Prophecies in fantasy

Cliched, IMHO. A bit like clunky foreshadowing, and lends itself to the dreaded deus ex machina plot device.

Usually an annoying cliche, if it's presented as a straightforward plot like this:

X was prophesied to happen.
X happens more or less as described.

The "prophesy doesn't quite mean what you think it does" has also been done to death. It appears in enough famous sources, from MacBeth to Tolkien's defeat of the king of the Nazgul, that fantasy readers will be looking for alternative interpretations. If you have an oracle tell the villain, "No weapon shall prevail against you," readers will see it a mile away if he gets killed by an unarmed opponent. There is no more obvious death sentance in fantasy than a slightly ambiguous prophesy that implies you are invincible.

A prophesy can work if given enough interesting and unusual twists. For example, David Eddings's tales about Garion had two unusual twists: There were two competing prophesies, and the prophesies were actual characters that talked to the other characters.

Other strange twists that I could see that might set a prophesy story apart, if done well:

1. The protagonist finds a prophesy that implies he is to be a horrible villain who destroys the world.
2. False prophets achieve widespread credibility.
3. Due to a quite reasonable misinterpretation, everyone thinks a prophesy has already come true - and it hasn't.
4. A religious figure takes a vague prophesy and develops it into elaborate, full-blown specifics (such as with Rapture / Dispensationalism theology). And turns out to be dead wrong.

Depends, really. A prophecy can be integral to the plot when used as a device -- the hero having a set time interval to decipher the prophecy, perhaps -- but otherwise tends to function as a mood-killer that could ruin an otherwise good plot twist.

One type I like to use is the "false prophecy" or vision of what <i>could</i> happen if the hero <i>doesn't</i> succeed, but not what will happen if they do.

Ultimately though, it's only a prophecy if the event occurs as prophecied. Otherwise, it's just words.

-Nick

how about a prophesy of a chosen one to detroy the evil people. But she wasn't really chosen, and it's not really her, she just powers the real 'chosen one' who isn't chosen either, he just happens to stumble in because a god saw his power and decided to use it, he wasn't really part of the world, it was all a mistake (or would you consider that as chosen? ... )? it's kinda confusing i guess

So... the subplot where my modern day sorceror is having an affair with the Oracle of Delphi is clichéd?

Did I mention that even though she's several hundred years old she's still hot?

Sage said:

My thought on a good way to use prophecy is to make the outcome unknown even to the one that's making it. Even in a "chosen one" situation, the phrophesizer (is that a word?) doesn't know whether they will succeed, only that they could succeed. Something about that person makes them special (bloodline, extraordinary luck, the evil chick is his type & he hers & they'll fall madly in love... well, hopefully), but that in no way guarantees a success. I also prefer for it to make sense (w/in the rules of that world). Don't just chose Joe Regular with absolutely no reason why he is the "chosen one" except that the oracle says he is. It doesn't have to be obvious why it has to be him or her right then, but somewhere in the story I want a logical reason why.

But really, I've never understood where the suspense is when a prophecy tells that the "chosen one" WILL defeat the Big Bad. Yes, the journey is interesting, but the climax is much less climatic.

(All this said, I have a fortune telling character in my WIPs, but there are certain events she can't see past for each person (or for everyone, if it's an important enough event). The only "prophecy" is based on events that happen each 5000 years, so it's really a combination of history & suggestions provided by the fortune teller)

Click to expand...

i never said the 'chosen one' would succeed (did I? *scrolls down* nope...well, maybe, I didn't say all prophesies come true). Like in david edding's books, the prophesy needs help, i think. Anyway the prophesy isn't the drive of the book.

There are ways around super glueing a plot to a prophecy. In other words, you can foreshadow an event or a person, but also imply the outcome is not known.

IMO you should avoid prophecy giving outcomes. In other words, Aragorn would come, but there was still a chance it wouldn't make a difference. Or there was never a guarantee that if Aragorn took the throne, that until Sauron was destroyed, his kingdom could fall again.

If you give an outcome, put it in such language as to be "veiled" or hidden, and the meaning would only be revealed when the time came. What does "duck duck soup at ten" mean?

The other question is where does the prophecy come from? In my fantasy WIP, prophecies for the far future don't work. This world has a pantheon of gods similar to Greek and Roman mythology, i.e. each god has limited powers and controls specific aspects, like war, change, etc. Not even the gods are powerful enough to predict what will happen given that mortals have free will and freedom over their own actions. The gods are able to extrapolate events in the short term and can give mortals hints through dreams and visions as to what actions they can take to create a good outcome, but the universe itself prevents the gods from acting directly in mortal affairs. The last time the gods tried, they nearly destroyed the world so the universe kicked them out.

