what's the beef against exclamation points?

Siri Kirpal said:

Sat Nam (literally “Truth Name”—a Sikh greeting)


But on this site, when people talk about good writing, they often talk about eschewing adverbs, exclamation point and any tagline other than “said.”

No exclamation points, adverbs, interesting taglines? “Like hell,” she said. (And she is not prone to swearing.)

Your Job:
1: Please explain to me: what exactly is the problem with exclamation points? WHY is it bad writing? It isn't using them that constitutes bad writing, it's overuse. Makes your character read like a 12 year old on a sugar rush. And they are usually not needed anyway. Mood should come through the actions and dialogue. I think the only time EPs are needed is to show extreme emotion like surprise or fear.
2: I suspect you’re all spouting received wisdom. So please tell me when and where and from whom you heard this. I learnt it from reading. I knew it was bad idea before I got here.

3: And while you’re at it, no one has ever explained to my satisfaction WHY taglines other than “said” are anathema to good writing. “Why?” she asked. That sounds a whole lot more logical than “Why?” she said. Hmmm.... you're being a little disengenous here. No one has said, in my experience, not to use asked. But why do you need a tag at all? The punctuation shows it is a question.

Click to expand...

Let me give you an example of tags other than said:

"Pass me the sugar, please" she said.

"Get it yourself" he growled.

"That's not very nice," she pouted.

"Sorry" he apologised.

"That's all right" she smiled.

Do you see the point? None of those tags should be needed because the reader should get the character actions from the dialogue. For me, a tag is only needed to let the reader know who is talking, not how.

I agree with Mirandashell

I don't use !!!! at all. Use the effect of speech and action to convey what you need to.
If you need to the character to scream, tell the reader he did.

Personally, I think exclamation points are okay if used sparingly or if they fit the character. Too many and the writing may come across as overly emotional.

I have a friend who abuses exclamation marks, using two or three at the end of sentences. (This is when he posts on Facebook advertising for his company.) One time, I told him I was making a citizen's arrest for overusing/abusing punctuation. He laughed it off. I wasn't kidding.

Siri Kirpal said:

Sat Nam (literally “Truth Name”—a Sikh greeting)

In the past month or so, I’ve been noticing a lot of posts attacking the use of exclamation points. Prior to this, I’d never heard or read any such thing. I’m bothered. where were you reading before? I wouldn't expect to see comments on it in Playboy, but I would in something like The First Five Pages. So where you started has relevance--this is a site of folks aiming for publication, which certainly doesn't invalidate dissent, but if you were referring to things not targeted at commercial writing, well, I have seen very little advice on how to clean my AR on this site, also....mostly because I was not at the right site for that sort of information.

Backstory: Back 45 years ago, I was an intellectual idiot. Wrote poetry everyone said they admired, and no one—including me—could understand. Wrote prose that teachers liked but was guaranteed to puzzle anyone without a collegiate degree. Until I decided to become a human being. you realize you are heading towards condescending here, correct? Allow me to reply, if I can get my massive cloven hoof to make the typekeyses work.... And that entailed—among many other things—using exclamation points.

What Constitutes Good Writing: I did learn early on that good writing includes:
a) varying sentence structure (except where repetition serves as an emphasis),
b) varying the words that start sentences (ditto), and
c) linking thoughts and words between sentences and paragraphs.

I’ve since added d) avoiding confusion
e) and avoiding passive construction where possible.

But on this site, when people talk about good writing, they often talk about eschewing adverbs, exclamation point and any tagline other than “said.”

No exclamation points, adverbs, interesting taglines? “Like hell,” she said. (And she is not prone to swearing.)

Your Job:
1: Please explain to me: what exactly is the problem with exclamation points? WHY is it bad writing? in and of itself, it isn't. The problem is, as Stephen King described adverbs, they tend to pop up like weeds--you use a few, because they are an easy way to convey something, and if you aren't careful they become a crutch and your work is littered with them. likewise, if you're fond of the exclamation point, there is no guarantee, but more often than not, it is in there way more than it needs to be. And that gets noticeable very quickly.
2: I suspect you’re all spouting received wisdom. So please tell me when and where and from whom you heard this. "received"? you realize the implication you are making is we're basically dolts regurgitating, correct? On the plus side, we're past the "kinda condescending" stage here, I guess.... Most of this IS, in fact, posted elsewhere, but more because it is a fairly general set of guidelines than because we all bought the same three books....and how much you believe in them seems to depend on how literally or absolutely you take them, coupled with (or opposed against) your desire to shrug them off simply because you'd rather do your own thing. That said, the "rules" come from everywhere from Elements of Style to essays by various writers to books like On Writing, Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, and The First Five Pages.

