Lost And Confused Again

grizzletoad1 · Nov 7, 2011

I think it's time to give up the ghost on my ms. After working at it for over a year, refining and rewritting, I have wound up right back where I started. I thought it was good, but I just got a reject from an agent that said "I didn't have enough 'oomph!' in my opening to get him to take me on. Now what? When I put the 'Oomph!' into it, I'm in the POV of the victim, who cannot be the main character because she is too weak. When I stick with my mc, I have to start my story slowly to get the story up to speed. There's no way to put him in the middle of any action, unless I screw with the timeline of the story, and that just makes things confusing. I'M GOING INSANE HERE!! I just can't rewrite this again! I'm tired and burnt out and just plain at my wits end! I KNOW this is a GREAT story. But no one is willing to give it a chance. Why did I ever go down this freaking road. It's led only to a lot of indigestion and a lot of lost time. Should have just thrown in the towel as soon as you people saw the first drafts when it sat at 133274 words. Now that it's cut down to 84675 words, it still sucks! I guess this is what it's like when you realize your dream has not died, it just never was alive in the first place. I GIVE UP!

happywritermom · Nov 7, 2011

Have you tried writing two different POVs -- the main character's and the victim's? That would allow you to lead with the victim, but still let the MC carry the story. Don't give up yet. Just put it down a while and work on something else. It took me six years to finish (really finish) my first novel.
One year is nothing.
And if an agent cared enough to comment at all, you must have something worth reading in there.

Jamesaritchie · Nov 7, 2011

Giving up because one agent didn't like the opening is giving up about fifty agents too soon.

But I will say there's never, ever a need to start slowly and build a story up to speed, no matter whose POV it's in. It's a classic mistake, and always fixable. A great story has to open like a great story, or it isn't a great story.

heyjude · Nov 7, 2011

Grizzle, my friend, it sounds like you need a break. A nice, long break. Not a "Put the ms away and never think about it again," but a "Put it away for a month, or three, and write something new or just read a lot of fun books--for your own sanity."

We've all been there, sick of our own work. I was there a few weeks ago, ready to throw the dang thing across the room. This is part of the path for some of us. Give yourself a break, have some chocolate, and keep us posted on how you're doing.

grizzletoad1 · Nov 7, 2011

I'm just real down right now.

grizzletoad1 · Nov 7, 2011

Lori and others,

This thing is written primarily in my main character's POV, but it does shift quite a bit as the story progresses. I think I should have just stayed with my 94000 word version, which started in the POV of my "victim," the main character's love interest, and then seguaied to the mc's POV. But that led to another problem: The readers all know what the central conflict is before the mc does, and when he finally comes into the picture, you then have to wait for him to come up to speed. It's a classic double tap where you are rehashing events in the story twice before you go forward. My most recent rewrite brings everything into my mc's POV and you find out the central conflicts as he does, as it should probably be written. But that leads to the slow, "Oomphless'" start. There's really no other way to start the thing if I stick in only my mc's POV. I'm stuck in a terminal loop now. Go with a multiple POV and delay the time where the readers meet the mc, or start with the mc and hope readers will stick with the sluggish start because of the mysterious elements I've given my mc. Which way is up? Like I said, I'm lost!

DocBrown · Nov 7, 2011

99% of the time you can bring a character up to speed in a sentence or two. A paragraph at most. I'm not sure why you would need to rehash something twice.

Anyway, I worked on my novel for over two and half years and I had 10 drafts where I completely rewrote the first 25-30k words five times before I got the right beginning. And I'm sure there would still be people who would complain that chapters 4-6 lull a little.

I'm with HJ, only I think you should take a bit longer. I think you should set it aside for an entire new WIP. Write another novel and come back in a year to see it with more mature and objective eyes. then you can decide whether or not to trunk it. I now know that's what I should have done with my story, but didn't.

Bufty · Nov 7, 2011

I am sorry you are feeling down Grizzletoad. It's only natural. What I write below is not meant to put you down any more - it's raising issues you have to consider and face up to. We all have to overcome these issues.

You can write but you have to discover the technique of writing so folk are caught up in the tale. You can do it, - I've read the entire manuscript so stop slagging yourself off.

But it's the same for all of us, the technique has to be learned. Okay?

Grizzletoad, I'm real sorry about your rejection, BUT -
ask yourself -

Other than ramble on about the character's past history and background and set-up, what have I written in my opening 4,000 words to make the reader want to turn the page? What unwritten question(s) have I planted in the reader's mind?

