Frank Miller unloads on the Occupy Movement and youth in general

mario_c · Nov 13, 2011

Hey. Don't know if this is more appropriate for P&CE or Games or what...mods, your call, please.
Frank Miller on Occupy Wall Street
Yes, I looked around that site to make sure it was THAT Frank Miller, and that it was not one of those stupid "Bad American" rants made up by angry yet cowardly old men and attributed to celebrities online. He is in clear ownership of this outburst. ETA And no comment via Twitter, either.
What made me laugh (grimly, I must say) is the "Lords Of Warcraft" comments. This will go down well with all the comics fans who bought his graphic novels and attended his movies and convention appearances, and made him rich and famous. Not to mention the game and comics creators who looked up to him as a hero. Forget the politics - it sucks being spit on by someone you respect.

Rob Lefebvre · Nov 13, 2011

For what ever reason I got sucked into it and posted a whole bunch of my thoughts on that board.

All I can say: It is easy to talk shit when you have money.

Miss Plum · Nov 13, 2011

mario_c said:
What made me laugh (grimly, I must say) is the "Lords Of Warcraft" comments. This will go down well with all the comics fans who bought his graphic novels and attended his movies and convention appearances, and made him rich and famous. Not to mention the game and comics creators who looked up to him as a hero. Forget the politics - it sucks being spit on by someone you respect.

Do WoW gamers respect Frank Miller? Do all his fans agree with OWS?

It's definitely not the best anti-OWS piece I've read, but I think he's right about it.

mario_c · Nov 13, 2011

My impression is that gamers are part of the Nerd Culture, a wide and diverse, but yet so interwoven city stretching from Comic-Con to MMORPG caves to Fangoria/Chiller conventions and back again. Maybe some gamers hate comics/graphic novels, but probably a lot more don't. Surely the man who was so instrumental in the Dark Knight phase of the Batman franchise has a lot of fans who play WOW and Lords Of War - certainly a lot of game designers, programmers and fans are Dark Knight fans, if not Sin City or 300 or the other amazing works he did.
But whatever side of the fence the individual is on here, everyone who identifies themselves as a nerd or fangirl/boy is sick of being stereotyped as "losers" living in "your mommas’ basements". Frank Miller was happy to get very rich and popular off these "losers" and now is showing some real disrespect for them here.

I am not a gamer, really, but I loved his work (except for The Spirit - that stunk

). I shook it off as so much "Get off my lawn" fist-shaking, but at some level, the contempt he has for young people is just sad. Like the last paragraph about "Maybe our military could whip some of you into shape". Because, Frank, that's what you did - oh wait, you didn't? And to say that on Veteran's Day, no less - talk about a "shmuck".

They should take Penn Jillette's advice. I always do.

(His last lines in the long rant, to be clear.)

And just one more ETA...I know the very phrase "Get a life" was created just for Star Trek fans by their idol, William Shatner. But he said that in the spirit of good natured ribbing. Frank's comments are not good natured at all, and definitely not intended to be humorous except in the meanest spirit possible.

Miss Plum · Nov 13, 2011

mario_c said:
My impression is that gamers are part of the Nerd Culture, a wide and diverse, but yet so interwoven city stretching from Comic-Con to MMORPG caves to Fangoria/Chiller conventions and back again. Maybe some gamers hate comics/graphic novels, but probably a lot more don't. Surely the man who was so instrumental in the Dark Knight phase of the Batman franchise has a lot of fans who play WOW and Lords Of War - certainly a lot of game designers, programmers and fans are Dark Knight fans, if not Sin City or 300 or the other amazing works he did.
But whatever side of the fence the individual is on here, everyone who identifies themselves as a nerd or fangirl/boy is sick of being stereotyped as "losers" living in "your mommas’ basements". Frank Miller was happy to get very rich and popular off these "losers" and now is showing some real disrespect for them here.

I am not a gamer, really, but I loved his work (except for The Spirit - that stunk ). I shook it off as so much "Get off my lawn" fist-shaking, but at some level, the contempt he has for young people is just sad. Like the last paragraph about "Maybe our military could whip some of you into shape". Because, Frank, that's what you did - oh wait, you didn't? And to say that on Veteran's Day, no less - talk about a "shmuck".

They should take Penn Jillette's advice. I always do. (His last lines in the long rant, to be clear.)

