Do "green" and "free" create a perfect rhyme?

LOG · Nov 16, 2011

They both have the "e" vowel sound in them, but
"green" is said differently because of that "n" on the end. So does the consonant really change things here?
At first I thought they rhymed, but now I'm not sure.
Is it actually the "r" that's rhyming and it's thus a slant-rhyme?

blacbird · Nov 16, 2011

No.

caw

SRHowen · Nov 16, 2011

um, no.

not unless you say geen, or freen

CrastersBabies · Nov 16, 2011

Agree with poster #2.

What you are stating is more of a slant rhyme.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~aarios/formsofverse/furtherreading/page2.html

thothguard51 · Nov 16, 2011

Green and free rhymes every bit as much as nuts and golf balls... You know, they're both small and round. So they must rhyme, right...

mephet · Nov 16, 2011

No, green and free do not rhyme. But for example "free" and "tree" do.

Susan Coffin · Nov 17, 2011

Years ago when I dabbled in poetry, I had a rhyming dictionary. It showed all the perfect rhymes, and then the ones that were close enough to use as a rhyme.

Street and beat rhyme.
time and rhyme rhyme.
go and blow rhyme.

However, green and free are not anywhere close to rhyming.

If I remember correctly, and someone can please correct me if I'm wrong, poetry does not have to have perfect rhymes anyway. In fact, some poetry does not rhyme at all.

Jamesaritchie · Nov 17, 2011

Well, "green" and "free" are nowhere near perfect rhymes, but poetry also use imperfect rhymes, and oblique rhymes. If an oblique rhyme can match "green" with "fiend", and "one" with "thumb". then "green" and "free" are in the same ballpark.

There's also something called an "eye rhyme", which rhymes "Love" and "move", or "cough" with "bough".

I can think of at least four other rhyming types in poetry, so if writing a poem, I can certainly see places where "green" and "free" could be used to break a perfect rhyming scheme, very often a good thing to do at least once, if only to stop the sing song.

But outside of this, no, they don't rhyme, at least in the way most think of rhyming.

Devil Ledbetter · Nov 17, 2011

Is Scarlet Peaches OK? I'm surprised she hasn't yet pointed out that the perfect rhyme for "green" is "peen." :tongue

the cat came back · Nov 17, 2011

Green and free are not rhyme; they are an example of assonance - the repetition of vowel sounds.

Ham and man are examples of near rhyme because the consonants are so close, but your example does not even approach that.

The Lonely One · Nov 17, 2011

Does it matter if they're a perfect rhyme? Unless this is for homework I'd take what the posters said as interesting facts about poetry, store it away in your brain for later use if need be, and then use the words however you originally intended.

the cat came back · Nov 17, 2011

"Rhyme" has an accepted definition.

Those two words do not rhyme, perfectly or imperfectly.

The Lonely One · Nov 17, 2011

the cat came back said:
"Rhyme" has an accepted definition.

Those two words do not rhyme, perfectly or imperfectly.

To me as a reader, not knowing technical information about poetry, those words sound EXTREMELY similar, to the point I would never be able to tell if they're a rhyme or not. I don't get all the posts saying "those aren't even close." How so? Have you all looked at the words? They're nearly identical in sound and both have double ee in the spelling.

I'm not challenging noted definitions but I would ask that you expand on what you consider a rhyme so maybe the poster would have a better idea of what it is that's preventing the rhyme.

The definition I found is:

Correspondence of sound between words or the endings of words, esp. when these are used at the ends of lines of poetry.

They seem to fit that to me, but of course I'm not an expert. I'm just wondering what it is that you think precludes these words from that definition?

the cat came back · Nov 17, 2011

Rhyme is the repetition of the final vowel sounds in two words along with any consonant sounds that follow.

So . . .

Float and quote rhyme.

Green and free do not rhyme. Green and freen rhyme but freen is not a word.

The Lonely One · Nov 17, 2011

the cat came back said:
Rhyme is the repetition of the final vowel sounds in two words along with any consonant sounds that follow.

So . . .

Float and quote rhyme.

Green and free do not rhyme. Green and freen rhyme but freen is not a word.

I see what you're saying, regarding the use of consonant at the word's end. These words are not perfect or imperfect rhyme, then. That's all fine and good.

But in a more general sense, isn't assonance sometimes referred to as a slant rhyme? Is slant rhyme not accepted as a type of rhyme?