Now, for me, I can say "yes, I have read that someplace," but you seem to want to equate that with me being one more sheep in the crowd--no. Read something where the writer rides adverbial tags like Sea Biscuit, or uses exclamation points like potato chips....it distracts. Your ONLY absolute rule as a writer (and some may quibble this even) is to tell the story in a way that does not yank the reader out of it repeatedly and force them to willfully re-insert themselves....or walk away. Lotsa lotsa exclamation points? ymmv, for me they are distracting as shit. Don't buy it? Fine--find Fireflies by Piers Anthony and read it. At the end, you will agree with me, or you just won't. But I hated them, they made the book seem silly and campy where it was supposed to feel sinister, and gave the overall impression that Piers was experimenting with meth while writing, or perhaps had the little squirrel from Over the Hedge ghost-write that one for him. So that I found on my own, it wasn't the product of reading someone else's edicts and then vomiting them back out.

3: And while you’re at it, no one has ever explained to my satisfaction WHY taglines other than “said” are anathema to good writing. “Why?” she asked. That sounds a whole lot more logical than “Why?” she said. moderation, again. The issue isn't so much with "she asked" showing up on occasion, it is when every single passage is grated, hissed, ejaculated, whined, moaned, etc.....it gets to be lazy writing, and worse yet, it gets to be distracting writing.
Ground Rules:
1. For this thread only, please do not use LOL, because I can’t tell me whether you’re laughing in embarrassment, derision...or if you’re rolling on the ground.
2. You may use illustrations with and without exclamation points, but please avoid acronyms that imply an exclamation, such as WTF (which you wouldn’t use it in my physical presence, unless your manners are worse than the criminals I used to teach clearly you would be fucking surprised....my language may not be what you consider appropriate, but I speak this way with my pastor, thank you. And it may shock you, because you seem to have a fairly absolutist view of right and wrong, but we are friends.) and OMG. Again, that’s for this thread only.

Please note that I have not used one exclamation point in this rant. Not even my hallmark greeting.nor in your snide little passive-aggressive baiting...gold star for you (!!!)

Your turn. Thanks and God bless.

Blessings,
Siri Kirpal

Click to expand...

help any?


Edit: you've taken quite a bit of heat in this thread for your tone; before you rationalize it as "haterz gotta hate" or something similarly profound, you may want to re-read and consider. If you intend to make a buck off written communication, it should trouble you at least a smidge the level of anger you've managed to incite with your remarks...unless that was the original intent

Siri Kirpal said:

Sat Nam (literally “Truth Name”—a Sikh greeting)

In the past month or so, I’ve been noticing a lot of posts attacking the use of exclamation points. Prior to this, I’d never heard or read any such thing. I’m bothered.

As with every other "rule", the one regarding exclamation marks is not absolute. You can use them, but to use them to excess is inadvisable).
[...]

Your Job:
1: Please explain to me: what exactly is the problem with exclamation points? WHY is it bad writing?Exclamation marks are the written equivalent of jazz hands, or of cracking a joke then poking somebody in the ribs shouting "Get it? Do you get it?!" Sometimes the situation can be enhanced by it, much of the time it can't and ends up detracting
2: I suspect you’re all spouting received wisdom. So please tell me when and where and from whom you heard this. I had never heard it until I came to this board. However, hearing it did not alter my writing.
3: And while you’re at it, no one has ever explained to my satisfaction WHY taglines other than “said” are anathema to good writing. “Why?” she asked. That sounds a whole lot more logical than “Why?” she said. '"Why?" she asked' would be frowned upon because it is tautologous (it's saying the same thing twice, like having a cold ice-cube). However, it's acceptable use even if it isn't grammatically perfect. The reason we have a "taglines other than said" rule is because when you use to many, it becomes a distraction to the writing (as Miranda's explanation shows well). Good writing is invisible.
Ground Rules:
1. For this thread only, please do not use LOL, because I can’t tell me whether you’re laughing in embarrassment, derision...or if you’re rolling on the ground. Rule one of the boards is "respect your fellow writer". Anybody laughing in derision is going to get a telling off sharpish.
2. You may use illustrations with and without exclamation points, but please avoid acronyms that imply an exclamation, such as WTF (which you wouldn’t use it in my physical presence, unless your manners are worse than the criminals I used to teach) and OMG. Again, that’s for this thread only. At the risk of sounding like a jerk, I would have to say if you are unhappy with the language habitually used on the board, you are free to find somewhere whose language is better suited to your tastes. Whether you intended this or not, this paragraph sounds rude and condescending. Don't begin a conversation specifying how we may or may not conduct it. In any case, plenty of criminals have quite lovely manners. Look at Jeffrey Archer. I bet he knows to stand when a Lady comes into the room.

