My 70th Rejection

[cwilliard]

I just got my 70th rejection for two novels that I've written. I know that many will say that many great writers and books have been rejected hundreds of times before they were finally accepted. That doesn't ease my tension at all. Everyone of the 70 queries that I sent were full of hope and dreams that my hard work would be appreciated.

The process is frustrating as well. Agents want you to be meticulous and address them personaly and if you make a mistake they look down on you. When they send a reply it's often an idiotic form letter that really says nothing. I can understand that agents are busy but if they expect us to be curtious they could return the favor. I also recieved replies back that were my original query letter with words scibbled on it that are barely legible but look like "Sorry not for me" or "I'll pass".

What makes me the most angry are agents that say they are looking for new writers in all genre then reply that my story isn't for them. It's not like with market is flooded with Mafia stories. There aren't any new ones out, aside from the new Godfather novel. Also, I state in my query letter that my series is easily tranferible to a movie. Where are the good Mafia movies? I saw a preview for a new movie out the other day; In The Mix. At first I was a little excited then I learned more about the movies and realized that it has a stupid premise. Usher saves a Mob bosses life then the Mob boss make Usher his daughter's bodyguard because the gangsters are going after the bosses family. then Usher reveals that he is sleeping with the daughter. This is stupid. It isn't in any way feasible. It would never happen in real life.

I'm not saying the my novels are the next Godfather or Goodfellas. What I'm saying is that there are few if any stories that deal with this subject and fewer are realistic. It would seem that there is a market out there that is being overlooked by short sighted agents and least 70 had the answer in their hands. For two years I've waited and hoped and prayed that someone would realize this, so far to two years of disapointment.

As I said it is just so fustrating to see something that you worked so hard on and know that people would like go unappreciated and unnoticed.

How many others out there feel the same?

[Julie Worth]

Maybe your query is the problem? You might consider posting it in the query critique section of the share your work board.

[Maryn]

We understand and sympathize with your frustration. But I think that the time may be nearing for you to try to determine why agents are taking a pass or telling you it's not right for them. The fact that seventy agents have chosen not to represent it suggests that in their professional opinion--by which they earn a living--not enough people will like it, despite your feeling that they would.

I doubt that it's entirely due to subject matter--although I also point out that "seeking all genres" is not the same as seeking all subjects. Perhaps the time is not right for your novels--but I suspect that the very best popular fiction has no wrong time.

Call me tactless if you like, but I see quite a few mistakes with written English in your post. Are you absolutely certain that your novels don't contain any? Your query? A book would have to be pretty amazing for an agent to take it on despite overt errors.

If you like, you could post a chapter at Share Your Work. Maybe the input you receive could help you identify areas for change or improvement.

Maryn, fully sympathetic

[maestrowork]

Maybe it's all just an amazing race to see who have the best endurance (and sometimes talent helps, too) and who could abide by the rules...

After all, these are really what agents and editors are looking for (and making us feel worthy and appreciated as writers are NOT part of it...):

1. A writer who can write, obviously
2. A story that will sell
3. A writer who is professional and can take the heat and work well with others

So, if we look at it this way, sort of like a long job interview, then perhaps we could get some perspective and not become so harsh on ourselves. We also should know how many queries, proposals, requests, partials, and full mss these people get. A newspaper reporter told me she got 300-400 BOOKS (actual, published books) a week requesting reviews. That's just published books. Can you imagine how many queries an agent get?

[StoryG27]

In those 70 rejections, were they all rejections of just the query, or were any of them partials? If it is solely your query that has been rejected, you might want to post it for critiques like Julie suggested. If you have also had partials rejected, post your first chapter like Maryn suggested. The Share Your Work thread is a great place to recieve helpful advice and maybe it can get you moving in a different direction so you can get this great story of yours into the hands of the right agent.

[SpookyWriter]

Call me tactless if you like, but I see quite a few mistakes with written English in your post.

Ouch! I'm not sure if using a spell checker is important in this instance. Maybe there were a few typos and other grammatical mistakes, but I think her message of frustration is more important here. True?