What I find odd is the general idea here that the two words aren't even close to the idea of what a rhyme is when in fact their vowel structure makes them extremely close in overall intonation. Even further, if you added an "n" to free it wouldn't alter the vowel pronunciation a hair. As poems are often about spoken sound (intonation of voice), would it matter? I mean, I don't see why the words couldn't be used in a rhyming or lyrical poem.

the cat came back · Nov 17, 2011

I've never heard of slant rhyme, but if it does equal assonance why not call it that?

That said, I don't see why assonance could not be used in place of rhyme as long as the effect is intentional as opposed to sloppy or failure to find a rhyme - it would ring false in a traditional sonnet, for instance, where proper rhymes are being used.

The Lonely One · Nov 17, 2011

Shadow_Ferret said:
Sure, they both have ee in them, but that's it. I'm sure some Rock singer could squeal them in such a way that they'd sound like they rhymed, but really, they don't. The n in green makes them sound differently.

Do feet and bean sound the same to you? They both have an ee in them.

I don't see adding the "n" as altering the phonetic vowel sound. For instance take off the "n." Gree. Green. They sound identical up until the "n." At least to me they do. Bean has an "a" that slightly changes the vowel sound. Of course it's hard to argue this when I have no background in phonetics but to my untrained ear, as a listener of poetry, I couldn't tell the difference if green and free were a rhyme or not. And I wouldn't care. The poem itself would carry me if the lines were good and the exactness of the rhyme wouldn't mean anything.

How about month and moth? They both have a aw in them.

Again there's a slight change in the vowel sound. Moth has more of an actual "o" or rather as you say "aw" sound whereas month sounds more like "munth" due to the "n."

Maybe someone could point to the phonetic differences of the vowels in the two example words to prove there is a change in pronunciation? Because I don't hear it.

EDIT: no, Shadow Ferret, I don't mind your post. I don't mind debate. And I hope I don't come off as a jerk. Just a confused and frustrated writer/reader

What I'm saying is of course definitions aside; more of a practical application conversation.

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 17, 2011

Yeah, now that I've been verbalizing month and moth, that example doesn't work.

I still think feet and bean have the same ee sound. At least to my midwestern accent they do. (Which is different from been, which sounds like bin to me.)

The Lonely One · Nov 17, 2011

I'm starting to feel like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing so I'm gonna cut myself off, since the initial question was pretty cut and dry and I've fallen off the wagon here.

And accent probably does have something to do with it. I feel like when I say bean I've got a tendency to pronounce the "a" slightly.

But I get what you're saying. And I get that it doesn't fit into the technical rhyme definition. Really it was asked/answered by blacbird post one and expounded upon a few posts down.

Soooo :flag:

You know minus the underwear.

CrastersBabies · Nov 17, 2011

In poetry there are different kinds of rhymes (as pointed out), so we won't rehash that.

Slant/imperfect rhymes are actually far more popular in modern poetry. I tell my students to steer clear of perfect rhyming as it often comes across as too sing-songy (at least with new poetry students).

It's one of the toughest challenges I face when teaching poetry is breaking students out of the rhyme game, telling them to muss up their rhymes, to use "in rhymes" instead of "end rhymes," etc.

Another good link on rhyming.

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/types-of-rhyme/

Part of a Billy Collins poem:

The neighbors’ dog will not stop barking.
He is barking the same high, rhythmic bark
that he barks every time they leave the house.
They must switch him on on their way out.

I'd consider this an AABB rhyme scheme.

the cat came back · Nov 17, 2011

That's all (questionable) style and has no bearing on the original question.

LOG · Nov 17, 2011

Thanks for all of the input everyone.

Jamesaritchie · Nov 18, 2011

the cat came back said:
"Rhyme" has an accepted definition.

Those two words do not rhyme, perfectly or imperfectly.

There are many accepted forms of rhyming, and I'd have no problem at all rhyming these two words in a poem.

CrastersBabies · Nov 18, 2011

When you are speaking of writing poetry, then I'd argue that yes, it technically does fall into the definition of "rhyming."

Outside the poetry world, maybe not.

the cat came back · Nov 18, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
There are many accepted forms of rhyming, and I'd have no problem at all rhyming these two words in a poem.

You could certainly use them at the ends of lines for an effect similar to rhyme - Alanis does it constantly - but those two words simply do not rhyme, no matter how badly anyone wants them to.

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