Part of this is to keep the characters doing their own thinking rather than relying on all powerful entities to come in and save the day. It also allows me to use a more powerful entity as guide, but the characters need to figure out what the gods are trying to tell them, and then decide for themselves whether they'll go along with the plan. I might have a couple of catch-all prophecies kicking around, but they'll be rubbish (though the characters might not know it), and who knows, maybe some parts will actually come true through sheer coincidence.

I find prophecies to be interesting. Almost all of the strories I think of involve them, but not in the way they are commonly used.

In one it is a central plot that a character finds a torn page of a prophecy that has predicted the future with accuracy beyond just guessing. Unfortunately, from the few pages he finds he discovers how he will die. He also learns there is nothing he can do to stop it as he has tried before but failed. The entire universe is adhering to the prophecy that brings it in a never ending loop of birth and destruction, but he doesn't know the reason why it has been happening. Yet this time everything appears to be different. History seems to be heading to a point where humanity can finally reach paradise, but he knows that man's ascension has been foretold in those scattered pages. Even if the current path may lead to heaven, would it be of any meaning if it has already been predicted or is he just being a character in a story where he cannot change the outcome?

Another has a self-proclaimed prophet claiming an ancient prophecy to foretell the fall of the gods and seeks the descendent of the legendary Titan. He uses ancient texts to put people in fear and carry more weight to his words along with a few magic tricks to show his power. But even he is surprised when he discovers the bloodline has left an heir who happens to be a depressed stock broker who happens to be one of the enemy. Still it builds up to the descendent's ascension, which finally happens until it is uncovered as ayet another deception.

The last one is about a guy who by luck ends up fulfilling a prophecy and is selected to be a religious leader/holy warrior. Unfortunately that means all his dreams will be put aside for a life of celibacy spewering speeches from the corrupt leadership. When trying to escape, aided by a friend, his friend is killedand they interpret it as the coming of a great evil. He is sent on a quest to vanquish a monster that doesn't even exist. The only way he could ever escape such a life is if he were to break the prophecy.

Basically, I think prohpecies tend to take away value of what the characters do. What was so special if he was supposed to do something regardless of the choices or decisions he makes? Thereis no free will. Their lives have no meaning because nothing they can do will make a difference.

What about prophesies that anyone can fill, I mean not that literally anyone can fill it but it's a description, encrypted or not, such as Mercedes Lackey and Andre Norton's Halfblood chronicals. That holds the whole question about whether or not the charcter is the prophesized one. But then most readers will assume so. There a few twists you can play up, however.
1. there are three candidates that can fill the prophesy and the reader doesn't know which one.
2. the author leads on the reader with one when its really the other
3. someone, how doesn't match the prophesy ends up fulfilling it so that the reader goes, 'wait what? the prophesy said...'
4. The prophesy is fulfilled by the one who is supposed to but in a way that the reader doesn't realize it
5. the reader doesn't know what the prophesy is, just that the MC will do something important to the salvation of the world. and lastly
6. the MC is not the prophesized one but there's a prophesy anyways. This last one can go several ways, for example,
A.the MC could do something to affect the prophesy or prophesized one, or even be the parent of the prophesized one (a friend of mine did that).
B.Or the MC could have absolutely nothing to do with the prophesy but everyone thinks he does, including himself maybe (kinda like narselon said) C.or even the MC is not the prophesized one and the prophesy is just in there to confuse the hell out of everyone ( )

Prophecies are one of my pet peeves (along with dead characters coming back to life). I cannot understand why fantasy authors so often use prophecies, which tell the reader what is going to happen. Robert Jordan's entire plot is revealed in the prologue to his interminable series, isn't it? It makes no sense to me at all. There should be a moratorium declared on prophecies.

From Diana W. Jones's "Tough Guide to Fantasyland" (p. 201):

Prophecy is used by the Management to make sure no Tourist is unduly surprised by events.... All Prophecies come true. This is a Rule....
(She then goes on to categorize eight kinds of prophecies.)

What if there were a prophecy and, based on what is assumed about prophecies, a reader assumed that it was true about the MCs? Then, you find out that the prophecy has already been fulfilled years and the people actually die differently than it says they will in the prophecy?

I believe this has been touched on in the point Jewel101 made here:

the MC is not the prophesized one but there's a prophesy anyways.

Click to expand...