And just one more ETA...I know the very phrase "Get a life" was created just for Star Trek fans by their idol, William Shatner. But he said that in the spirit of good natured ribbing. Frank's comments are not good natured at all, and definitely not intended to be humorous except in the meanest spirit possible.

But isn't he addressing people whose interests converge on both OWS and games/comics? "You who read me and are hanging at OWS or sympathizing with them, you're so wrong about this particular thing that it's stupid and immoral and it says something about your character and your intellect overall. You need to change your way of thinking and maybe even your life."

That's the kind of conflict I totally dig in literature, and I'd love to see a comic book character shout it from a rooftop. No one ever paid good money to read a story or see a movie called "The Village of the Happy, Nice People."

Why is it that comic and game fans relish guts getting ripped out and buildings collapsing, but they can't take Frank Miller's verbal sticks and stones?

mario_c · Nov 13, 2011

You're comparing apples and oranges. It's one thing to read a story and feel a protagonist's pain (or an antagonist's just desserts), because it's a story. It's another thing to be a fan of a writer or filmmaker or artist who just called you a "loser" and a treasonous girly-man and all that.
And I want to be clear, he can think they're wrong as much as he wants - that's not what I'm arguing about. I'm arguing about him dismissing his fans as "losers".

But there I go, expecting someone I for one paid money to see to not tell me to fuck off. Apparently that's unreasonable. Apparently I'm soft and my character is lacking because I don't think that's OK.

Axler · Nov 15, 2011

Maybe I ought to write a comic or graphic novel about why so many closeted gay men are drawn to Fascist points of view.

Most of Miller's work since The Dark Knight Returns sheds so much fake chest hair, they ought to package little whisk brooms and dust pans with it.

Award winning SF author David Brin exposes then kicks Miller's ass here:

http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2011/11/move-over-frank-miller-or-why-occupy.html

mario_c · Nov 15, 2011

That's an interesting article. Damn, Greco-Roman history is cool!
I've always seen this nation's rivalry with Europe as a spiritual reverb of the Athens/Sparta rivalry of history. Guess who's Sparta? *sorry, a little off my own topic here...*

fritzthefox · Nov 16, 2011

Thanks for the link to the David Brin essay, Axler. I needed that. I had just been reading Miller's OWS rant, and unwisely decided to read the comments section to see how his fans were reacting to such a naked political diatribe.

Less than five minutes of skimming comments on his blog had me wanting to claw my eyes out and hide in a cave. His fans are a rather... ahem...passionate bunch. Normally you have to visit Youtube to enjoy such delightfully articulate comments.

The more reasoned tone of Mr. Brin's article (and his fans) helped reassure me that there are still a few people with a functioning forebrain left in this country.

Axler · Nov 16, 2011

Well, the day I think a middle-aged, self-indulgent, egomaniacal comic book guy who has never known a day of real want in his life actually has a valid opinion about much of anything outside of comics is the day I think Herman Cain is truly statesman like.

Nein.
Nein.
Nein.

Lovely Decadence · Nov 16, 2011

Isn't Frank Miller always complaining about something? This screams of business of usual. In other news the sky is blue...

mario_c · Nov 16, 2011

I guess it's not a surprise - the dark and dreary world a noir writer has to create can seep into her/his mentality after awhile. I can relate to that.
At least he isn't as big a diva as Alan Moore (but who is?). Or as big an egomaniacal hack as Charlie "Dude, I already got your money" Sheen. I'll still see Sin City 2 but I'll hate myself for it.

nighttimer · Nov 16, 2011

Frank Miller is responsible for great stuff like his initial run on Daredevil, his terrific return with Born Again, The Dark Knight Returns, Hard Boiled with Geoff Darrow's jaw-dropping art and Batman: Year One.

Frank Miller is also responsible for The Dark Knight 2, Batman vs. Spawn, Holy Terror (which was supposed to be Batman vs. Al Qaeda before DC sobered up), the ungodly mess that was The Spirit and of course this.

Somewhere Frank Miller became this right-wing crank, sexist, misanthrope whose art became increasingly primal, raw and crude and his writing a bad mash-up of Raymond Chandler and Mickey Spillane.

