Some folks have greater talent than others, but that talent comes to nothing without learning the skills and the techniques.



Yes, but I also think the skill and the technique comes to nothing without the talent, and not everyone has enough talent to get the job done.

I suspect writing, and least fiction writing, is far closer to singing than to playing the piano. There are many, many people who simply can't hear what's coming out of their own mouth, and all the teaching and work in the world will never make them great singers.

And I've seen far too many writers who never could learn how to write well, despite having many years of the best instruction money could buy, and despite writing intensely day in and day out for year. Even for decades.

You can teach anyone to write a sentence, and you can teach anyone to write a story, but you can't teach talent, and if the talent is missing, the skill becomes meaningless.

[zeprosnepsid]

You can teach anyone to write a sentence, and you can teach anyone to write a story, but you can't teach talent, and if the talent is missing, the skill becomes meaningless.

Not to hijack, but here's a question -- Who do you think is more likely to get published -- someone with great skill and no talent or someone with great talent and no skill?

[NeuroFizz]

Skill? Yes. I agree with all here. How does talent fit in? Two ways. It relates to the steepness of the learning curve. For some people, the curve is so shallow they may never produce quality prose. Others can find that special voice on their first try. The second way? The overall height of the curve, where it levels off, however this one can be pushed up with practice and experience as well, and it can slip a bit with disuse.

[Old Hack]

Of course it is skill. No denying that. Talent is also involved.


Someone on AW recently posted a link to an article which would be very interesting here, but I can't remember where the post was made!


The article linked to discussed how one has to have a certain level of competence in a subject before one can understand how bad one is at it. So a complete beginner will "know" that they can write a book and simply can't see why their writing is bad, whereas someone who has spent some time studying writing will be able to notice why their work is weak and where, and how, to improve it. I wish I could remember where that link was! Anyone?

[aweis]

Absolutely it's a skill.

[cwilliard]

Thanks for helping me prove my point. I might print some of these out and show them to my friend. I'm sure he'll just say that since it's writer talking of course they're going to say writing is a skill. He can be difficult when proven wrong.

Thanks for the help.


P.S. Love the sub analogy.

[aruna]

Thanks for helping me prove my point. I might print some of these out and show them to my friend. I'm sure he'll just say that since it's writer talking of course they're going to say writing is a skill. He can be difficult when proven wrong.

Thanks for the help.


P.S. Love the sub analogy.

Well, then, ask him to prove it! Let's see if HE can write a whole book!

[PeeDee]

Well,since it's writers talking about it, one would think that means we know best, really, wouldn't it?

Ye Gods, what a terribly cool paradox...!

"Writing is not a skill," says Everyman.

"What!" says the World.

"Watch, anyone can do it, for it takes neither skill nor talent." replies Everyman, "Look, here I am knocking out sentences, stringing together pages. Voila! I, Everyman, have written a book!"

"Well, er, yes" says the World, "But look, you've got a book, you're a Writer, we can't trust what you think about it. We need to go find an Everyman to tell us about writing."

And so on, and so forth, et cetera.

How cool. :)

[reph]

Writing is a whole basket of skills. Writing different kinds of things uses different combinations of skills, talents, and personality traits.

[Celia Cyanide]

Think of it this way...your friend would be best advised not to list "writing" under "special skills" on a resume, just because s/he learned to write in kindergarden.

[LieselGarmach]

Writing is most definitely a skill, and writing well is a craft.

I can cook, and some say I cook well. All I do, though, is follow the instructions in the cookbook when I want to create something I've not created before. I doubt highly that an accomplished chef who had something in mind to try would look for a recipe. That chef would more likely start pulling ingredients out and "throw it together".

I do believe, however, that most anyone with an interest in learning to write well can do so, barring a disability. Whether they choose to invest the number of hours and resources needed if their competency level is minimal is a totally different question. I've seen people who truly want to be funny spend years and hundreds of dollars learning to tell jokes. Could they be professional comedic stars? Probably not, but they still learned timing and delivery. To me it parallels writing. Dedication is key.

[SRHowen]

I think of it this way--anyone can write, put down words, learn grammar etc., but can anyone tell a story?

When we, authors (writers) say write and hear write we think of telling a story, not just writing down words. Yeah, anyone can craft a sentence bad or good, but can they paint a picture with the words so the reader can see the same picture?

