I *know* quoting song lyrics is a no-go, but what about this?

I don't think that's copyright infringement -- but I'm not an expert. My concern would be that anyone who is unfamiliar with the song still wouldn't get it.

The relative obscurity of the phrase makes me think that you could just as easily have the characters explore the concept of "absoluteness" without even needing to reference the song. Or one of the other characters could query the character at some point, "So where does all this talk of 'absolute' come from?"

Why don't you just say:

Jack was listening to jazz when the doorbell rang.

He swiftly walked to the door singing "Fly me to the moon..."


It doesn't quote, but he does make a reference. I see in no possible way this can infringe on copyrights.

Huh. This is a good question. In real life, I've said things like "I guess playing with the Queen of Hearts really isn't smart."

And I could see a character saying that. But it *is* a pretty strong allusion to the Juice Nation song...

trumpetology said:

The relative obscurity of the phrase makes me think that you could just as easily have the characters explore the concept of "absoluteness" without even needing to reference the song.

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Good point. By referencing the song, you carve your readership into a small slice who get it and the rest of us who don't.

Can you have a fictional singer and your own original lyrics, containing a phrase with similar meaning that could in no way be confused with the real song? Then you can quote yourself with gay abandon.

There are a few songs mentioned in this thread that I've never even heard of. You might want to consider alienating readers who haven't got a clue who these bands/singers are.

Good point. By referencing the song, you carve your readership into a small slice who get it and the rest of us who don't.

Can you have a fictional singer and your own original lyrics, containing a phrase with similar meaning that could in no way be confused with the real song? Then you can quote yourself with gay abandon.

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How does creating a fictional singer solve the alienation issue? Readers will probably assume it's a real singer. One he or she isn't familiar with.

scarletpeaches said:

There are a few songs mentioned in this thread that I've never even heard of. You might want to consider alienating readers who haven't got a clue who these bands/singers are.

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I never get song references. I'm not alienated, unless the book is really full of them. However, by mentioning what kind of music the characters like, the author is communicating something this reader has totally missed.

And we can live with characters who are different than we are. Characters who like exercise, soft background music, Brussels sprouts, or massages don't alienate me, though I hate all those things. Characters who dislike rain, latkes, bagpipes, or babies don't alienate me, though I love all those things.

Ugh. I should have said reconsider. I'm tired. Don't hate me.

BotByte said:

Why don't you just say:

Jack was listening to jazz when the doorbell rang.

He swiftly walked to the door singing "Fly me to the moon..."


It doesn't quote, but he does make a reference. I see in no possible way this can infringe on copyrights.

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"Fly me to the moon" is a line from the song "Fly Me to the Moon (In Other Words)" by Bart Howard, first published in 1954 and still in copyright, and as such you would need permission to quote it. Yes, you do need permission to quote five words of a song lyric.

Now, what you could write without getting permission would be something more like:

Jack was listening to Frank Sinatra when the doorbell rang. He walked over to open it while singing about doing it his way. Or Frank's way. Whichever seemed better.


So, yeah, you can refer to a song as long as you don't quote it.

"Don't set the alarm. I'll wake you in the morning," said Bob.
"Before you go-go?"
"Oh, barf. I hate Wham! so much."

or

"I'm just looking for satisfaction."
Jenny started to giggle. "Do you mean that in the Rolling Stones sense of the word?"

Ain't it funny how, no sooner does one thread get locked due to someone saying it's okay to use lyrics without permission, another one opens (in this case, with the OP clearly understanding the actual law as evidenced by the thread title) and someone pipes up saying it's okay to use lyrics without permission.

Seriously, BotByte, how many more times do you need to be cautioned about giving out your uninformed opinion on legal matters that you don't know anything about? This is the third time I've said something about this to you in as many threads. Your enthusiasm to help others is great, but when it comes to copyright, actual law trumps people's opinions. Since you seem to like chiming in on copyright threads, why don't you take the time to learn more about copyright law? A good place to start is AW's very own FAQ: Copyright post.

Why don't you just say:

Jack was listening to jazz when the doorbell rang.

He swiftly walked to the door singing "Fly me to the moon..."

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Because it's copyright infringement.

Ain't it funny how, no sooner does one thread get locked due to someone saying it's okay to use lyrics without permission, another one opens (in this case, with the OP clearly understanding the actual law as evidenced by the thread title) and someone pipes up saying it's okay to use lyrics without permission.

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I agree with Terie, there is a similar thread to this that was already discussed and closed. Mentioning the name of a song is fine, but quoting lyrics is not. In other words, George can listen to Staying Alive while singing along and dancing around the living room, but he cannot quote (sing) the actual lyrics.

Even my significant other, who is a professional musician, has to get permission to use other artists songs, and other artists need to get permission to use his band's songs. If it's this way between musicians, who are singing or recording a song, then a similar principal must apply to the written words (lyrics).

Susan Littlefield said:

Why don't you just say:

Jack was listening to jazz when the doorbell rang.

He swiftly walked to the door singing "Fly me to the moon..."

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Because it's copyright infringement.

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A character depicted as singing ONLY THE TITLE of a song is copyright infringement???

benbradley said:

A character depicted as singing ONLY THE TITLE of a song is copyright infringement???

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Fly me to the moon is part of the lyrics.

However, if you say George was singing Fly me to the Moon as he walked to the door, then you are mentioning the title not the lyrics.

