Challenges With Children's Writing?

MorganMarshall

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I've had a lot of experience with other writers, and one thing I have noticed is that writers of adult fiction (or non-fiction) tend to have entirely different challenges than children's writers. Talking to the former, I find myself almost speaking a different language. I'm interested to see if any of my fellow children's writers have had this same experience, and what kinds of challenges are the hardest for you to overcome?
 

Ferret

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The voice can be tricky to master, especially when writing in first person.
 

Smish

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Honestly, I think all writers - of whatever genre - face the same overall challenges: character, plot, voice, pacing, etc. No matter what you write, the biggest challenge is writing a compelling story. ;)

As for me personally? I do really well with character, voice, and setting (in my view, setting is really just another character), but I'm a terrible plotter. So, that's where I struggle most.

ETA: Perhaps if you tell us what you mean by "a different language", and make your question a bit more specific, we could have a better discussion.
 

MorganMarshall

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Ferret, I've been struggling with voice too, but I think I might have a better one than I thought, which would be nice. The hardest part of it is being too close to it to see it properly, in my experience.

Smish, sorry for the vagueness. I mean to say that when in a workshop situation with writers for adults, I have often gotten advice that won't work for children's books, such as needing more description, more inner dialogue, less whimsy, etc. I am curious as to whether this has been an issue for anyone else, as well as / along with what everyone else might struggle with. I was thinking we could possibly help each-other with our different strengths and weaknesses.

Setting as another character... that's interesting. How so? I am great at world building, strange settings/contraptions/magics, and characters. I struggle with giving too much away too soon and remembering what I have said and what I need to add later.
 

MorganMarshall

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Voice, I believe, is a large struggle that children's writers have that adult writers might not have as much of an issue with. After all, we know how adults think and speak... not so much with children.
 

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Voice, I believe, is a large struggle that children's writers have that adult writers might not have as much of an issue with. After all, we know how adults think and speak... not so much with children.

My biggest worry is simply writing a story that they will find interesting and can relate to! There's such a big difference in what I found compelling as a child (many years ago) and what children find compelling today.

My story contains the concept of 'reading' books - something that I'm sure we all agree is important for youngsters to do. But will they read that as a theme in a book and think 'BORIING!!'?
 

Cyia

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With kids, voice is key. It needs to be relatable, but not sound like you're talking down to your target audience. You want to sound like a friend, not a teacher or parent in most cases.

Too many people set out to write a kid's book "for a reason", but then that reason takes over the entire story. The "lesson" overshadows the adventure and the kids reject it as boring (or whatever). Sadly, trying to explain this to newer writers often ends with defensive claims that you just don't agree with whatever lessn they're trying to teach.

Kids aren't stupid, and not realizing that is many writer's first mistake. They're also not imperceptive. Kids can spot a phony faster than most adults, so whatever you put on the page has to be genuine to them, not to you.

@ Gigi - the markets are different, but there really isn't much difference in what kids found compelling 20 years ago as opposed to now. They like adventure. They like laughing. They like gross things. The cool thing about stories is that, at their core, they change very little over the years; only the set-dressing changes.

In the 70's/80's, kids loved the exciting tale of an orphan sent to live with his aunt and uncle who found out he was actually a very powerful being and part of a rare group few believed existed. He went off with a wizened old mentor to train, and in the end he faced the big bad confidently, but not without loss. Love turned out to be his greatest asset, as it was the sacrifice of one of his parents which saved his life.

Back then, they called it Star Wars. But kids in the 90's/00's enjoyed the same story starring a boy named Harry. Just replace light sabres with wands and rename Leia/Han Hermione/Ron. (I'm not sure, but I think Neville may secretly be a wookie.)
 

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Smish, sorry for the vagueness. I mean to say that when in a workshop situation with writers for adults, I have often gotten advice that won't work for children's books, such as needing more description, more inner dialogue, less whimsy, etc. I am curious as to whether this has been an issue for anyone else, as well as / along with what everyone else might struggle with. I was thinking we could possibly help each-other with our different strengths and weaknesses.


The main difference I've found in writing for kids versus adults is being very careful in kid-writing to make absolutely sure I need whatever bits of inner dialogue and introspection I add in. The plot, the connection with the characters and the interesting details of the world-building are what I think the majority of kids are reading for. They aren't reading to come to some deeper understanding of themselves or others, though in the best books it happens anyway.
 

MsJudy

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Seems to me you're asking too different questions.

What makes writing for kids hard is different from What makes writing for kids different from writing for adults, and why don't the people in my writing group get it?