That is where the skill is.

ANYONE can read a book and say I could write better than that, but can they? Can they tell the story better, paint the picture better? Not without some amount of skill--and that skill can be learned, but there is more to it than mechanics as most of us know.

Writing is a skill, a craft that through practice can be improved and the skill level increased. The skill is in the telling of the story, through word translation--making the story come alive via the skillfull use of words.

Shawn

[reph]

When we, authors (writers) say write and hear write we think of telling a story, not just writing down words.
Isn't that limited to story writing?

[PeeDee]

Well, I don't know. Any form of writing takes some amount of skill (some need more talent than others, perhaps) to work on. I mean, if you read a really horribly written travel brochure, what good would it do you?

Can we deny that Dave Berry, though writing a non-fiction column, had some amount of talent and skill for the comedic column?

I think so, but then, I have no idea. My addled brain and I are going to go back to doing that writing thing.

[maestrowork]

Talent and skill are not mutually exclusive. Without talent, you can still achieve certain competency and success. Maybe writers fit in that category and many make a living doing so. Same with musicians, actors, etc. But "creative" work requires creativity, and talent. Some people have the eyes for aesthetics. Some people have ears for beautiful music. Some people can move their bodies like nobody else. Some people have a way with words... these are all natural talents that can't be taught. But talent without skill doesn't mean much -- a gem remains just another piece of rock withou the cutting and polishing. Where would Mozart be if he didn't have his training? What talent means is that it makes things easier and faster for you -- easier to learn, easier to master, and easier to be "brilliant." But you still needs the skills to back it up.

[jst5150]

I'll add this to the discussion (and a link to the rest is here (http://www.en.utexas.edu/Classes/Bremen/e316k/tapages/markup.html)): Writing Is Not a Skill

Aronowitz, Stanley

Is "writing" a skill, an art, or a kind of critical literacy? Are its various forms-fiction, poetry, discourse, and argument, embodied in memos, papers, essays, and treatises mastered by learning techniques and rules? If writing is a skill, then it can be compared to the instrumental activity of tying a shoelace, replacing a light bulb, operating a computer, a lathe, or a photocopying machine. We seldom think about what is involved in these activities because, after repetitive use, they become habitual. But learning a skill takes time, particularly for the neophyte.

Thanks to Birol for having me mind my P's and Q's on copyrights.

[Celia Cyanide]

If your friend didn't think writing was a skill, what did s/he think it was?

[SpookyWriter]

If your friend didn't think writing was a skill, what did s/he think it was?

Like sex, you don't need skill to just bang away until your masterpiece is completed.

Jon

[emeraldcite]

I always saw three parts to writing:

1. Talent: This is the unrefined inborn skill. Pure Art.
2. Craft: This comes with practice. Skilled Art.
3. Business: This is the side where you handle all the aspects of editing and refinement. Art you can sell.

I think all three make good writers. Some writer are really strong in talent, but lack direction (craft). Some writers are good with craft, but lack the inborn talent.

Some have all three. They sell a lot of books.

[Jamesaritchie]

Whatever writing is, many never learn to write fiction well enough to be considered any good at it.

I suspect writing is a skill only if you're talking about the ability to write the same kind of sentences any grade school kid can write. Unfortunately, this has pretty much nothing at all to do with writing fiction, with telling a good story, with making characters come alive on the page, or with writing good dialogue. It's like comparing a grovery list to Moby Dick. Both are written, but that's where the similarity ends.

Anyone can write dialogue, but darned few can write good fictional dialogue. Writing a sentence is certainly a learned skill, and anyone with an IQ above room temperature can learn to write sentences. But if writing fiction could be taught the same way ordinary skills could be taught, you wouldn't have 70% of the sudents in advanced MFA classes unable to write fiction that's unreadable.

Writing fiction takes talent. It probably doesn't take a boatload of talent, but it certainly takes some, and talent and skill are not at all the same thing. All the practice and teaching in the world can't take the place of talent, and can't add to talent.

[Celia Cyanide]

Like sex, you don't need skill to just bang away until your masterpiece is completed.

Jon

Sure you think you don't need skill! You're a dude! ;)

[tab]

The technical skill of writing can be taught. The innate skill that truely talented writers bring to the craft cannot be, unfortunately.