P.S. I didn't bother to spell check before posting, hope there's no problem with my grammar?

Jon

[maestrowork]

No, typos and grammatical errors are not important in forums... but it could be indicative of the problems with the OP's queries or ms, which should be as perfect as possible. Typos such as "curtious" shouldn't even be there (sorry for being blunt).

I agree that you might want to workshop your queries and/or sample chapters to see if they're the problem and if they could be improved.

[SpookyWriter]

I just got my 70th rejection for two novels that I've written.

I, of unsound mind and poor editing skills, respectively disagree with spelling at this point in her message. I read it as frantic and upset, so spelling errors are expected. I think her original message was written within a short time span of receiving the rejection and therefore, her emotions dictated her writing. Characters do this all the time in stories. We don't always write (or speak) perfect prose when we're emotionally charged. So, in some respects, she provided us with an example of what to expect in an emotional situation.

P.S. I continue to edit this message for clarity and sense of purpose. How am I doing?

Jon

[seriouslydog]

One thing I enjoy about the forums is that everyone is so supportive. Writing is extremely difficult - from finding the time, to self-doubt, to just the simple mechanics one must learn to write well - and having a group of people you can commiserate with definitely helps.

But sometimes it hurts too. Sometimes so much support helps keep the blinders on. The truth is, after 70 rejections, it's not simply a matter of a poorly written query letter or "market timing." I think you have to seriously consider the quality of the writing.

That doesn't mean you can't improve the quality of your writing. But it may not be there yet. So the question is, right now, do you have the ability to look at your own work objectively? And if so, do you have the ability to work hard and improve?

seriously,

dog

[SpookyWriter]

Dog,

Okay, I'll concede that after 70 rejections there might be something to the writing. I wouldn't know because I can't seem to get a rejection and it's going on three months. I, just me personally, would love to get one of the five agents reviewing my partials to say "Sorry, but ....".

Errr...I can't even get my ex-wife to send me a rejection letter.

So, yes, I would suspect it is my writing if I had sooooo many rejections.

Cheers,

Jon

[Tienci]

Call me tactless if you like, but I see quite a few mistakes with written English in your post. Are you absolutely certain that your novels don't contain any? Your query? A book would have to be pretty amazing for an agent to take it on despite overt errors.

What can I say, this was my immediate thought as well. In addition, I agree that perhaps you should post a section of your work for some critical feedback.

I have not been so lucky as to have completed a work to get to the rejection/acceptance stage as yet, but when I do, if I were to get seventy (in fact, much less) rejections, some serious overhauling would take place or I'd put that work aside until I can see what the editors were trying to say, however tersely :).

[SusanR]

In the 1970s, I was working as a nurse, and I decided I needed to go to medical school and become a doctor. The first thing I did was to gather information: what did I need to do to get in?

As part of that research, I made an appointment with the Big Premedical Advisor at the nearby state university. He looked at my college transcripts and said, "You will need two years in which to fulfill premed requirements. You will have to take Organic Chem, Physics, Calculus, Anatomy and Physiology, and a 300-level English class in the same year, something I advise NOBODY to do. You will have to get a 4.0 average in both years. And even then, you won't get into an American medical school. You'll have to go the foreign route. I don't think it can be done, frankly."

I really, really needed to become a physician, and I wouldn't let impossible odds stop me, and now I'm a graduate of an American medical school and in my twenty-fifth year of practice.

You must believe in yourself.

But you also must gather all the reality-based information you can. You've gotten tons of good suggestions. Make sure your query is perfect. Get feedback on the novels. If several readers tell you they are wonderful, keep submitting. The worst thing that can happen is that you discover your novels have fatal flaws. Then you can go and learn how to fix them. You will write better novels. And one day, they will be published.

If you really, really need to be a writer, you will keep writing.

Susan

[reph]

Typos such as "curtious" shouldn't even be there (sorry for being blunt).
I agree. "Curtious" is no mere typo. It has one letter missing and another letter wrong. It suggests a writer who doesn't know how to spell the word and doesn't recognize when to look a word up instead of going by sound. Another misspelling, the one of "receive," is an elementary error, literally: I think we were all warned against that one before high school. An agent who finds such mistakes in a query letter or on page 1 of a manuscript will likely conclude that the writer hasn't achieved a professional enough grasp of language to produce a manuscript ready for submission.