Writing for kids isn't actually harder than writing for kids, but it definitely takes some different skills. For one thing, not everyone can really put themselves back in the mind of a kid. So they write from the perspective of a grown-up looking back fondly on the past--which feels phony or patronizing or boring to kids. Or they write from cliché, which is just as bad.

Another thing that I think is more of a challenge is the need to get right to the point. When I read an adult book like The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, I am amazed at how much extraneous detail and backstory gets included. Kids want the story, the whole story, and nothing but the story. If it isn't important, move along.
 

GigiF

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Too many people set out to write a kid's book "for a reason", but then that reason takes over the entire story. The "lesson" overshadows the adventure and the kids reject it as boring (or whatever). Sadly, trying to explain this to newer writers often ends with defensive claims that you just don't agree with whatever lessn they're trying to teach.

Kids aren't stupid, and not realizing that is many writer's first mistake. They're also not imperceptive. Kids can spot a phony faster than most adults, so whatever you put on the page has to be genuine to them, not to you.

Could you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand what you mean?

Set out to write a kids book 'for a reason'? A reason other than to get a book published?

The lesson overshadows the adventure? What lesson?

Are you refering more to short children's books that try and teach or show kids a very simple morale guideline?

Does this translate to full 65000 word books?
 

MorganMarshall

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In the 70's/80's, kids loved the exciting tale of an orphan sent to live with his aunt and uncle who found out he was actually a very powerful being and part of a rare group few believed existed. He went off with a wizened old mentor to train, and in the end he faced the big bad confidently, but not without loss. Love turned out to be his greatest asset, as it was the sacrifice of one of his parents which saved his life.

Back then, they called it Star Wars. But kids in the 90's/00's enjoyed the same story starring a boy named Harry. Just replace light sabres with wands and rename Leia/Han Hermione/Ron. (I'm not sure, but I think Neville may secretly be a wookie.)

Wonderful example! I have also seen a lot of people talking about kids characters needing to be extremely shocked by fantasy settings, but in my reading experience, most child protagonists, while surprised when they find themselves in a strange world, aren't exactly dying of shock. Take Alice, for example. Her reaction? "Curiosor and curiosor!" Not exactly "OHMYGODWHATTHEHELLMAN?" And Dorthy, when she makes it to Oz, says "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore", which doesn't strike me as all that super amazed, just a statement of fact. Maybe surprised, but not ready to faint. It seems to me a lot of ADULTS would freak out, but kids... they roll with things like that a lot easier. We as writers, in my humble opinion, are the ones who need to remember that. WE may be adults, but our protagonists are not, and therefore would not react the same way we would in most situations.

And that ^^ I believe, is probably the very hardest thing about writing kids' books.

The main difference I've found in writing for kids versus adults is being very careful in kid-writing to make absolutely sure I need whatever bits of inner dialogue and introspection I add in. The plot, the connection with the characters and the interesting details of the world-building are what I think the majority of kids are reading for. They aren't reading to come to some deeper understanding of themselves or others, though in the best books it happens anyway.
Exactly! I've struggled with that a lot in my career. My first book, The Veiling Society, has far too much explanation and inner dialogue and far too little action. At the time I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put my finger on what, exactly. It's funny how we have everything we need as kids to write kids' books except professional writing style, then as adults, when we gain that, we lose everything else and have to find a way to get it back.

What makes writing for kids hard is different from What makes writing for kids different from writing for adults, and why don't the people in my writing group get it?
Not really. To me, many of the issues children's writers face are very different than those adult writers face -- issues that have been mentioned in this thread so far, in fact. My experience with speaking to adult writers and children's writers has been very different, which to me has a lot to do with those things we do not have in common. So I didn't really ask why adult writers don't "get it" (actually I belong to SCBWI, which is my writing group, so they DO "get it"), I asked what the differences are and what you all, as fellow children's writers, struggle with.

Writing for kids isn't actually harder than writing for kids, but it definitely takes some different skills.
I'm guessing your second "kids" is supposed to be "adults", so I'll go with that. ;) And I entirely agree. I don't believe any kind of writing is harder than any other kind. Actually, I couldn't write a PB if you paid me, and have a lot of respect for those who can. The same goes for poetry. Some people tell me they're amazed that I can write novels. It's all difficult/fun/amazing for different reasons. So yeah, I entirely agree with you here.