[SpookyWriter]

Sure you think you don't need skill! You're a dude! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Whatever makes me happy, true?

:Trophy:

[badducky]

Of course not! You don't need skill.


Ever read something in print that you thought stank and reeked and stunk?

All you need is the right niche, and a ton of persistence.

[jst5150]

This feels like the same argument that gets conjured up when asked, "Is golf a sport?" Or auto racing. Or bowling.

In the article I posted farther back on this thread(I have no relation to that person, BTW), it gave choice between skill, art and something else. I'll focus on the first two.

Now ...

Given fingerpaints, the average 2-year-old could make a mess of a good length of butcher paper (and some would say Jackson Pollack was nothing more than a heavily caffinated, ADHD-possessing 2-year-old with more paint and larger rolls of butcher paper). Further, I'm sure a sculpter's tools in the cable guy's hands could yield, well, something a cable guy would do with sculpter's tools and a block of stone. And if you hand fired-FEMA director Mike Brown a sax, a set of drums and the lute, he could probably bang out a cludgy rendition of Leo Sayer's "More than I Can Say" that would have the consistency and vibrance of 14 high-school freshmen band members who'd rather be fishing for Boone's Farm Strawberry on a Friday night.

But (and this is a J-LO sized 'But'), that don't make it art. And just because any of those things become something that sneaks across the San Ysidro city limits as a work of something that don't make it art. Not does it mean any of those people have the skill to make ... whatever they've made ... into anything more than sloppy gruel served to weary Vikings after a pillage.

That said, when words are placed in such a way as to take breath away, make someone scream, or bring a mother to tears (without any of the aforementioned be a winning lottery ticket, a teenager's cel phone bill or a trailer park-daughter's acceptance letter into the Coral Gables Technical School (Beautician)), then that's art.

There's plenty of "been there, done that" in art. But skill -- well, there are roughly 535 NBA players that have the "Skill" to play hoops. But there's only been one Michael Jordan, one Larry Bird, one Kobe Bryant. You get the idea.

Having the skill to write can bring you workman's wages. It's when it becomes art that a new threshold is crossed, like Ben Affleck's third marriage or Calista Flockhart's first cheeseburger of the year (usually in November on Harrison Ford's ranch).

And none of this is pie-in-the-sky "big think" stuff. It's opinion-based, individual tastes that distinguish between workman-like prose and the stuff that keeps us bringing "lightning" and "lightning bug."

[stormie]

So many times I'm stopped by an acquaintance and told how they'd always wanted to write but just didn't have the time, or the patience, or whatever. My unspoken answer: You might not be a writer then. For me, writing is innate. I have to. If I don't write something each day, I feel lost. But a writer--a true writer--also has to cultivate his/her work, know the basics, know the rules, then write and rewrite until the work shines. Even when I was teaching, I'd go home, grade papers, then write. Even if it was a small 100 word piece that stayed in the back of a drawer.

[Tish Davidson]

I think the trouble is that it's hard for many people to tell on their own if their writing sucks. With many other sorts of art, it's relatively easy to see if you are doing something badly. Paint a picture badly, and you'll know if it doesn't look like your subject (Regretably, modern art sometimes lacks this criterion for knowing you're bad at it.). Play music badly, and you'll know when you've missed a note.

Bad writing is harder for the writer to judge. It's hard to tell if something is unclear if you already know what it means, or know if other readers will find your story boring if you're certain it's interesting.

I think I really began to consider myself a professional when I could tell whether my writing was horrible, poor, off-target, acceptable, good, very good or inspired and I had the guts to admit to myself that the dreadful stuff had to go and the great stuff had to be let alone.

[scribbler1382]

A friend and I were discussing whether or not writing was a skill. He said it wasn’t because anyone can write.

I think your friend's basic truth is flawed. Anyone who's spent even ten minutes reading any of the thousands of posts in the thousands of forums on the Internet already knows that the statement "anyone can write" is untrue. Now, are they capable of learning how to write? Maybe. Since they probably won't apply themselves so we can find out, we really will never know. But for the sake of argument, let's say they did apply themselves and they were able to learn how to write. Then the question becomes, are there people who innately know what others have to work hard to master? While most writers would like this to not be the case, I think it's true. But "write" in this case is simply communication, not crafting a story.