Your main character wakes up with a hangover, showers, checks his reflection in the mirror, listens to the news, has three cups of coffee, moans about his injured knee, reflects on which shift he's going to do today, tells me he's on leave so he could attend his Uncle's funeral, then goes to the HQ via a thirty minute drive that I'm told is uneventful, parks in the parking lot, enters HQ and chats to his welcoming mates - including the secretary - during which I learn his brother who lives elsewhere didn't attend the funeral of the Uncle who looked after them when their dad died, then MC is told a rookie is being allocated to him, but the MC moans so the boss gives him a long lecture about his drinking and how he has to make choices or he's out, so he accepts the new rookie and the pair of them of drive off, chit chatting about more background and set-up, then they see a little boy playing on the level-crossing gates and the gates rise with the boy hanging on but despite his painful knee good old Mike rescues the little boy.

End of Chapter One.

4,000 words is 16 pages! Concentrating upon the MC's POV is fine, but no story in sight yet.

Grizzletoad - the problem is of your own making, friend.

None of these opening events prove to have any impact upon the subsequent tale. I have to also question why the rookie intro is in the story at all. It smacks of Dirty Harry to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any of the above topics occurring again or even being referred to in the subsequent tale.

You simply refuse to let go of the idea that you have to bury the reader in Mike's background and history before a reader can follow the damned story.

Forgive my language, but have you read any of the books that were recommended to you months ago?

I think the answer is no - because if you had you would have cut that opening Chapter without a second's hesitation.

You could -if you so wished - convey the MC's drink and knee problems in a few lines of dialogue between him and his new partner in the cafe. Everything else currently in the opening chapter is not relevant to getting a reader interested in turning the page.

Then the trespassing call or whatever comes through and bang! they're zipping off to the railroad yard and you're into the story straight away within a couple of pages. That should help resolve one issue at least.

That's my twopenneth - but you got that and more to boot a month or so ago after I read your entire manuscript - I just couldn't resist responding here.

Your move.

Good luck.

cbenoi1 · Nov 7, 2011

This might be a candidate for alternating POVs, which is very powerful if the two are in close proximity. TV shows employ this tactic often. While the FBI is searching one building in the complex (or otherwise minding their own business), the bad guy is harming the girl in another and she's crying for help. Will the FBI get their act together and find the girl in time? The collision between the two is unavoidable and the tension is high. When the FBI finally gets into the right house, they find the girl all right. But - oh surprise - she's tied to a bomb. Now the POVs become one. New problem. New goal. Renewed tension.

Hope this helps.

-cb

CACTUSWENDY · Nov 7, 2011

IMHO get three betas. Don't work on or re read while they have it. (Maybe two weeks.) Then listen to their input and see if the majority find the same things in your work that might be tightened up.

This should put a new look or refresh your view of your story. Good luck.

Pistol Whipped Bee · Nov 7, 2011

grizzletoad1 said:
I'm just real down right now.

Then this is the time to put your story to bed so you can take a break from it. You can't force the story out of you. You have to allow it to tell itself and it can't do that when you've short-circuited.

kaitie · Nov 7, 2011

Also keep in mind that it's one opinion. It might indicate a problem, but it might also just be one person's take on the manuscript. I've gotten conflicting responses from agents before.

I think the best thing to do is to put the whole thing aside and do something you enjoy and then when you're less emotional go back and see if anything stands out. I know that personally a lot of times after I get over the omg I'm going to cry stage, I can actually recognize the problem and know how to fix it. Or I might realize I completely disagree with what was said and disregard it.

Bufty · Nov 8, 2011

No- it's not just one person's take, katie. It's a recurring theme whenever the opening is posted.

And rectifying the opening is not going to rectify any of the other issues that have also kept cropping up.

Actually starting and finishing a story is nevertheless a great achievement in itself and something Grizzletoad - and his friends and family - should be proud of, but aiming for commercial publication is a totally different kettle of fish.

