Need advice...

Silverhand · Nov 30, 2005

I made a post on the "Writing Novel" forums, but my concepts kinda got whacked.

So, I am turning to people who have more knowledge in this line of work then myself.

I had an agent---it went sour, and I am now unagented. To be honest, I want no more part of agencies, BUT if I HAVE to have one, I will.

That said, the prior agency had me collect alot of my own data. OK, OK, so I get the fact that it was alot shady, and prolly not right, and that they and myself jumped the gun. However, I still did what they asked me to do, prior to terminating my contract with them.

During that entire time, I sent off requests to several fantasy websites that I was referred to by my writing society. Oddly enough, one replied back, willing to read, review, and assist back.

Obviously, I took the oppurtunity to hear what a well respected website thought of my non-published book, so I made a PDF file and sent it out.

About 2 weeks ago, I recieved an email from the guy who said he was willing to help. He let me know that he had sent it to one of the sites founding members for a review. At that time, he told me that the guy who was reading the novel was very impressed and that a review was forthcoming.

Today, that review was posted on this web site: http://fantasybookspot.com/

The novel is Forge of the Gods: The Last Knight.
I am Eric Fogle, the author of said novel.

Too the point, when I first contacted these guys, #1 I had no hopes of even being given this chance. #2 I had no hopes that the review would be what it was. #3 I had an agent.

I no longer have the agent and I am not searching for one. On that same note, I have been searching high and low for a small publisher that fits my style, and it seems that each one I find is shady in some way.

My question to you guys is: Will this review help me in any way whatsoever? Is it worth mentioning it to a publisher? Should I try to take the time to market myself via this review? Will an agent / publisher gives one rats behind that someone thought the novel was good?

I guess I am just seeking sound advice, because each time I ask a question regarding beta-readers, reviews, and my own marketing I get laughed out of town like I am a moron. (which maybe I am) heh

Please help.

DaveKuzminski · Nov 30, 2005

The review is useless in my opinion since you're stating that your book isn't published yet. I think if you mention the review, you may cause publishers to believe your book has already been published and that you're only offering reprint rights.

By the way, who was the agent?

scfirenice · Nov 30, 2005

I don't know if I agree with this. If the review came from a well known source I might explain the situation to the publisher/agent in part of your query. Now if it were your MOM's review, no it would be useless. I'd wait for more input. I'd hate to let something THAT good pass though.

victoriastrauss · Nov 30, 2005

No, the review won't help you. It's a great review, and that's wonderful, but even if it were from a professional review venue, at this point it would be just one reader's opinion, which won't improve your chances with agents and publishers (who want to make their own judgments).

I too would like to know who the agent was.

- Victoria

Mike Coombes · Nov 30, 2005

The review is of little importance either way; use it or not, it may whet the appetite, it probably wom't hurt.

I think that the one thing the review raised for me is - are you marketing this in the right directions? It would appear you have written a fantasy with a strong religious theme - not to my taste, but I happened to read a couple of months ago that the Christian fiction market in the US is growing fast, and is already worth several billion dollars a year. There are agents and publishers who deal in nothing else but this kind of book. Have you researched your market properly? Are you looking in the right direction?

Silverhand · Nov 30, 2005

Mike,

Too be honest I dont know. All in all, I had around 20 beta-readers check this story out. It is very religious, but it keeps changing. Literally, this is what I have heard:

"This is one of the better christian fantasy novels I have ever read."
"I would never pick this book up because it slams Christians."
"Anyone who enjoys critical thinking will enjoy a theological fantasy such as this..."
"I love the story, I love the characters, but the author is obviously preaching Christianity to me..."
"Mr Fogle, this is one of the finest fantasy novels I have ever read. It is a shame that you feel the need to attack religion, mainly Christianity, the way you do..."

You see what I mean, no one can decide what exactly I am writing about. Is that good or bad? Jeez, I honestly do not know. My wife was pretty pissed when I said I was gonna try and market it to a christian based agent wayyyyyyy back when though, so I never tried. lol

As to my agent, I made a really big mistake, and did not take advice of this site. I would really rather not even mention the name of said person, because I know she reads this site. I hope that doesnt offend anyone, I just dont want anymore drama.

Sage · Nov 30, 2005

Silverhand said:
Too be honest I dont know. All in all, I had around 20 beta-readers check this story out. It is very religious, but it keeps changing. Literally, this is what I have heard:

"This is one of the better christian fantasy novels I have ever read."
"I would never pick this book up because it slams Christians."
"Anyone who enjoys critical thinking will enjoy a theological fantasy such as this..."
"I love the story, I love the characters, but the author is obviously preaching Christianity to me..."
"Mr Fogle, this is one of the finest fantasy novels I have ever read. It is a shame that you feel the need to attack religion, mainly Christianity, the way you do..."