Can "story" be taught? Sure it can. To most people. There are some who simply will never get it. Also (and this makes finding a metric almost impossible) we need to consider that what makes a good story to some, appears as gibberish to others (compare any story in a literary digest with any story in a speculative magazine and you'll see what I mean).

But let's get back to the basic question. Is it a skill? For the most part it can be learned, so I'd say it is a skill. The idea that something that can be learned by everyone excludes it from being a skill is silly. Everyone can learn to drive (notwithstanding physical disabilities), and driving is considered a skill. But as with writing, there is driving and there is driving.

Can you learn to write? Sure. The question is, can you learn to write.

[SRHowen]

sometimes I think this is the dumbest idea around--is writing a skill?

Of course it is, can you learn to write? If by write you mean put words on page following the rules of grammar--yes, you can.

But can you learn to be a story teller--ficiton or otherwise? Most likely if taught by a master--all skills are taught. Do you need skill to be a writer, not if your definition of writer is someone who just puts words on page--anyone can do that. Basic unskilled labor there.

But if the words you put on paper paint a picture so others can see the same picture you can, then you have developed the skill needed to be a writer (storyteller), not just a person who writes.

Shawn

[SeanDSchaffer]

A friend and I were discussing whether or not writing was a skill. He said it wasn’t because anyone can write. My response was, true anyone can write but not everyone can write well. I’m not saying that I’m close to being even a decent writer, but I just feel that it takes more skill, dedication and ability than people realize.

Any thoughts on whether there is such a thing as a natural born ability to write, or is it just a trait that anyone can learn?


I have a friend who, long ago, told me that anyone could write a publishable manuscript. He used, as an example of this, one of the stories he told in Children's Church. (He was our Church's Children's Pastor.)

The entire story was maybe three paragraphs long, had horrible grammar, and was not even properly formatted, and he had the gall to tell me that his work was just as publishable as any major writer's.

I did not have the heart to tell this man that his work was not even close to publishable. I just nodded and acted as though I agreed with him.

The example above is what many people consider to be writing. Slap a few paragraphs together, make a barely coherent story with misspelled words and bad grammar, and you've got yourself a work worthy of Stephen King or Nora Roberts. Of course, this just is not the case, but that's how many people look at writing.

My own view of writing as 'skill vs. talent' is that not everyone can write. It takes practice and lots of it. Writing also takes patience, great care, and hard work. For this reason I'll say that writing is a skill, not a talent. Telling a good story can be a talent; writing requires real effort.

[SpookyWriter]

Are these messages getting longer and longer or is it the need for people to write, no matter what the subject?

[Euan H.]

No. Or yes, depending.

[reph]

Are these messages getting longer and longer or is it the need for people to write, no matter what the subject?
It could be both.

[Old Hack]

The lovely MacAllister (did I spell that right? Hope so) has sent me a link to the article I mentioned earlier. Thanks, darling. Here it is:

http://www.phule.net/mirrors/unskilled-and-unaware.html


And jst5150, I couldn't make your link work. I think this should take us to the same article:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4115/is_200310/ai_n9271622

Hope so.

[blisswriter]

Old Hack, I loved that article you linked to. Wonderful! I'm going to e-mail it to a few as a holiday gift. :ROFL:

Though I would love to say I was born a person who writes well (not to be confused with "I was born to write"), I too believe writing is a skill. It's taken lots of labor for me to know my work is publishable, and not just because I've gotten a submission accepted.

Hearing friends and family say "you should write a book", in response to spicy and/or entertaining e-mails I've sent them is not enough for me to consider myself a writer. The hard work I've put in, the money I've earned (what little of it there has been so far :faint:), and my determination to constantly hone my talent--these are all examples of why writing is indeed a skill, and one that needs constant sharpening lest the point get dull.

[jst5150]

Old Hack, it's the same article. The link I first used has gone 500 on us.

[triceretops]

It's a skill but is practiced like a craft.

Tri

[Jamesaritchie]

It's a skill but is practiced like a craft.

Tri

Say what? Craft is skilled practice. But if you leave out talent, there is no writing worth reading. I don't care if you practice until you're five hundred years old, if you lack talent, the writing will never be worth reading.

Writing does require skill, but neithe rskill nor craft mean a darned thing without talent.

