Is 250 pages too long?

GigiF

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My novel is a fantasy action adventure aimed primarily at children between 10 and 15 but I'm also hoping to attract adults of 25+.

I remember reading somewhere that 200 pages was the absolute limit for a childrens book.

I'm at 250 pages and I think that's around about what I'll hit even after completing several drafts.

Any thoughts on this?
 

BotByte

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Take saw, hack away at it

or

Make two novels.

Some will say to NOT change it and let it go, but I believe that the genre standards are essential. You can hack at it, or find a way to round off two different stories in the second draft.
 

FictionQuest

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In my opinion it is ok. My kids are both in the 10-15 group and they happily read Harry Potter, which I assume is comparable to your scope.
 

GigiF

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In my opinion it is ok. My kids are both in the 10-15 group and they happily read Harry Potter, which I assume is comparable to your scope.

Yes, that's pretty much the demographic I'm aiming at.
 

Stijn Hommes

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The key here is what pages you're talking about.
If someone says 200 pages is the limit, they're probably talking about manuscript pages, but they're formatted differently in the actual book.
On a correctly formatted manuscript 1 page = 250 words.

400 manuscript pages for a Fantasy novel is acceptable. In book pages it's probably going to be less.
 

GigiF

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I've formatted to 8.5" x 11" size and am at 66,599 words - one less than the number of the beast is seems.. :)
 

Cyia

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1 - page count means nothing. You MUST have a word count.

2 - ages 10-15 is not "kids", nor is it an established age group for marketing. You're straddling MG (up to around age 11) and YA (12-teens). That's not a good thing; neither is trying to shoehorn the adult market in there. What that generally means is that you don't know where your book belongs.

67,000 (which is your word count for query purposes) is rather short for most fantasy, but would work well for MG.

How old is your main character? S/he should be slightly older than your target group, which will give you an idea of where your book fits.
 

GigiF

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1 - page count means nothing. You MUST have a word count.

2 - ages 10-15 is not "kids", nor is it an established age group for marketing. You're straddling MG (up to around age 11) and YA (12-teens). That's not a good thing; neither is trying to shoehorn the adult market in there. What that generally means is that you don't know where your book belongs.

What does MG stand for? You may be right. I may have put my age a little too low. I might be looking at 12+.

67,000 (which is your word count for query purposes) is rather short for most fantasy, but would work well for MG.

How old is your main character? S/he should be slightly older than your target group, which will give you an idea of where your book fits.

The main character is a grandfather figure with a young 12 yr old sidekick.

:)
 

Cyia

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MG is middle grade. YA is young adult. If your main character is 12, then this book will be aimed at 10 year-olds, not 12 year-olds. Kids "read up", meaning they like to read about people older than themselves. A 12 year-old character is too young for YA, especially if the kid is a sidekick. With that set-up, you're almost certainly writing for the MG group.
 

GigiF

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Ok, just looked up MG. It's an American term for Mid grade right? Meaning 8 - 12 yr olds?

We don't really use those terms (YA) in the UK.
 

GigiF

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It's an interesting point re' what that age range wants. My 8 yr old son has been reading Roald Dahl and C.S. Lewis books for a while now. He seems quite happy with those.

I don't think I could get the story down to the 180 page mark though... It would need a serious re-write. :(
 

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Actually, I think you may be misunderstanding industry standards. At least, based on the examples you're giving, I don't see why you'd be disagreeing. These books are right within the range agents are considering!

I disagree with industry standards
Which you certainly have the right to do. But if agents and editors agree with them, don't you have a bit of a problem?
so take my response not as a suggestion but rather as a personal opinion. In my opinion, they're holding onto old standards even though kids this age are trending in the opposite direction.
Actually, no. What you've done is lump all MG and all kids into one group, as though kids are kids and books are books.