Please note that I have not used one exclamation point in this rant. Not even my hallmark greeting.

Your turn. Thanks and God bless.

Blessings,
Siri Kirpal

Click to expand...

.

Siri Kirpal said:

Your Job:
1: Please explain to me: what exactly is the problem with exclamation points? WHY is it bad writing?
2: I suspect you’re all spouting received wisdom. So please tell me when and where and from whom you heard this.
3: And while you’re at it, no one has ever explained to my satisfaction WHY taglines other than “said” are anathema to good writing. “Why?” she asked. That sounds a whole lot more logical than “Why?” she said.
Ground Rules:
1. For this thread only, please do not use LOL, because I can’t tell me whether you’re laughing in embarrassment, derision...or if you’re rolling on the ground.
2. You may use illustrations with and without exclamation points, but please avoid acronyms that imply an exclamation, such as WTF (which you wouldn’t use it in my physical presence, unless your manners are worse than the criminals I used to teach) and OMG. Again, that’s for this thread only.

Click to expand...

1. There aren't any 'rules' in writing. Everything expresses something; the only failure mode is failing to express what you meant. However, I'd think of exclamation marks like an economist - you don't want to devalue them with overuse. You use them for emphasis, and the more sparingly you use them, the more emphatic they are.

2. If that isn't meant to be rather bumptious and rude, I think this is a good example of you failing to express yourself, as per my response to (1) above.

3. Taglines other than said are fine, of course. They exist, and mean stuff. Again: there aren't any 'rules', unless you count rules of thumb. But lots of people get taught a bad one at school, which is that you want to use a lot of different words, because repetition is somehow inherently bad. You get encouraged to vary your dialogue tags, and it all ends up with manuscripts on my desk which are pathologically terrified of the word 'said' and proceed much like Mirandashell's example above.

I mean, quite beside the fact that you end up pointlessly conveying every meaning twice ("Well, I don't think so!" he argued) it rapidly becomes absurd when you run out of tags and your characters spend whole pages 'spluttering', 'frothing' and 'ejaculating.'

It's futile, I think, to try to lay down inviolable rules of writing. There is a lot of good advice but it's all opinion - it's what has been observed to work. The important thing is not have you followed that advice, but are you capable of telling what works and what doesn't? At that point you probably don't need to worry about rules at all.

If you're interested in some rules that I would get behind, here's Mark Twain.

Siri Kirpal said:

Your Job:
1: Please explain to me: what exactly is the problem with exclamation points? WHY is it bad writing?

Click to expand...

Exclamation points are not bad writing per se. However, frequent use of them is common in bad writing. When they're in dialogue, they indicate the speaker is exclaiming, which in text will read as yelling. Scenes with a lot of yelling are typically melodramatic and overwrought. Try watching iCarly or Victorious on the Disney channel sometimes. It will give you a good picture of why characters all constantly exclaiming at each other is exhausting, annoying and makes for lousy storytelling.

Likewise, when exclamation points are in the narrative, it is like being yelled at by the writer or narrator. Not pleasant.

Siri Kirpal said:

2: I suspect you’re all spouting received wisdom. So please tell me when and where and from whom you heard this.

Click to expand...

This is not a question. It's a condescending statement that indicates you've no respect for our opinions. If this is the case, why even ask?

I'll answer for the benefit of those whose minds aren't already sealed shut with marine epoxy and carbon fiber: I've observed that I don't enjoy reading something that is loaded with exclamation points. It's like being screamed at. I don't enjoy being screamed at. I don't enjoy dialogue where all the characters do is shriek their lines. It makes me want to throttle them, and tell them to grow up, and talk like civilized people.

Come to think of it I don't enjoy being condescended to, either.

Siri Kirpal said:

3: And while you’re at it, no one has ever explained to my satisfaction WHY taglines other than “said” are anathema to good writing. “Why?” she asked. That sounds a whole lot more logical than “Why?” she said.

Click to expand...