[Jamesaritchie]

Old Hack, I loved that article you linked to. Wonderful! I'm going to e-mail it to a few as a holiday gift. :ROFL:

Though I would love to say I was born a person who writes well (not to be confused with "I was born to write"), I too believe writing is a skill. It's taken lots of labor for me to know my work is publishable, and not just because I've gotten a submission accepted.

Hearing friends and family say "you should write a book", in response to spicy and/or entertaining e-mails I've sent them is not enough for me to consider myself a writer. The hard work I've put in, the money I've earned (what little of it there has been so far :faint:), and my determination to constantly hone my talent--these are all examples of why writing is indeed a skill, and one that needs constant sharpening lest the point get dull.

So what about the writers who just sit down and write something withouut putting in the hard work and the practice, and it still sells and hits the bestseller lists and makes millions?

Writing certainly requires skill, writing certainly requires practice, but neither skill nor practice can make a person a writer unless the native talent is there.
Many writers who work hard all their lives never learn how to write well at all, and other writers who just sit down and write something sell the first effort, and keep selling, keep writing well.

How much skill writing takes is determined by how much talent the writer has. The less talent, the more skill, the more talent, the less skill.

[brokenfingers]

Say what? Craft is skilled practice. But if you leave out talent, there is no writing worth reading. I don't care if you practice until you're five hundred years old, if you lack talent, the writing will never be worth reading.

Writing does require skill, but neithe rskill nor craft mean a darned thing without talent.I would say that's true - but only as far as fiction goes. There are many writing fields where talent is not as necessary as skill. Technical writing, some copywriting, ghostwriting, etc.

(I know this is the Novel thread but there are some who might wish to dabble in other types of writing also to support their bad habit)

[aghast]

Even journalism. It doesn't take a lot of talent to be a reporter.

[jst5150]

The defining line to me is this: skill allows the writer to write it. Talent and the art of writing enables the reader to understand it. The greater the talent, and the more skilled at the art pof writing, the easier something is to read, hte more understandable it becomes and the more powerful the message sent.

[PeeDee]

Are these messages getting longer and longer or is it the need for people to write, no matter what the subject?

Well, it's interesting you should say that, and I shall explain what I mean by interestesting viz. and at length wat any fule kno and you wuld to but yo are uterly wet and a weed hem hem...

:)

[aghast]

But is "understanding it" a criteria of good writing? A lot of literary or academic stuff baffle me, and I'm an intelligent person.

[PeeDee]

That's something I think is important, but that's less "good writing skill" and more "common sense."

You can write a 500-page diatribe from the point of view of the lampshade next to the existentialist's bed, and you can do it in Icelandic and purple crayon....but the common sense in you says "But I want people to read this, I want people to enjoy my story."

And so you turn it into something readable. So yeah, I do think that's important.

[cwilliard]

Just to put this baby to bed, I won the argument. Writing is a skill and my friend accepts he might have been wrong. Just to add a little insult I also made him concede that I am the sexiest man alive. Completely false but when you're on a roll you just keep going.

Thanks for all the input and SpookyWriter- keep bangin' away :)

[PeeDee]

...it doesn't matter, though, because we've been given an opportunity to natter on, which we'll probably continue doing.

(am v. glad you won the argument, though.)

[WVWriterGirl]

I know the argument is over, but I felt I had something to add, as well.

I think that writing is a skill, and storytelling is a talent. But, I also think that there are a couple more components to Writing (with a capital "W") that just skill and talent. Desire and commitment.

A talented and skilled Writer who does not have the desire to write or commitment to continue honing their craft will never be successful (for obvious reasons). I'll give you an example.

I've always loved words. From my frist lessons in grammar and spelling in primary school, I was in love with the way words flowed over my lips and around my tongue, how they can be used to help or hurt and move someone emotionally. When I began to understand the power of words, I knew that writing was something that I had to do, no matter what career path I went down.

My friends in school were all smart; the clique I hung with were straight A students, and they put great importance on achieving those straight A's every report card, no matter what it took. They studied endlessly, did what the assignments required to their utmost ability. I did what I had to do to get passing grades, nothing more, and still managed to get A's and B's. Some of my classmates wrote competently, even skillfully, and a few even displayed talent. The only desire and commitment to writing that my classmates had ended when the assignment was over, the paper graded and the report cards handed out. They're all very successful in their chosen field, but none of them have become Writers. They had the skill, some had the talent, but they lacked desire and commitment.