Who really gives a good goddamn what Frank Miller says about anything? :e2tomato:

Axler · Nov 17, 2011

nighttimer said:
Who really gives a good goddamn what Frank Miller says about anything?

I don't give a good goddman about what most comics folks say about anything.

Unlike Miller, most comic creators haven't bought into their own PR and have the insight to realize the careers they've chosen and the lives they live have not equipped them to be political pundits.

And that includes Will Eisner, who Miller professes to idolize...but in actuality, Will would have been so appalled by that crazy rant he would have put as much distance between himself and Miller as he could.

I still remember what my wife Melissa (the author of the best-selling The Everything Guide to Ghost-Hunting) murmured as the credits for Frank Miller's The Spirit scrolled upward:

"Will is rolling in his grave."

Ria13 · Nov 17, 2011

Axler said:
Maybe I ought to write a comic or graphic novel about why so many closeted gay men are drawn to Fascist points of view.

this comes too far to my liking to, "ha! ha! you're gay!" I don't believe in using homosexuality as an insult. modifying that with "closeted" doesn't make it any better.

I also dislike making conjectures as to the sexuality of people you don't know.

Axler · Nov 17, 2011

That's good to know.

Good thing in this case I wasn't putting forth a conjecture about someone I don't know.

It's also a good thing that what you dislike or what you believe is a matter of great indifference to me.

Ria13 · Nov 17, 2011

Axler said:
Good thing in this case I wasn't putting forth a conjecture about someone I don't know.

genuine question: do you actually know Frank Miller, then?

It's also a good thing that what you dislike or what you believe is a matter of great indifference to me.

sure. well, not, I hoped, to others.

Ria13 · Nov 17, 2011

mario_c said:
And just one more ETA...I know the very phrase "Get a life" was created just for Star Trek fans by their idol, William Shatner. But he said that in the spirit of good natured ribbing.

in fact, a SNL writer wrote those words to put it into Shatner's mouth. (admittedly, Shatner agreed to doing that sketch...)

fritzthefox · Nov 17, 2011

I never forgave Shatner for that.

Axler · Nov 17, 2011

Ria13 said:
genuine question: do you actually know Frank Miller, then?

Genuine answer: Immaterial.

Ria13 · Nov 18, 2011

I don't think you would like strangers making unsubstantiated speculations as to your sexual orientation on the internet, whatever your political views.

Torgo · Nov 18, 2011

Axler said:
Maybe I ought to write a comic or graphic novel about why so many closeted gay men are drawn to Fascist points of view.

Miller's GIVE ME LIBERTY features an all-gay neo-Nazi enclave called the Aryan Thrust. That was back when he was actually capable of telling the difference between his own satire and real life.

Axler · Nov 18, 2011

Ria13 said:
I don't think you would like strangers making unsubstantiated speculations as to your sexual orientation on the internet, whatever your political views.

As far as I know, you've never posted in this forum before.

And even if you had, that doesn't give you the right to make unsubstianted assumptions in order to chastise people whose backgrounds and professional contacts you know nothing about.

I think if you did a little skimming through the links at the bottom of this post, you might get an idea that it's conceivable I know a little more about the subject of this discussion than you.

And even if you decide I don't, that doesn't give you the right to trot in on a self-righteous high horse.

Amadan · Nov 18, 2011

fritzthefox said:
I never forgave Shatner for that.

Are you kidding? That was Shatner's best role ever!

Ria13 · Nov 18, 2011

Torgo said:
Miller's GIVE ME LIBERTY features an all-gay neo-Nazi enclave called the Aryan Thrust. That was back when he was actually capable of telling the difference between his own satire and real life.

yeah, I find it very difficult to reconcile this Frank Miller with the old one. but then human beings have many facets. and after all, I don't know him.

Frank Miller unloads on the Occupy Movement and youth in general

mario_c

Your thoughts are not real...

Rob Lefebvre

Ass kicker

Miss Plum

mario_c

Your thoughts are not real...

Miss Plum

mario_c

Your thoughts are not real...

Axler

mario_c

Your thoughts are not real...

fritzthefox

Axler

Lovely Decadence

mario_c

Your thoughts are not real...

nighttimer

Am I Evil? Yes, I Am!

Axler

Ria13

Axler

Ria13

Ria13

fritzthefox

Axler

Ria13

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

Axler

Amadan

Ria13