Sorry for being even blunter than Maestro.

[SpookyWriter]

I hate the word curtesy courtesy curtious because we don't phonetically spell the word as it is written. Say it a few times, remind yourself that i before e except...then write fast and furious because someone sent you the 70th rejection letter.

Coincidence? Maybe bad spelling and poor grammar in a haphazard post is a sign that the writer has poor English skills or not. Until we see a sample of their (not there) writing it is judgmental on our part.



P.S. No editing done here, so there (not their)....



Jon

[loquax]

The "i" before "e" rule is just plain weird.

[Birol]

While I am one of the first people to say that messages on a bulletin board or in an IM are informal and one should not worry about minor typos or grammatical mistakes, I, too, noticed several errors in the original post even though I was not initially looking for them and wondered if that was the root cause of the problem.

I appreciate your stance, Jon, and commend you for coming to cwilliard's defense, but even when we are emotional, our everyday skills are not usually overridden to the degree indicated here. It is entirely possible that grammatical and spelling errors are the reason for the number of rejections received; it should be looked at as a source of the of problem quite seriously.

I don't think any of the individuals who have pointed this out as a possible cause did so with malice. It is something they noticed and, although it may be difficult to hear, it is a problem that can and should be corrected if someone really wishes to become published.

[DenimSoul]

Hi. I do agree 100% that this whole process is extremely frustrating. However, rejection, is a vital part of the process. Especially frustrating when one searches high and low to find the agents that are 'perfect fits' and then they get rejected. Remember though, it's not a necessity to have an agent. If you do decide to post your query or some sample chapters in forums for critiquing and everything looks good on those ends then just go straight to the source and query publishers and omit the middle man.

I'm amazed you found 70 agents to query. I've been hard-pressed to find a handful that would fit my writing style.

Just keep pressing forward and inch by inch you'll get to your goal.

[SpookyWriter]

I don't think any of the individuals who have pointed this out as a possible cause did so with malice.

Nor I, least of all, because I too make mistakes when agitated or excited and my utterances aren't always intelligible.

So albeit, baring the glaring omissions in stance or tempo, how we communicate our thoughts in a casual atmosphere is indicative of our abilities to express a story to the reader. Poorly written methods of communication or exacerbated thoughts can preclude us to believe the root cause of rejection is the lack of English skills.

Jon

[stormie]

I'm amazed you found 70 agents to query. I've been hard-pressed to find a handful that would fit my writing style.

I was wondering the same thing.

Anyway, as some others have said, rejection is part of the process. But when you accumulate too many on one ms. or query, you have to take a step back, put the work aside, then a month later reread it. Maybe there's no hook at the beginning, maybe the characters are flat, scenery over-descriptive.... A beta reader would help if you can't see any flaws. Whatever you do, if you really enjoy writing, you really want to be a writer, then don't give up.

[egem]

I love it when writers come in at the end of their ropes just to find other writers pointing to misspellings and grammatical problems in their posts as reasons for being rejected by editors and agents. Nothing like getting bashed at your lowest point for something that you took little time and care in writing.

Cwilliard I would guess, being that you have been rejected 70 times, that your main problem is lack of research and a haphazard query letter. I only say this because to send out 70 mss and have them read would seem to take a very long time. I think you need to find a way to resell your work to the editors and agents you are sending to. I would start there. I would guess not many agents and editors have seen the work. You should be reworking it if they have.

Also the subject matter you point to tends to be a little research intensive. Does your background support this work? Have you done a lot of research into the subject? I think it is very easy to look like amateur when writing this subject matter. I'm not saying that to be mean. I mean it is a very difficult subject rich in language and situations (I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know already). My point here is to make sure there isn't anything in your work that is a dead giveway that is putting editors and agents off. Like others have said you might want to post some of the work, but with the reaction to your post I can understand if you want to go elsewhere. I can guess what you are thinking: "If they bashed me that hard for my post, what are they going to say if my work has mistakes in it?!" I could understand you being a little weary, but I would like to say most of the time in this forum people are very nice and generous about reviewing work. They will give good feedback. I'm not sure what happened in this post, I can only say it seems to be uncharacteristic of this forum.