You see what I mean, no one can decide what exactly I am writing about. Is that good or bad? Jeez, I honestly do not know. My wife was pretty pissed when I said I was gonna try and market it to a christian based agent wayyyyyyy back when though, so I never tried. lol

Now, you've got me interested. I'm not Christian, but sometimes I am intrigued by Christianity in fiction, as long as it's not preachy. From the review it sounds like the reviewer was expecting preachy, but didn't get it, so that's cool.

You have to remember that some people think that anyone mentioning Christianity in a positive way is preaching. I have friends who will complain about music about God or by bands that are openly Christian even if they're not singing about God. There are also Christians who think that any mention of Christianity that isn't completely 100% positive or cannon w/ the Bible is anti-Christian.

Keep in mind that controversy may be good for your book. If people start discussing whether it's pro-Christianity or anti-Christianity, others might pick it up to have a say in the matter. On the other hand, it may hurt if readers only hear one side, & they're told it's not a view they agree with.

So, how did you see it when you wrote it though? Pro-Christianity, anti-Christianity, neither but with some Christian themes, no Christianity at all (what were these people thinking?

) That might help you with how you should a) submit it & b) answer people's comments about the Christian views in it

Good luck.

Silverhand · Dec 2, 2005

First lemme continue you my intial question about the review, then I am gonna answer yer question Sage.

The reason I keep asking these questions, is because all the small publishers, heck even some of the large publishers, I have been reasearching want a marketing plan. Nicely enough most of the sites I have been to break down exactly what type of plan they are looking for: What genre do you see yerself in. How do you plan to help increase sales. What are you willing to do? etc etc.

This is a good example.

http://www.medallionpress.com/

What am I willing to do? Well I am willing to go to a website and seek reviews to help promote myself.? BTW the review was very nice?

Also, should I mention that I am the VP of Sales and Marketing for my company? I know I am not in literary business, but if marketing yourself if important to them, then is my experience at marketing not very relevant? Should I mention it just in the query letter? or just the marketing plan?

Anyways,

Sage to your question. My main character is a paladin, who is devout in his faith towards The One God. So in that aspect, he takes on the role that most consider a very devout Christian, though I see him as just a followe of his beleifs. What ye have to understand is that Heaven in my world is really Hell, AND the gods are fallen angels that beleive themselves to be omnipotent (The real God has wiped their memories clean) Anyways, the main character is the bringer of the apocolyspe to the false Heaven, and events take place on very theological / philosophical grounds.

For example, and this is why my mother-in-law (very devout cathloic) thought I was attacking Christians as a whole, at the start of each part in my novel I have my main character writing a journal entry where he talks about theology with an atheist philospher. Some of the things they talk about are straw man arguments, some are legit, some are my own. I try to allow for the arguments to end as a draw, but with the atheist always spitting at the paladins feet in disgust at his faith. Anyways, what she doesnt understand is that the philospher is God, talking to my main character about himself, proving that though my main character may be very devout, he is a LIMITED creature, thus bound by the very real possibility that the main character may be partially right, wholly right, or completely wrong in his judgements. In a way he is also doing these debates as a theological test of my main characters faith. Is that pro or anti? I dunno, it just made sense to me to write theology in a way that will make a normal person go "wow, i have though of that too." "That is a good point." "Man, people who beleive or dont beleive treat me that exact same way."

On a side note, I am an agnostic, and as such follow no one religion. Saying that, I do not find one single religion right or wrong, as it is not my place to judge another. In my eyes, only God may do that...and the relationship He and I have is singular and too personal for anyone else to understand. I hope I explained that well enough...

victoriastrauss · Dec 2, 2005

Silverhand said:
The reason I keep asking these questions, is because all the small publishers, heck even some of the large publishers, I have been reasearching want a marketing plan.

Some reasonably professional smaller publishers (by no means all) do ask for marketing plans with fiction submissions, but large publishers don't. A marketing plan is a standard feature of nonfiction proposals, where the target audience and the author's "platform" are important--but it's not very useful for fiction, where the market is much more amorphous, and the author's efforts usually have little effect on sales.

I am always suspicious of any publisher that requires a marketing plan for fiction, because it suggests to me that the publisher is inexperienced, or else that it relies on its authors as an unpaid sales force. Neither is a recipe for decent sales and exposure.

Also, should I mention that I am the VP of Sales and Marketing for my company? I know I am not in literary business, but if marketing yourself if important to them, then is my experience at marketing not very relevant?

Probably not--at least at the authorial level. Marketing books is not like marketing other products--and anyway, authors don't have access to the marketing channels of the book trade.