Perhaps it's just me, but this possibility seems like an interesting twist. Would this take the idea of a prophecy out of the mundane for you, assuming that the prophecy does not drive the story (it's more of a character sub-plot?).

I'm torn over prophecies. In my first novel, there is no prophecy, just a vague destiny that the characters know they're part of, but nothing else. Only one character knows what is supposed to happen, and she's keeping the rest of the characters out of the loop because of her own fears that her companions will abandon her. Oh, did I forget to mention that the one who knows is a goddess?

In my second novel, the MC goes to have a meeting with an oracle at his father's behest, but only because he's forced to. He puts no stock whatsoever in what the woman tells him; it wouldn't really matter, anyway, because her prophecy for him is so vague that it makes no sense at all. I'm hoping that it won't become clear to the character (or the reader, for that matter) what it really meant until it's too late for everyone to stop, and the main thrust of the book will deal with the aftermath.

Are these "bad" uses of prophecy? I dunno. I suppose that if it's done with style and with a different approach, prophecy can be quite interesting. Even what starts out as seeming cliched can be turned into something more with a twist done right.

WVWriterGirl said:

Even what starts out as seeming cliched can be turned into something more with a twist done right.

Click to expand...

yup

loquax said:

- Cliched automatic plot-generators or as integral as magic, dwarves, and dragons?

Click to expand...

I don't know. I usually don't use prophecies that directly have anything to do with my storyline. Yet for the story I'm working on now prophecy is an integral part. It's a prophecy that someone takes upon himself to change to what he thinks it should say, instead of what it really does.

I don't usually care very much for prophecy stories, simply because many of them take the fun out of the read. But if the prophecy is somehow tainted and people don't know this until, say, the middle of the book (when everything is going awry because of belief in the tainted prophecy,) then I believe the prophecy story becomes a good read again.

Another fun one to read is a prophecy story where no one knows where the prophecy came from or believes it's really going to come true. That's a kind of story I really do enjoy. The book I'm reading right now is like that, and it's a very enjoyable story.

But in my opinion, if the prophecy is a definite thing and we know from the beginning what exactly is going to happen, that is just not something I want to read, because to me the fun is in the idea that I don't know what exactly is going to happen next.

So for me, it really just depends on how the prophecy is used.

Culture is the answer.


In ancient Greece, prophecy was a part of daily life. Taoism utilizes prophecy as well as other eastern religions as a matter of course.

However, in America, and most of Renaissance-era Western europe, prophets are laughingstocks.

Stay true to your artistic vision. Just be sure your prophecy is more complex than just "Take Magical Item X to Magical Place Y and Shove it into Magical Villian Z".

Prophecies also tend to be self-fulfilling. In a lot of Greek myths a prophecy is made, the person the prophecy is about does something to prevent the prophecy from coming true, and in so doing causes the event to occur. If they didn't do anything at all or hadn't heard the prophecy in the first place, they would have been fine or at least wouldn't have met the same terrible end. Prophecy can be a punishment as well as a blessing.

A prophecy is a great way to play mind games with a character. Even if the character doesn't believe the prophecy, their behavior still may be altered. Have someone tell a character they'll be killed by a flock of flying monkeys. They might not believe it, but they still might cringe every time they hear the sound of wings. Kind of like the flying carpet that only works if you don't think of white elephants.

I had to look up deux ex machina because I'd heard the term, but never paid attention to the definition. In my alt. history about Edward V, I created a race of humans from a parallel Earth who will, by the end of the series, turn out to be the main antagonists of the series. On one hand, one can argue they're a device of DEM, but only if you don't understand how important they become in the series. The series is heading toward a great cataclysm my alternate Earth humans want to avoid. In the end, they turn out to be the cause of the disaster.

But, in the beginning, the only thing these alternates do is convince Richard of Gloucester (real-life Richard III) to support his nephew as King, rather than assume the throne based on the Bishop of Bath's weak evidence of the princes' illegitimacy.
Oh, and they give Edward V gold to pay his army...save stress on the Kingdom and prevent most of the English from grumbling about excessive taxes.

So, they help in both DEM and non-DEM ways. In that regard, I think I present it effectively. (To make sure I actually say something on prophecy, these alternates have the ability to send and receive information from the future---but not actual travel, just info---which is not the same thing as prophecy)

David

what if a prophesy says that the MC is going to kill the the bad guy but then the bad guy tourns out to be the MCs parent or sibling or best friend. Would you read that? I mean since the reader knows that the prophest has to come true but the MC just can't do it, wouldn't you want to see what happens? I would