[reph]

I love it when writers come in at the end of their ropes just to find other writers pointing to misspellings and grammatical problems in their posts as reasons for being rejected by editors and agents. Nothing like getting bashed at your lowest point for something that you took little time and care in writing.
It's not bashing. See Birol's post above. If cwilliard doesn't know why the manuscript has received 70 rejections, and some of us notice that his or her post contains basic errors in writing, we have to consider that the manuscript may have them, too, and cwilliard doesn't know it. We'd be remiss if we didn't say something.

[AdamH]

I can guess what you are thinking: "If they bashed me that hard for my post, what are they going to say if my work has mistakes in it?!" I could understand you being a little weary, but I would like to say most of the time in this forum people are very nice and generous about reviewing work. They will give good feedback. I'm not sure what happened in this post, I can only say it seems to be uncharacteristic of this forum.

We're really not that bad CWillard. Egem is right. It was odd that this post turned down the tangent it did. I can see how it started though with a simple misspelling (and I couldn't even count how many times I've misspelled THAT word! ;) ). It really started with a stab in the dark. Then snowballed into a totally different direction.

I understand how terrible it feels to be rejected...I don't think there's anyone on this board that hasn't gone through the same thing to some degree. All we offer here are suggestions and insights based on our experiences.

It's difficult to say WHY it got rejected but there's a lot of good info splattered within the posts. The critique forum is really good and really honest. It could be the query letter. It could be the novel. Heck, it may ironically turn out to be a misspelling.

Ever consider self-publishing? Sometimes that's the only way. A lot of authors made their break that way because no publisher or agent would take their chances on them. James Joyce did it, James Redfield, Mark Twain...

Did you know that Alex Haley was rejected over 400 times before getting Roots accepted?

Point being: don't fret. Persevere. If you believe it your story enough, it'll get published someday somehow.

-Adam

[SpookyWriter]

I love it when writers come in at the end of their ropes just to find other writers pointing to misspellings and grammatical problems in their posts as reasons for being rejected by editors and agents. Nothing like getting bashed at your lowest point for something that you took little time and care in writing.

Egem, I couldn't have said it better myself...thrice.

Jon

[AncientEagle]

Maybe I have a different definition of "bashing." A writer who has just been rejected for the 70th time posted a message telling others about it and at least implying a wish for suggestions. Several members stepped up and offered suggestions. Not one, as I read them, was a firm statement of "here is where you are wrong," but merely thoughtful suggestions. One idea was that perhaps careless errors of grammar, spelling, etc., might be at fault. If I, instead of CWilliard, were the one who posted the original message, I might be slightly embarrassed, maybe a little angry at myself, or possibly annoyed at the other writers for having pointed out something I consider beside the point at this time. But I'll be darned if I'd feel bashed.

If my take on this is wrong, then all I can say is, "They sure don't make bashing the way they used to."

[maestrowork]

I love it when writers come in at the end of their ropes just to find other writers pointing to misspellings and grammatical problems in their posts as reasons for being rejected by editors and agents.

Before you get on your high horse and accuse people, please re-read the posts. I believe people, including me, are only saying (without reading the ms. or queries) that spelling errors could be ONE of the problems. We are not asserting that it IS the problem. But the OP wondered what was wrong... and we told them what could be wrong.

I don't believe anyone has said "your grammar sucks and that IS your problem." They are merely "possbile problems."

I am offended that you imply that I was bashing cwillard. I was merely trying to problem solve and help, without actually reading cwillard's query or ms.

[AncientEagle]

Susan R, if I could pass, not max, just one (either Organic Chemistry, Physics, Calculus, Anatomy and Physiology) in TWO years, I believe I would find writing a bestseller a snap by comparison. Your example is inspiring.