Believe me when I tell you that for most commercial publishers, what you plan to do to promote yourself is completely irrelevant.

- Victoria

Jewel101 · Dec 2, 2005

Silverhand said:
Sage to your question. My main character is a paladin, who is devout in his faith towards The One God. So in that aspect, he takes on the role that most consider a very devout Christian, though I see him as just a followe of his beleifs. What ye have to understand is that Heaven in my world is really Hell, AND the gods are fallen angels that beleive themselves to be omnipotent (The real God has wiped their memories clean) Anyways, the main character is the bringer of the apocolyspe to the false Heaven, and events take place on very theological / philosophical grounds.

For example, and this is why my mother-in-law (very devout cathloic) thought I was attacking Christians as a whole, at the start of each part in my novel I have my main character writing a journal entry where he talks about theology with an atheist philospher. Some of the things they talk about are straw man arguments, some are legit, some are my own. I try to allow for the arguments to end as a draw, but with the atheist always spitting at the paladins feet in disgust at his faith. Anyways, what she doesnt understand is that the philospher is God, talking to my main character about himself, proving that though my main character may be very devout, he is a LIMITED creature, thus bound by the very real possibility that the main character may be partially right, wholly right, or completely wrong in his judgements. In a way he is also doing these debates as a theological test of my main characters faith. Is that pro or anti? I dunno, it just made sense to me to write theology in a way that will make a normal person go "wow, i have though of that too." "That is a good point." "Man, people who beleive or dont beleive treat me that exact same way."

On a side note, I am an agnostic, and as such follow no one religion. Saying that, I do not find one single religion right or wrong, as it is not my place to judge another. In my eyes, only God may do that...and the relationship He and I have is singular and too personal for anyone else to understand. I hope I explained that well enough...

from what I see, you are nether anit or pro, you are merely hosting a struggle between the two as a plot feature.

As for your book..........

I wanna read it!!I wanna read it!!I wanna read it!!I wanna read it!!, hurry up and get is published

Sage · Dec 2, 2005

Jewel101 said:
from what I see, you are nether anit or pro, you are merely hosting a struggle between the two as a plot feature.

As for your book..........

I wanna read it!!I wanna read it!!I wanna read it!!I wanna read it!!, hurry up and get is published

Yes, I agree.

SeanDSchaffer · Dec 2, 2005

Your book sounds cool, Silverhand. I hope you have great success with it.

I wish I could say anything either way on the agent issue, but I've never had one or even had a book professionally published. All I can do is wish you the best and that you find the answers you need.

And again, the synopsis you gave was very enjoyable. I always like books that make me think. And especially so, if it makes me think more in-depth about my own faith. I wish you the best of success with it.

Diana Hignutt · Dec 3, 2005

Victoria Strauss wrote:

I am always suspicious of any publisher that requires a marketing plan for fiction, because it suggests to me that the publisher is inexperienced, or else that it relies on its authors as an unpaid sales force. Neither is a recipe for decent sales and exposure.

My experience with smaller pubs bares out the wisdom of Victoria's words. If a small publisher wants your marketing plan for fiction it probably means that they don't have much distribution, pr, marketing, etc. This is the path to heartbreak if you have written something that you believe in. I've made this mistake twice now. Sure, I've done LOTS of interviews on national tv, radio and newspapers across the country, I've gotten my books reviewed in some big places (Publishers Weekly, etc.), I've had my books get serious award attention, I've done all the obligitory book signings, boor fairs, etc. When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what you do with most small publishers, if they don't know how to sell your books, you aren't going to be able to do it for them. If they are asking you how to sell your fiction books, it sounds like they don't know how. Why not try for something better?

As to your review, if it were from a very famous author, it might help you get the notice of agents, etc. Otherwise, I wouldn't mention it...it makes it sound (as others have said) like the book has already been published. A real turn off to agents/publishers. Your book sounds like it deserves a real chance. Best of luck.

emeraldcite · Dec 3, 2005

http://www.medallionpress.com/

I've seen their books on shelves in stores. They actually have distribution.

They also have the most kickass cover design team. I always pick up their books because of the design.

However, that noted, the one or two books I've read from them could use stronger editorial direction. They weren't bad and I'll continue buying their books, but the direction for revision could use a stronger hand. Hopefully they grow. I think quality will improve with time.

http://www.medallionpress.com/

Silverhand · Dec 5, 2005

thanks for all the info you guys!!

Need advice...

Silverhand

DaveKuzminski

Preditors & Editors

scfirenice

professional multitasker

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess

Mike Coombes

Guru

Silverhand

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

Silverhand

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess

Jewel101

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

SeanDSchaffer

Diana Hignutt

Very Tired

emeraldcite

Art is Resistance

Silverhand