For one thing, not everyone can really put themselves back in the mind of a kid. So they write from the perspective of a grown-up looking back fondly on the past--which feels phony or patronizing or boring to kids. Or they write from cliché, which is just as bad.
Once more, we come back to this theme... which just confirms to me that it is quite possibly the hardest part of being a kids' writer. How do you get back your own childhood? You can't, of course, but in order to truly write for kids, you have to get as close as possible, which isn't at ALL easy to do.

Another thing that I think is more of a challenge is the need to get right to the point. When I read an adult book like The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, I am amazed at how much extraneous detail and backstory gets included. Kids want the story, the whole story, and nothing but the story. If it isn't important, move along.
Which makes certain genres a very big challenge. Science Fiction, I have found, is one of those genres. There is generally a lot of backstory to a SciFi story, and a lot of world-building as well. Of course, a writer doesn't want to put everything they know into a story, but what should be put in, and what should be left out? Another aspect of that difficulty is whimsy. At least for me. I adore whimsy, but I can't seem to quite get it right. Things still have to make SENSE for me... work for the plot and storyline... and whimsy is very difficult to do that with. It either ends up being gratuitous or confusing. Ugh. :Headbang:
 
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t0dd

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Wonderful example! I have also seen a lot of people talking about kids characters needing to be extremely shocked by fantasy settings, but in my reading experience, most child protagonists, while surprised when they find themselves in a strange world, aren't exactly dying of shock. Take Alice, for example. Her reaction? "Curiosor and curiosor!" Not exactly "OHMYGODWHATTHEHELLMAN?" And Dorthy, when she makes it to Oz, says "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore", which doesn't strike me as all that super amazed, just a statement of fact. Maybe surprised, but not ready to faint.

Of course, Alice's adventures in Wonderland were all a dream, and maybe her being in a dream suspended her faculties of shock. (Her being in a dream might also be the reason why every time she tries to recite a poem, it goes hilariously wrong.)

Baum, I think, summed up Dorothy's response beautifully when the Good Witch of the North, after advising her to consult the Wizard at the Emerald City, simply disappears in an act of magic: since she's a witch, Dorothy thinks, of course she would disappear that way.
 
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MsJudy

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How do you get back your own childhood?

I'm not sure that's quite the right goal. In fact, I think that's where so many people go wrong. They're striving to recapture the feelings they had back then. But books have to be more real than Real Life, if you know what I mean. So it's more a matter of understanding how a young character would experience a situation, and make that feel real. But trying too hard to recapture your own experience can really get in the way of writing a good story.

One of the reasons I write for kids and not grown-ups is that I never really learned how to think like an adult. I was such a geeky teenager, because I just never wanted to grow up and act "cool." So I can write kid characters pretty easily. But when I tried to write adult fiction...it just came across as juvenile.
 

Polenth

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Voice, I believe, is a large struggle that children's writers have that adult writers might not have as much of an issue with. After all, we know how adults think and speak... not so much with children.

I know how I spoke and what I thought as a child, but I'm not writing about me. I'm writing about other children. I figure them out the same as I would for an adult character - by people watching.

But writing from a child's perspective is not a challenge unique to one age category. Child narrators appear in both adult and children's fiction.

The difference really comes in what you show. Adults are more tolerant of slower paced stuff, and likely to expect some parts of the book to move at a gentler pace. Children won't tolerate as much of that. So no matter how realistic it is for the child narrator to talk about their new red shoes for six pages, it'll need heavy pruning for a child audience. Not because it's unrealistic, but because they'll stop reading.
 

MorganMarshall

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Oh, I totally agree with both of you, MsJudy and Polenth. By "getting back our childhood" I meant the ability to think like a child, not reminiscing it.
 

Debbie V

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Writing for kids means writing for a broad range of ages, capabilities and experience levels.

Writing for the youngest kids does present challenges that writing for adults or even older children doesn't. We need to control rhythm more firmly because our books will be read aloud and leave room for the pictures. I believe picture books are closer to poems than novels in style and often structure, especially with today's tight word counts.

Writing for beginning readers presents other challenges, controlling vocabulary while keeping the story compelling is one.
 

Laura J

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In the 70's/80's, kids loved the exciting tale of an orphan sent to live with his aunt and uncle who found out he was actually a very powerful being and part of a rare group few believed existed. He went off with a wizened old mentor to train, and in the end he faced the big bad confidently, but not without loss. Love turned out to be his greatest asset, as it was the sacrifice of one of his parents which saved his life.

Back then, they called it Star Wars. But kids in the 90's/00's enjoyed the same story starring a boy named Harry. Just replace light sabres with wands and rename Leia/Han Hermione/Ron. (I'm not sure, but I think Neville may secretly be a wookie.)

^^^:D Neville is a wookie, LOL.