Now pardon me while I go rewrite something again and mail it out.

[Birol]

Everyone needs to step away from this thread and take a deep breath. I do not want to see this discussion descend into name-calling and did too/did not.

I did not read any of the suggestions about spelling or grammar as a possible source of the rejections as snide, rude, flaming, bashing, or otherwise disrespectful. All of the posters were doing their best to be gentle while pointing out something that cwilliard might want to look into. I believe they were sincerely trying to help. I was attempting to reinforce that in my first post.

Jon and egem, again, I commend you for trying to defend someone you see as being in pain, which undoubtedly cwilliard is after so many rejections, but there are other many ways to offer compassion and support. Just because the other posters tried to offer some suggestions and advice, it does not mean they were unsympathetic to his/her plight. They were working on finding a solution to the situation rather than just commiserating.

Cwilliard, you have my sympathy on the number of rejections you have received. I hope you return to post here again and respond to some of the questions asked and suggestions made.

Wishing you future publishing success.

~Lori

[Jamesaritchie]

I just got my 70th rejection for two novels that I've written. I know that many will say that many great writers and books have been rejected hundreds of times before they were finally accepted. That doesn't ease my tension at all. Everyone of the 70 queries that I sent were full of hope and dreams that my hard work would be appreciated.

The process is frustrating as well. Agents want you to be meticulous and address them personaly and if you make a mistake they look down on you. When they send a reply it's often an idiotic form letter that really says nothing. I can understand that agents are busy but if they expect us to be curtious they could return the favor. I also recieved replies back that were my original query letter with words scibbled on it that are barely legible but look like "Sorry not for me" or "I'll pass".

What makes me the most angry are agents that say they are looking for new writers in all genre then reply that my story isn't for them. It's not like with market is flooded with Mafia stories. There aren't any new ones out, aside from the new Godfather novel. Also, I state in my query letter that my series is easily tranferible to a movie. Where are the good Mafia movies? I saw a preview for a new movie out the other day; In The Mix. At first I was a little excited then I learned more about the movies and realized that it has a stupid premise. Usher saves a Mob bosses life then the Mob boss make Usher his daughter's bodyguard because the gangsters are going after the bosses family. then Usher reveals that he is sleeping with the daughter. This is stupid. It isn't in any way feasible. It would never happen in real life.

I'm not saying the my novels are the next Godfather or Goodfellas. What I'm saying is that there are few if any stories that deal with this subject and fewer are realistic. It would seem that there is a market out there that is being overlooked by short sighted agents and least 70 had the answer in their hands. For two years I've waited and hoped and prayed that someone would realize this, so far to two years of disapointment.

As I said it is just so fustrating to see something that you worked so hard on and know that people would like go unappreciated and unnoticed.

How many others out there feel the same?

One thing I can point out you are doing wrong is pinting out in your query letter that your book is easily transferable to a movie. This is not a good idea in any way. First, the agent doesn't care, and neither will any editor. They're dealing with a book, not a movie. There's simply no reason at all to mention a movie in a query about a novel. It comes across poorly, at best. No one cares. Movies aren't their job, and it's number of book sales that makes a movie, not how easily "transferable" a story is.

And The Mix looks like a pretty good movie to me. Which is neither here nor there. It has nothing to do with your novel.

As for lack of Mafia novels out there, they've been done to death over the years, in both books and movies. Especially the Italian Mafia. When books of a given type aren't on the market, it's because the market doesn't want them, not because they're being overlooked. It's also the case that books and movies dealing with the Italian Mafia now catch all sorts of flak from Italian organizations, and rightly so on occasion.

And hard as it is to take, even if every agent out there wanted Mafia novels, this doesn't necessarily mean they would want your Mafia novel. When this is the case, you have figure out what you're doing wrong, not what the agent is doing wrong.

Agents are looking for novels publishers will buy and the reading public will eat. They aren't seeing this with your novel. The question is why? It sounds like no one is actually reading the entire novel, so the problem may well be your query letter. If you're spending time in the query letter mentioning how easily it can be trensferred to a movie, you're definitely doing one thing seriously wrong.