Erm. Okay. Still kind of confused, but thanks everyone.

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That's an interesting question. Titles are okay to mention, but most titles come from lyrics...

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I would suggest a search on the topic of titles and copyrights. You can search within a particular forum, or you can do a forum-wide search.

Susan Littlefield said:

Even my significant other, who is a professional musician, has to get permission to use other artists songs, and other artists need to get permission to use his band's songs. If it's this way between musicians, who are singing or recording a song, then a similar principal must apply to the written words (lyrics).

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You can record any song that has already been recorded and published. You need what is called a "mechanical license," which is inexpensive and cannot be denied. The lyrics are part of the copyrighted work. There are so-called "fair use" provisions in copyright law that permit the use of fragments of copyrighted works, but your use has to qualify under those provisions.

If I wrote:

I walked to the door singing, "Fly me to the moon,"

It cannot be determined whether I am quoting the lyrics or the title. If, however, I follow that up with, "Let me play among the stars," I am definitely quoting lyrics and would need permission. Typically the copyright holder wants to be acknowledged in the front matter.

I had a character sing most of a Henry Rollins song while joy riding in a stolen car. My editor was okay with it once assured that the kid was stoned and got all the lyrics wrong.

Al Stevens said:

You can record any song that has already been recorded and published. You need what is called a "mechanical license," which is inexpensive and cannot be denied. The lyrics are part of the copyrighted work. There are so-called "fair use" provisions in copyright law that permit the use of fragments of copyrighted works, but your use has to qualify under those provisions.

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All I know is he said he has to get proper permission to record a song. I don't know all the particulars.

If I wrote:

I walked to the door singing, "Fly me to the moon,"

It cannot be determined whether I am quoting the lyrics or the title. If, however, I follow that up with, "Let me play among the stars," I am definitely quoting lyrics and would need permission. Typically the copyright holder wants to be acknowledged in the front matter.

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I don't want to sound rude here, but you're wrong. In fiction, anything in quotes is dialogue. As first quoted, as well as in your quote, he is singing the words of the song no matter what he follows it up with.

Now, if it were, George walked to the door singing Fly me to the Moon, that would be telling he is singing the song, not showing via dialogue.

Susan Littlefield said:

I don't want to sound rude here, but you're wrong...

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No, he's not. The use of the song's title, regardless of whether it's also part of the lyrics, does not require permission to be reproduced in any form.

As you know, or should, titles cannot be copyrighted, so the song can be freely referenced by its name in a work of fiction, or any other medium.

Al Stevens said:

You can record any song that has already been recorded and published. You need what is called a "mechanical license," which is inexpensive and cannot be denied. The lyrics are part of the copyrighted work.

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Yeah, that's specifically and only for recording a "cover" of a "published" [which in the music biz means released by a major label, or did not too long ago, but these things can change] song, and ONLY that. If you use the lyrics as part of a written work, that's different, and has nothing to do with mechanical royalties. There's a lot of twisty passages in copyright law.

There are so-called "fair use" provisions in copyright law that permit the use of fragments of copyrighted works, but your use has to qualify under those provisions.

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If I wrote:

I walked to the door singing, "Fly me to the moon,"

It cannot be determined whether I am quoting the lyrics or the title. If, however, I follow that up with, "Let me play among the stars," I am definitely quoting lyrics and would need permission. Typically the copyright holder wants to be acknowledged in the front matter.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, "Fair Use" is whatever a judge rules it is in any particular case. Song lyrics are so short that (apparently from rulings by judges) use of ANY lyric long enough to be recognized as part of the song is too much to be covered by fair use, and rights holders sue over such "minor" uses of lyrics.

There's a lot of writings on copyright law at http://copyright.gov and amazingly, most of it is in plain and easily (relative to how complicated the law is) read English. But you pretty much have to read it all, because laws in one area (such as printed word) are very different from other areas (music lyrics, musical compositions, music recordings, movies, digital encodings of these things, whatever else) and using works or excerpts of something from any of these areas in any other area.

Susan Littlefield said:

I don't want to sound rude here, but you're wrong. In fiction, anything in quotes is dialogue. As first quoted, as well as in your quote, he is singing the words of the song no matter what he follows it up with.

Now, if it were, George walked to the door singing Fly me to the Moon, that would be telling he is singing the song, not showing via dialogue.

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Do you have a reference for that? I've not heard of the "dialogue" distinction before.

When you think about it, it makes sense why titles don't enjoy copyright protection. Can you imagine every time someone referred to "dark side of the moon" in their work, they'd have to get permission from these guys first?

Silver King said:

No, he's not. The use of the song's title, regardless of whether it's also part of the lyrics, does not require permission to be reproduced in any form.

As you know, or should, titles cannot be copyrighted, so the song can be freely referenced by its name in a work of fiction, or any other medium.

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I do know that titles can't be copyrighted, therefore can be used in works. However, the example by BotByte and Al appears to have the character singing the actual lyrics, which just happens to be the title as well. Am I incorrect about this?

I think it would have been more respectful to state my opinion without saying another poster is wrong. My apologies to Al and others if I came across as headstrong.

Do you have a reference for that? I've not heard of the "dialogue" distinction before.

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Well, it appears that he is singing the lyric to the song in the examples because the words are in quotes. It could be a misinterpretation of the example.