In my humble opinion, self-publishing -with minimal expense - is Grizzletoad's best route if he does not wish to budge in his approach to the story structure and execution.

happywritermom · Nov 8, 2011

Bufty makes some excellent points.
Those are very common mistakes for beginners.
I had to kill my entire first chapter of my first novel once I realized that, even though the events were central to the story, they were too emotionally difficult for most readers.
Killing that chapter just about killed me.
But, as I rewrote the story, I realized that the events had a much more powerful impact when they were alluded to later in the story and when bits and pieces of chapter one were included here and there.
After I made those changes, I finally got an agent (and then terminated with him, but that's another story.). Now I have partials out to three highly respected independent publishers.
You can do this, but you have to be willing to listen to others and to work hard. As many have suggested, put it down. Maybe even for a long time -- six months to a year. Start a new novel with all that you have learned from writing the first.
You'll be amazed at how quickly your errors in the first novel pop out at you when you pick it back up again.
Have some faith.
Depression will get you nowhere.

quicklime · Nov 8, 2011

grizzletoad1 said:
I think it's time to give up the ghost on my ms. After working at it for over a year, refining and rewritting, I have wound up right back where I started. I thought it was good, but I just got a reject from an agent that said "I didn't have enough 'oomph!' in my opening to get him to take me on. Now what? When I put the 'Oomph!' into it, I'm in the POV of the victim, who cannot be the main character because she is too weak. When I stick with my mc, I have to start my story slowly to get the story up to speed. There's no way to put him in the middle of any action, unless I screw with the timeline of the story, and that just makes things confusing. I'M GOING INSANE HERE!! I just can't rewrite this again! I'm tired and burnt out and just plain at my wits end! I KNOW this is a GREAT story. But no one is willing to give it a chance. Why did I ever go down this freaking road. It's led only to a lot of indigestion and a lot of lost time. Should have just thrown in the towel as soon as you people saw the first drafts when it sat at 133274 words. Now that it's cut down to 84675 words, it still sucks! I guess this is what it's like when you realize your dream has not died, it just never was alive in the first place. I GIVE UP!

Grizzle,

You are going through a lot of rounds of pointless self-flagellation. Do you want to write? Do you really? Then get used to the concept of a "trunk novel". And while you are clearly burned out completely on this one, move to something new, instead of rearranging deck chairs.

John Saul made headlines in the 70s when his debut novel got a crazy-high advance. He went on to sell far better than I believe he should have, but hey, the point is, he became a best-selling author. THE BOOK HE SOLD WAS HIS SEVENTH COMPLETED NOVEL; 1-6 WERE REJECTED.

Stephen King used to keep a nail tacked int he attic where he wrote that he hung rejection slips on....until the nail bent. He got a new nail.

Failure is a part of this. Your first book may be globally fucked to where it will never sell, or it may just take time and distance to fix it. In either case, move on. I can understand wanting to collect some sympathies, nothing wrong with that, but I don't think you are getting the other part of this message. Maybe you need time and practice to make it happen, and continuing to beat a dead horse isn't going to help. I don't personally believe you can't make a thriller involving without going for a "Page 1 kill" or nonlinear, and I also suspect you can make a good start in the girl's pov and switch over in a few chapters. But I think you probably can't do anything right now without taking a month away from this book so you can come back fresh. and you might as well spend that free time making something new.

Give yourself some space.

kaitie · Nov 8, 2011

Did you already send me the first few chapters? I don't see them saved, but I might have just misplaced it. If not send them my way. I'm occasionally clever at things like this.

quicklime · Nov 8, 2011

grizzletoad1 said:
Lori and others,

This thing is written primarily in my main character's POV, but it does shift quite a bit as the story progresses. I think I should have just stayed with my 94000 word version, which started in the POV of my "victim," the main character's love interest, and then seguaied to the mc's POV. But that led to another problem: The readers all know what the central conflict is before the mc does, and when he finally comes into the picture, you then have to wait for him to come up to speed. It's a classic double tap where you are rehashing events in the story twice before you go forward. My most recent rewrite brings everything into my mc's POV and you find out the central conflicts as he does, as it should probably be written. But that leads to the slow, "Oomphless'" start. There's really no other way to start the thing if I stick in only my mc's POV. I'm stuck in a terminal loop now. Go with a multiple POV and delay the time where the readers meet the mc, or start with the mc and hope readers will stick with the sluggish start because of the mysterious elements I've given my mc. Which way is up? Like I said, I'm lost!

1. don't do anything for awhile......note I'm not the only one to suggest this. Work on something else, to help hone your skills and also to push this further from your mind.

2. That said, you could write the whole thing from the girl being the mc, from the guy, either way. I think because of personal experience you are in love with the idea of writing as the rail cop, but it may just not work out that way....or, maybe he DOESN'T know exactly what the bad guys have planned--I assume you've read a fair amount of thriller/suspense; this is hardly unique. In the meantime he knows enough to act--they took the girl and shot up his yard, he wants to get her back and catch them.

3. sluggish starts--look up a few King books. they often start minus decapitations and guts.....but they are engaging. as JAR said, you need to hold the reader, and engage them--you don't need a bang or inciting incident immediately to do this though.

quicklime · Nov 8, 2011

happywritermom said:
You can do this, but you have to be willing to listen to others and to work hard. ......