My son took a homeschool class that was called Hero Quest or something like that. The teacher talked about how it is the same story over and over with new settings, the classic hero quest. King Arthur, Gwenievre (sp) and Lancelot, with Merlin. Luke, Leia, Han and Obi Wan, Harry, Ron, Hermione with Dumbledore. Percy, Annabeth, and Grover (can't remember mentor, Kyron??) And she names a few more. The class was loosely based on Joseph Campbell's Power of the Myth. Which was amazing, because most kids were 8-10 years old, and it has stayed with them in a profound way, my son included.

We see it everywhere, in books, movies, etc... The kids all wrote a short story with the classic triad.
There is a book about how Star Wars is a classic hero quest myth. Really cool.

She also touched on how girls have hero quests but they are structured differently. She taught that separately from the Hero Quest.
 
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MorganMarshall

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I believe picture books are closer to poems than novels in style and often structure, especially with today's tight word counts.

Oh, VERY true! I'm not adept at writing poetry or picture books, and I've realized that they are very closely related... and that relation has a lot to do with why I suck at writing them. :ROFL:I'm going to try to write five picture books for Christmas presents for my kids based on The Elemental characters I created for them. While I'm sure my kids will love them, I certainly don't plan on publication! I have so much respect for anyone who can write a compelling, moving and entertaining piece of poetry or short prose. It is an artform in and of itself, for sure.

She also touched on how girls have hero quests but they are structured differently.

Interesting. I always wanted to do a quest-stye story with a girl as the protagonist, and always wondered why there weren't any (or more of them, now that there are a few). How are they structured different, do you know?
 

Laura J

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I have a novel idea that has to do with the Elments. My son has always talked about the Elements. Hmmm.... i have lots of notes on it already, but my current WIP took over.

Oh, I'm not sure about the girl quest. We didn't take that class, I think she limited it to a girl's class. I started off with a girl quest, but changed to twins. The girl is the main pov. I have her friends that are two girls, one is funny, silly, and the other serious. So, it follows the same triad. But, it went off that path all on it's own.
 

MorganMarshall

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I can't really see why it would differ, so I'm very curious. Maybe I'll do a little research...

"The Elementals" is a series I started working on a few years back. The main characters are based on my own children. They're half human and half fae, descended from the original Elementals who were created by human and fae together to defend the elemental plains against an evil sorcerer named Adams. My eldest (age 15) is Mistress Ellen, Daughter of the Skies (Air) and her character is half human, half sylph. My next eldest (13) is Sorceress Mae, Daughter of Alchemy (Fire) and her character is half human, half dragon. My middle daughter (10) is Princess Kat, Daughter of the Muses (Water), and she's half human, half mermaid. My only son (8) is Sir Quinn, Son of Valor (Earth), and he's half human, half dwarf. Finally, my youngest (4) is Enchantress Rose, Daughter of Wisdom (spirit), and her character is half human, half elf.

I've written the first book, but it needs a lot of work. That said, I've had a blast with them, and have done tons of world building around it, including mythology and tons of fantasy lore.
 

Laura J

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Wow, that sounds like a beautiful story. Your kids are so lucky to have an imaginative mom. Very different. That would be a cool RPG game. My son is always looking to write those. Are these picture books did you say?

My idea was into the concept of shapeshifters. I didn't get very far.

Sounds amazing.

I don't see why you couldn't make a quest for girls with the triad.
 

MorganMarshall

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The actual manuscript is middle grade. I can't remember the exact page number. I'm writing some picture books based on the original as Christmas gifts for my kids because they're waiting so patiently for me to finish the series.

Thank-you for the compliment. I wish I could work on everything at once. I have a four-book Gothic fantasy series I'm working on with the seasons as well, and a YA science fiction idea about past-lives. And, of course, "Guts and Glory", which is my current, front-burner WIP. Far too many ideas and not nearly enough time! :Headbang:

Shapeshifters huh? That's always a fun subject. The Elementals can turn into their fae selves, so I suppose they could be called that.
 

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MorganMarshall said:
Interesting. I always wanted to do a quest-stye story with a girl as the protagonist, and always wondered why there weren't any (or more of them, now that there are a few). How are they structured different, do you know?

The female hero quest is often called the Armless Maiden. It's almost always darker than the male version, involving mutilation of the heroine, rejection, abandonment, restoration, and transcendence through suffering.

http://www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/rrHJourney.html
 

MorganMarshall

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Interesting... I'll have to look into that more. My next title involves the girl half of my twin protagonists, so this is very helpful. Thanks!