Some aspects of being a Writer can be taught, and some of it is innate. I think the innate parts of Writing are desire and commitment. Talent, to some extent, can be taught or developed. Technical writing skill can be taught initially, and developed over the course of a lifetime. But, without desire and commitment to Writing, neither will progress above high-school level and make the person wielding these tools a Writer.

I've been up for 24 hours straight now, so I hope what I've written makes sense. :P

[Celia Cyanide]

Just to put this baby to bed, I won the argument. Writing is a skill and my friend accepts he might have been wrong. Just to add a little insult I also made him concede that I am the sexiest man alive. Completely false but when you're on a roll you just keep going.

Well, if Matthew McConaughey got it this year...anything's possible. ;)

[scarletpeaches]

It's the accent, Celia. I definitely would if he spoke to me the way he sounded (ouch, bad grammar) in The Wedding Planner. I mean, you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're stoking the fire. :ROFL:

[Kasey Mackenzie]

Not to mention, he was pretty darned buff in Sahara. =) That plus the accent is most likely why he won this year.

[scarletpeaches]

Plus, he plays the bongos naked. That, my friend, is a classy guy.

[pianoman5]

1. No skill, no talent.

Capable of sentiments like, 'Writting (sic) is not a skill, because anyone can do it. Some day, I shall write a book and it will be, like, so awesome.'

2. Some skill, no talent.

That well known beast, the hack. May hold down a job on a small town newspaper.

3. Lots of skill, no talent.

A pitiable party: self aware and self-critical, diligent, much rejected, frustrated, depressed and doomed to small-press publication. Journalism is full of such people. At least they can make a steady income from writing, often better than moderately successful fiction authors.

4. No skill, some talent.

The kind teachers like to take under their wing and foster. With humility and application they might make it.

5. Some skill, some talent.

Promising. Your future is in your own hands. Work hard and you'll get there.


6. Lots of skill, lots of talent.

Almost everything you need to make it. Agents and editors write personal notes of encouragement on your rejection slips.

7. Plenty of skill, lots of talent, perseverance, and luck.

Your publishing contract awaits you. Be prepared for the fickle finger of fate to make you a household name and deliver the fabulous wealth that unknowing people associate with all published writers. Although it's equally possible that you'll be visited by the frigid midget with the rigid digit, who will condemn you to artistic recognition in a life of penury.

[Mistook]

There's talent, and there's skill, but I'd say inspiration is the third leg that allows the stool to stand and be stable. If I were to add a fourth leg, it would be motivation.

'Inspiration' as I'm using it here means the ability to formulate ideas about which to write. Often this can be spontaneous - an aha moment where the story, or some critical aspect of the story just "comes" to you. But inspiration can also be sought and found in... well in anything if you're receptive to it.

I do believe that anybody can be taught to open themselves to inspiration. It's easier for some than for others, but I think it's a function of the mind that is always working on some level. Everybody has kooky dreams in their sleep. Anybody can stare at an ink blot and resolve some kind of image.

Talent may well be in inborn 'gift' that can't be learned, but then again, I think you can break down good fiction writing into a list of various talents - for dialogue, and for description, etc. I think a person can learn at least to identify the areas where they have real talent, and gear the writing to maximize those advantages. The rest can be carried by skill and inspiration.

And I do think there is an interplay between the three - talent, skill, inspiration. As with the three legged stool, weight can be shifted from one place to another without the thing crashing to the floor.

[SpookyWriter]

I think my point was that everyone wants their thoughts expressed and the messages get longer, but nothing new is said. Now don't get me wrong, sure I think everyone deserves to express their thoughts but where's the unique idea that writing is anything other than skill. talent or imagination?

Give me some rotting flesh to describe the premise that writing is a skill or a talent. Meat! I want something new and exciting to explain the worm protruding from my forehead while I scribble out a few hapless thoughts.

Next!

Jon

[DivaNicoletta]

Skill, and imagination :banana:

[Tish Davidson]

I think my point was that everyone wants their thoughts expressed and the messages get longer, but nothing new is said. Now don't get me wrong, sure I think everyone deserves to express their thoughts but where's the unique idea that writing is anything other than skill. talent or imagination?