Asked is considered as acceptable as said. It's the degree to which a tag stands out and says "look at me, here's how this was said" that's a problem. Asked doesn't do that. Growled, grumbled, tittered and ejaculated do.

The problem is taglines other than said tell rather than show how something was said. They're used to prop up weak dialogue, or in place of action that would illuminate how something was said. They're used when the writer doesn't trust the reader to figure out how something was said by the indicators in the dialogue or action. They condescend to the reader. They say "You're probably too boneheaded to get this, so let me tell you how this was said."

However, they are considered more acceptable in middle grade fiction, as younger readers may not be experienced enough to pick up verbal tone, etc. from dialogue and action.

Siri Kirpal said:

Ground Rules:
1. For this thread only, please do not use LOL, because I can’t tell me whether you’re laughing in embarrassment, derision...or if you’re rolling on the ground.
2. You may use illustrations with and without exclamation points, but please avoid acronyms that imply an exclamation, such as WTF (which you wouldn’t use it in my physical presence, unless your manners are worse than the criminals I used to teach) and OMG. Again, that’s for this thread only.

Click to expand...

This too is condescending. How dare you tell us "how" we can post in a thread? At AW, starting a thread does not mean one owns the thread or has any say in how others may post within it. If you can't bear to have your delicate eyes assaulted with these things, maybe you should find a place on the internet where your hothouse-flower sensibilities will be better accommodated.

And if someone posts offensively, you can report the post to a mod.

You seem to have a firm opinion that saidisms are dandy and exclamation points mean great writing, so why not just put a lot of saidisms and exclaimation points in your novel? That way, the rest of us will have a little less competition when it comes to getting published.

Siri Kirpal said:

Please note that I have not used one exclamation point in this rant. Not even my hallmark greeting.

Click to expand...

Hallmark greeting? How trying.

mirandashell said:

Do you see the point? None of those tags should be needed because the reader should get the character actions from the dialogue. For me, a tag is only needed to let the reader know who is talking, not how.

Click to expand...

Not always. The same words can convey different meanings.

'Take your clothes off,' said the nurse.

'Take your clothes off,' she purred.

'Take your clothes off,' she snarled.

'Take your clothes off.' She giggled, checking the heat of the branding iron.

EDIT: I use exclamation marks (in moderation), and I'm proud of it!!!

dangerousbill said:

Not always. The same words can convey different meanings.

'Take your clothes off,' said the nurse.

'Take your clothes off,' she purred.

'Take your clothes off,' she snarled.

'Take your clothes off.' She giggled, checking the heat of the branding iron.

EDIT: I use exclamation marks (in moderation), and I'm proud of it!!!

Click to expand...

you are clearly a whore.

note you yourself said "in moderation". And I will repeat myself, repeatedly, over and over, in saying again, used sparingly (or in moderation) they are fine....but over-used, they start to stick out like tiny neon signs in books.

dangerousbill said:

'Take your clothes off.' She giggled, checking the heat of the branding iron.

EDIT: I use exclamation marks (in moderation), and I'm proud of it!!!

Click to expand...

I laughed and then I was confused.

This should be a writing prompt!

Point, no more then one !!!!@#!#!!!!

If you think we're all too stupid to understand your salutation, I can't imagine why you think we're bright enough to answer your questions. So I'm not sure why you posted in the first place other than to assert your self importance.

Rule of thumb: Don't condescend to people you hope will help you, no matter the situation.

What you're missing is the nuance of advice. Everyone has a different take on any subject, based both on advice they have received and personal experience.

If one person says "Never use exclamation points" someone else will say "I use them all the time and love them." What most people view as proper usage (and if you're looking to publish you're looking for something to please a large group of people) probably lies somewhere in between.

I'd expect someone who thinks so highly of their own intellect to be able to figure this out for themselves.

If you don't want a pissy answer, don't ask a pissy question.

If you're going to use non-said dialogue tags, use them in moderation and make sure they make sense.

Please don't do such things as:

"Yes," she sneezed.
"Oh, Poop," he hissed.
"Look out, people there's a giant rock coming at you," he choked.

I am fond of a well placed exclamation mark but I don't want them all over the place. Ditto for adverbs. I'm pretty relaxed about those.

I am much more hardline about taglines. I only use them when more than two people are having a conversation (and even then sparingly) or when I absolutely must make it clear who is speaking (which happens, of course it does).