.... Start a new novel with all that you have learned from writing the first....

......You'll be amazed at how quickly your errors in the first novel pop out at you when you pick it back up again......
.

all quoted for truth....

quicklime · Nov 8, 2011

one last thought grizzle:

look at the last post I put in tko's thread and the line by the PI......

I am getting the impression from what Bufty said that you are maybe bogging the first chapter down with a lot of heavy-handed stage-setting and infodumping. Look at the line about being sober and clean-shaven, and not caring who knew.....you would write entire paragraphs to describe exactly what came out in a sentence, and you would not make them anywhere near as impactful as everything he says, and doesn't say, in that single line. Your guy has a lot of shit going on too....how much are you spoon-feeding us in major sittings, instead of sprinkling throughout the story like a trail of breadcrumbs?

kaitie · Nov 8, 2011

I also want to say that there's nothing wrong with setting something aside and working on something new. I think most of us have done it. I have a book that I love (my favorite character ever is in it) that didn't make it because of beginning problems as well. I'm not sure that it ever will, but I don't consider it "trunked." I consider it set aside until later.

It's a little difficult when you put a lot of time and effort into it, but once you get working on something new it's not bad at all.

grizzletoad1 · Nov 8, 2011

All great ideas and also deeply appreciated. I have been giving this a whole lot of thought today. I think I can jettison that first chapter, but it sure does hurt. It's not the first first chapter I've cut. I think I have dumped about 4 first chapters! All my starts are simply too slow. The one start I had that jumped you into the action calls for me to have a 35 page Chapter 1 with quite a number of POV shifts as it's all in either my victim's POV or the bad guys POV. The main character doesn't come out in that scnario until chapter 2. That is not a good way to start. I think I'll try and go with cutting out my current first chapter. With it will go my mc's interactions with his commanding officer, and the entire story of the kid getting swept up on the gate. There is no place else for that story and sadly it has to go now. I can take a few bits and pieces out of that chapter and sprinkle them in later chapters. It might work, and I'll probably get my word count down to about 80k and 300 pages. I know I have to cut the fat out of the ms, but I don't want my story to become anorexic! As for starting another project, that is simply not going to happen. As some of you might already know, I am a true one trick pony. This is my ONLY story that I've ever thought of in over 20 years of work. It is my one and only shot at a dream. I have no desire to do anything else. I also am not much of a reader, at least of fiction. I simply can't sit and read for hours on end. I have to do things with my hands, whether it's writing, or building models or just plain going for a drive in the country. Like I said, this is it for me. It either sinks or flies, and right now, it's looking more like it's sinking. Just got another reject today. So that's where I stand. If that makes me a hypcrit on this forum, then so be it, but it is also the truth. And now you all know the truth as well. I'm going to give this one more shot. And then I guess I'll have to see what my last move will be. Most likley, I'm heading for E-publishing. Because I've invested too much time and energy, blood and tears, in this thing to just toss it in a trunk. It's going out there, one way or the other. Whether people like it or hate it, it's up to them. I think they'll like it, if they give it the chance. I know, you're not supposed to do that, but what else do I have here. I hope you'll all wish me luck. I do the same for you all. Thanks for your help and kindness. I'll never forget it.

John

quicklime · Nov 8, 2011

grizzletoad1 said:
As for starting another project, that is simply not going to happen. As some of you might already know, I am a true one trick pony. This is my ONLY story that I've ever thought of in over 20 years of work. It is my one and only shot at a dream. I have no desire to do anything else. I also am not much of a reader, at least of fiction. I simply can't sit and read for hours on end. John

john,

i just don't see how this is going to work without you forcing yourself to make some changes. right now you want to have your cake and eat it too, but learning to write doesn't come through a single project, refusal to change, or lack of enthusiasm for reading. This isn't working. You won't make it work looking at the same damn angles over and over.

Decide if you want to make this work, or give up because you aren't willing to do the work, but ideas are useless garbage if you can't execute, and right now you both can't execute and are telling us why you both can't and have no desire to learn to. you talk of investing too much blood, sweat, and tears, but you are unwilling to invest the time you should in actually LEARNING.

Sorry if that comes off harsh, but it is true. Your idea will only sell if you learn to write it well. You will only learn to write well if you read a lot and write a lot. Including outside this story. Saying you have your one idea, and that is it, is a cop-out. Ideas aren't even a dime a dozen; they're more common that that. If you don't "have them" you just don't know where or how to look, or how to recognize them. OR, you're so stuck on this one you are your single greatest impediment to success.