Give me some rotting flesh to describe the premise that writing is a skill or a talent. Meat! I want something new and exciting to explain the worm protruding from my forehead while I scribble out a few hapless thoughts.

Next!

Jon

Give me a brea.. This is a social forum, not a classroom. If you think the thread is boring, and the posts too long, don't read it.

[SpookyWriter]

Give me a brea.. This is a social forum, not a classroom. If you think the thread is boring, and the posts too long, don't read it.

Repetition isn't necessarily engaging. But that's for the board Étagère where I might go for relaxtion.

Tot zein!

Jon

[AncientEagle]

Where would Mozart be if he didn't have his training?

In the grave?

[stace001]

The navy has this incredible, billion-dollar nuclear submarine thingie, and it won't go. Their top engineers can't make it go. So they call in a civilian in desperation. "Make it go," they plead.

So the civilian expert walks through the sub, sniffing the air here, sticking his head in circuits there. Finally, he takes out a hammer and taps a pipe. The sub starts up, and from then on, works fine.

The expert submits his bill to the Navy. "$500,000 for fixing nuclear sub" it reads. Furious, the Navy lets him know they think his fee is outrageous. He just tapped with a hammer, right? So they tell him to submit an itemized bill.

Which he does:

"For tapping with hammer: $1.00.
For knowing where to tap: $499,000."

Writing---anyone can do it. Writing well? Priceless.

SusanR
Brilliant. Just brilliant.:Clap:

[Optimus]

He said it wasn’t because anyone can write.
Unfortunately, far too many people actually believe this load of crap, which is why we have so many clueless dilettantes squirting out horrible dreck from their talentless arses. I don't know how it is in the novel-writing world but I imagine it's not too different from the screenwriting world, where a person thinks he/she can write simply because he/she likes movies and can write his/her name. They don't seem to be able to fathom that writing is not only a skill, but an art.

Just because someone can pick up a paintbrush doesn't mean they're the next Picasso.
Take the test (http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/quiz_list.htm) and if you pass within the top 85 percentile then you move on to the next level. Many writers have a difficult time with structure.
I think the bigger problem (at least in screenwriting) is with story structure, not necessarily sentence structure.

Yes, grammar/syntax/general sentence structure is quite important, but I've encountered many more people who can string together a nice sentence, but couldn't dramatically structure a decent story to save their lives, than I've met people who can expertly structure a story, but can't write an intelligible sentence.

However, the largest group I encounter are people who just genuinely have horrible ideas.

[Optimus]

I think my point was that everyone wants their thoughts expressed and the messages get longer, but nothing new is said. Now don't get me wrong, sure I think everyone deserves to express their thoughts but where's the unique idea that writing is anything other than skill. talent or imagination?

Give me some rotting flesh to describe the premise that writing is a skill or a talent. Meat! I want something new and exciting to explain the worm protruding from my forehead while I scribble out a few hapless thoughts.

Next!

Jon

Okay.

Soak this in...

http://www.scriptsales.com/boards/showthread.php?t=15985

[egem]

Yes, writing is a skill. As a matter of fact I would say it is mostly skill. So what. I don't think any of us would like it if it wasn't a skill. There can be a creative side to it, but let's remember journalist and tech writers abound. They may not think of themselves as artists or magic word weavers. They use their skill to make a living just like the novelist does.

We love it, and it is close to us, so we want to see it for more than it is sometimes. We don't have to. We are all communicating through an old language that is rooted in the ancient world. It has bonded lovers and started wars. It is the result of thousands of years of humankind's understanding of the world and each other. It like nothing else defines us and goes before us through time to others. It is organic and ever growing ever changing. If I or anyone wants to take up this skill and run after it for mastery, why not call them skilled? I think the art and beauty are in the tools that are being used here. Using those tools is a craft founded in skill.

[arrowqueen]

I think that getting published and paid are the real skills - but then I'm just crass and mercenary.

[Sassenach]

Yes, writing is a skill. As a matter of fact I would say it is mostly skill. So what. I don't think any of us would like it if it wasn't a skill. There can be a creative side to it, but let's remember journalist and tech writers abound. They may not think of themselves as artists or magic word weavers. They use their skill to make a living just like the novelist does.



I'm a journalist and a fiction writer, and both are creative--in different ways. But I'd never use an expression like 'magic word weaver.'