I try to give my characters fairly distinct voices (or distinct things to say) so that I don't have to use taglines. It's only because I believe dialogue flows better and is more natural sounding without them. I've nothing against other people using them though.

amergina said:

"Oh, Poop," he hissed.

Click to expand...

OMFG this made me LOL IRL!

Siri Kirpal said:

2: I suspect you’re all spouting received wisdom.

Siri Kirpal

Click to expand...

This has just hit all the wrong buttons, my friend. Worse thing being, language and tone says it's be written to do just that: provoke a response. For what it's worth, here's mine:
jumping through hoops for your entertainment isn't a line of kink I'm into.

All respect to the guys above and below who have the patience to answer this one. I don't.

Torgo said:

it rapidly becomes absurd when you run out of tags and your characters spend whole pages 'spluttering', 'frothing' and 'ejaculating.'

Click to expand...

I didn't think you edited erotica? (where frothing and ejaculating is somewhat more acceptable. But not generally in speech.)


Sometimes, you may need a tag such as purred. The tag police won't hunt you down and kill you. But if you use them more than sparingly, like the exclamation mark, it gets very old, very fast.

Thus:

'What!?!!! Like this!' she discombobulated. 'I sound like I'm on helium!!!'

'Didn't I tell you?' he trilled. 'It's cyanide gas! Muahahahaaha!'

Fallen said:

This has just hit all the wrong buttons, my friend. Worse thing being, language and tone says it's be written to do just that: provoke a response. For what it's worth, here's mine:
jumping through hoops for your entertainment isn't a line of kink I'm into.

All respect to the guys above and below who have the patience to answer this one. I don't.

Click to expand...

Isn't it interesting that "I suspect you're all spouting received wisdom" doesn't need an exclamation point or a saidism tag to scream condescension? Siri is perhaps perfectly capable of writing dialogue that can stand on its own, yet either lacks (A.) the confidence to let it, or (B.) the belief her readers are smart enough to get it.

B. Gets my vote.

Siri Kirpal said:

My point in asking you not to use OMG and WTF is not the delicacy of my sentiments, but...if you're going to tell me not to use exclamation points, please don't use a phrase that implies one.
Siri Kirpal

Click to expand...

I don't believe anyone told you not to use an exclamation point in the forum, and I doubt many of us, unless writing text-speak for a passage, are putting any "wtf" or "omg" in our manuscript....

WTF doesn't always have an exclamation mark. It can be 'WTF?' or 'ah WTF.' if said in a resigned tone.

Devil Ledbetter said:

OMFG this made me LOL IRL!

Click to expand...

I see what you did there.

mirandashell said:

WTF doesn't always have an exclamation mark. It can be 'WTF?' or 'ah WTF.' if said in a resigned tone.

Click to expand...

Technically it's a question, since it begins with "what."

Siri Kirpal said:

I am published...recently. I'd never heard this "rule" before.

Click to expand...

The guidelines (fair enough to not call them rules) for non-fiction, self published books and print on demand books are quite different from the guidelines for fiction. I don't know where you were published or what kind of book it is, but the bar for publication varies.

If you can write and sell books loaded with exclamation points, more power to you. Personally, I find exclamations even more irritating in non-fiction. It comes off like the author is overly excitable about her subject, or as though she thinks every other sentence she writes is some great revelation that needs to be exclaimed. Or like she thinks her readers are too stupid to know when something is exciting or interesting.

Siri Kirpal said:

I've been accused of condescension before. My point in asking you not to use OMG and WTF is not the delicacy of my sentiments, but...if you're going to tell me not to use exclamation points, please don't use a phrase that implies one. But condescension is something for me to work on, of course.

Click to expand...

No one told you what to use or what not to use. You heard or read somewhere the guideline about overuse of exclamation points. That you may have taken it personally as a directive about your writing does not then give you the right to condescend to others by telling them how to post.

Siri Kirpal said:

NO, I don't "own" this thread. My understanding of the way this site works, though, it that the OP gets to set some guidelines. My mistake.

Click to expand...

There is a difference between guidelines and ground rules. In any case, set all the guidelines you like. Just don't be surprised when we object to being condescended to and refuse to follow them.

As far as I know, AW has only one ground rule: Respect Your Fellow Writer. Your OP failed to do that, IMO.

Devil Ledbetter said:

Technically it's a question, since it begins with "what."

Click to expand...

Oh well, if you're gonna get technical on my ass......

mirandashell said:

Oh well, if you're gonna get technical on my ass......

Click to expand...

I can't help myself, I'm just pedantic.