You won't sell this doing more of the things you are already doing. Accept that and drop it, or move on and learn the skills you need. This is a craft, you don't get good at a craft (say woodworking or gardening) by just staining doors or raising tomatoes.

now, pep-talk aside, i will give you one single bone: i assume you drive to work. Shut your radio off. Seriously, shut it off, and let the silence in your car drive you batshit crazy. Like a little kid humming in a library, you'll find your brain makes noise to kill the quiet, if you actually let it. You will find ideas. And if you're not too stubborn, you'll write them. And if you do, you might move ahead. But again, I don't see any way you can when you are insisting on such myopic terms for yourself.

kaitie · Nov 8, 2011

You can always e-publish it if you like. Personally I tend to think of things as "Not necessarily a good first book" and look at it long-term. If I really believe in something, maybe a different book will be the one that gets my foot in the door so I can then go back to the other one. I don't really feel like I'm giving up on anything.

As for cutting the first chapter, I so know how you feel! I had a long chapter with quite a few scenes that I just love. I think they're funny and clever and just downright amusing. I really like starting the story there, but a lot of the feedback I got thought it would be better to mix it up and just toss the first several scenes. I'm still holding onto them. I figure if I ever do get it published, maybe I can put them up on a website as a "lost" chapter lol. I'm a dork like that.

Bufty · Nov 8, 2011

Grizzletoad,

I wish you well whatever route you go, and I hope that if, or when, you self-publish, you let the railroad folks know through the Union or National Railroad magazine or pensioners' magazine or whatever other media there is available for you to communicate with your colleagues and ex-colleagues without incurring undue expense.

Your grandchildren will be proud to hold grandpa's book - of that I have no doubt. I hope mine eventually hold mine, too, because I am really not all that far behind you, friend, and do wish you luck.

Kindest,

Bufty

heyjude · Nov 8, 2011

grizzletoad1 said:
All great ideas and also deeply appreciated. I have been giving this a whole lot of thought today. I think I can jettison that first chapter, but it sure does hurt. It's not the first first chapter I've cut. I think I have dumped about 4 first chapters! All my starts are simply too slow. The one start I had that jumped you into the action calls for me to have a 35 page Chapter 1 with quite a number of POV shifts as it's all in either my victim's POV or the bad guys POV. The main character doesn't come out in that scnario until chapter 2. That is not a good way to start. I think I'll try and go with cutting out my current first chapter. With it will go my mc's interactions with his commanding officer, and the entire story of the kid getting swept up on the gate. There is no place else for that story and sadly it has to go now. I can take a few bits and pieces out of that chapter and sprinkle them in later chapters. It might work, and I'll probably get my word count down to about 80k and 300 pages. I know I have to cut the fat out of the ms, but I don't want my story to become anorexic! As for starting another project, that is simply not going to happen. As some of you might already know, I am a true one trick pony. This is my ONLY story that I've ever thought of in over 20 years of work. It is my one and only shot at a dream. I have no desire to do anything else. I also am not much of a reader, at least of fiction. I simply can't sit and read for hours on end. I have to do things with my hands, whether it's writing, or building models or just plain going for a drive in the country. Like I said, this is it for me. It either sinks or flies, and right now, it's looking more like it's sinking. Just got another reject today. So that's where I stand. If that makes me a hypcrit on this forum, then so be it, but it is also the truth. And now you all know the truth as well. I'm going to give this one more shot. And then I guess I'll have to see what my last move will be. Most likley, I'm heading for E-publishing. Because I've invested too much time and energy, blood and tears, in this thing to just toss it in a trunk. It's going out there, one way or the other. Whether people like it or hate it, it's up to them. I think they'll like it, if they give it the chance. I know, you're not supposed to do that, but what else do I have here. I hope you'll all wish me luck. I do the same for you all. Thanks for your help and kindness. I'll never forget it.

John

Luck, my friend. :Hug2:

Keep us posted.

Lost And Confused Again

Plodding around into things.

Making my own sunshine

Plodding around into things.

Plodding around into things.

Hopes to one day write for food.

Where have the last ten years gone?

An old, sappy, and happy one.

Now what?

With great power comes

Where have the last ten years gone?

all out of fucks to give

With great power comes

all out of fucks to give

all out of fucks to give

all out of fucks to give

With great power comes

Plodding around into things.

all out of fucks to give

With great power comes

Where have the last ten years gone?

Making my own sunshine