This tells me that Insert "some" here and this statement becomes truekids this age want longer, more developed stories. They just don't want thin little books anymore.
Which "they?" I can give you the names of a whole bunch of kids who won't read anything over 100 pages unless it's Diary of a Wimpy Kid.

Mine's at 184 pages What's your word count? 184 @ 250 words per page = 46,000 words. Unless you're writing for early MG, your word count would be fine. Most agents would look at it, unless they felt your premise was better suited to a younger audience that isn't ready for that long a book.and I was told to chop it.By whom? Consider the source and the reasoning behind the suggestion. I prefer to chop for improvement, not chop for the sake of chopping.
Are you sure you wouldn't be accomplishing both? Trimming sometimes improves pacing quite a bit.

The Crowfield Curse: 319 pages.
reading level 5.8 62K words
The Slippery Map: 288 pages.
reading level 4.5 52K
The Calder Game: 375 pages.
reading level 5.8 53K
The Lightning Thief: also 375 pages.
reading level 4.7 87K, established author
Sir Fartsalot Hunts the Booger: 214 pages.
reading level 5.2 29K
Fablehaven: 351 pages.
reading level 4.8 75K
No Passengers Beyond This Point: 241 pages.
reading level 3.9 50K
Here Be Monsters!: 528 pages.
reading level 4.9 71K

These are all books popular with fluent readers. Kids who enjoy diving into a story. Only Lightning Thief goes beyond 75K. For MG fantasy, you'll have no problem getting agents to look at your work if you're in this range. I've heard agents say they won't look at MG under 30K. So if you're between 30K and 75K, you won't be rejected solely because of your word count.

I've got two Joe Sherlocks and two Encyclopedia Browns over there that come in well within limits.
Those are considered early MG or even chapter books. They are intended for kids who don't yet have the skills or interest to read longer books. If that's the audience you're aiming for, then yes. You need to stay under about 25K.
 

Polenth

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It's an interesting point re' what that age range wants. My 8 yr old son has been reading Roald Dahl and C.S. Lewis books for a while now. He seems quite happy with those.

I don't think I could get the story down to the 180 page mark though... It would need a serious re-write. :(

All you'd need to do is make the font smaller... which is why it's best to talk about word count and not page count. You'll use word count in queries, not page count.

But I don't think your word count sounds like a problem. More to the point is nailing down which age range the book is for, as what you've said is far too broad. People may read it in all those age categories, but it's only going to marketed to one (unless you become famous).
 

MorganMarshall

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I always thought it was word count, not page count. I never heard of a 200 page limit? Mine is 212... maybe I just automatically get close. LOL But yeah, I didn't know there was an actual page number limit. They always ask for word count, in my experience.
 

GigiF

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All you'd need to do is make the font smaller... which is why it's best to talk about word count and not page count. You'll use word count in queries, not page count.

But I don't think your word count sounds like a problem. More to the point is nailing down which age range the book is for, as what you've said is far too broad. People may read it in all those age categories, but it's only going to marketed to one (unless you become famous).

Yes. I think I realise that now.
After thinking a bit more about it, the story is aimed at 8 to 12 yr olds (That's what you guys call MG right?).
My reference to adults was more that 'this could be a book that adults enjoy too'.

I'd put it more in the Roald Dahl children's category than JKR. (Potter would be YA no?)
 

profen4

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My novel is a fantasy action adventure aimed primarily at children between 10 and 15 but I'm also hoping to attract adults of 25+.

I remember reading somewhere that 200 pages was the absolute limit for a childrens book.

I'm at 250 pages and I think that's around about what I'll hit even after completing several drafts.

Any thoughts on this?

The MG novel that I got my agent with is 90K words. It hasn't sold yet or anything, so maybe we're both dreamin' :p
 

GigiF

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It's good to deram though right? If we didn't dream, we'd be dead!

I'm a long way from having something that is in a sellable condition tbh, so there is still a chance that I can go lower. But people have been saying above that my word count (65,000ish) is fine, so...