Is there any way you can post your query letter? Quite a few people here have written query letters that attracted agents and editors, and might be able to point out where you're going wrong, if you are.

[SusanR]

Susan R, if I could pass, not max, just one (either Organic Chemistry, Physics, Calculus, Anatomy and Physiology) in TWO years, I believe I would find writing a bestseller a snap by comparison. Your example is inspiring.

Now pardon me while I go rewrite something again and mail it out.

Thank you.

I'm quite romantic and old-fashioned in many ways. I believe in the power of a "calling." When young people consult me about the advisibility of a career in medicine, I tell them, "If you can imagine yourself happy in life earning your keep doing something less demanding, do so. Because medicine will take a minimum of eight years of your life, enslave you, beat you, transform you. If you really, really have to be a doctor, you won't be able to do anything else, and nothing else will do."

I also firmly believe that we can go no further than our wildest dream. There's no guarantee that we will succeed, but it is certain we won't if we don't dream it.

Finally, I am convinced that we must fully understand the odds in order to defy them. Dreams mean nothing if not measured against the grit of reality.

And all of this, of course, applies to writing.

SusanR

[maestrowork]

As for lack of Mafia novels out there, they've been done to death over the years, in both books and movies. Especially the Italian Mafia.

Could it be agents are not interested simply because there's currently no market for mafia stories? Sure, we see them once in a while in theaters, but in general, they're not very popular now. When is the last time we see a novel about the mafia? It may not matter if you're the only one who's writing it -- you need to know if there's a market for it. Time to do some research.

Still, I think it's a good idea for you to post your query (in the password-protected SYW) so we could take a look and see if it needs to be fixed.

While I'd say 70 rejections isn't all too bad, if you're frustrated with the results (I'm still unsure if you ever got any requests for partials or full), you need to change tactics. If you feel it's because it's a "mafia" book, then categorize it some other way -- ways that make it sell. Or how do you make it sound exciting -- what is your angle? What is your twist of the genre? And what makes your story pop?

Case in point, my original query made my book sound like a run-of-the-mill love story/coming of age. Not a lot of bites. After about 10 rejections, I changed my query to make it sound a intriguing, suspenseful with a central moral question. I got a lot more requests afterward.

At any rate, keep on writing and submitting. But it's probably time to workshop your query or sample chapters to make them more enticing...

[cwilliard]

First, I would like to say that I never thought that this post would attract so much attention. I was really angry when I wrote it and I didn't care about mistakes or even if it was grammatically correct. Second, I am a guy; just wanted to clear that up. After a good nights rest I have calmed down a little. I could see how many of you could look at the original post and say that its errors are indicative of my writing. They are not. As I stated, after being rejected I just reached a point were I needed to vent. Thank you to those of you that replied with helpful notions.



I did post the first chapter of my book but it was lost in the "Great Migration of 2005". It only got one reply but was positive. I will post my query soon. I believe that the Mafia is still very much a popular subject, look at the Sopranos. The reason I state in my query that the books are transferable to the movies is because some of the agents that I queried also deal in movie scripts and I am just trying to peak their interest.



I'm much more at ease now and ready for my 71st rejection. I just hope and pray for the one agent who is willing to give me a chance so I can show the rest that they let something special pass. Again I am usually a fairly good typist but I was going fast, hard, and extremely disgruntled. Thanks to all that offered suggestions and those that offered criticism.





cwilliard

Charles Williard

[SpookyWriter]

I was really angry when I wrote it and I didn't care about mistakes or even if it was grammatically correct.

I guess my first impression was correct and my second impression is "well said" -- do post the query and let us try to help where possible.

Jon

[Celia Cyanide]

Agents are looking for novels publishers will buy and the reading public will eat. They aren't seeing this with your novel. The question is why? It sounds like no one is actually reading the entire novel, so the problem may well be your query letter. If you're spending time in the query letter mentioning how easily it can be trensferred to a movie, you're definitely doing one thing seriously wrong.

Not that I don't believe you, but why would an agent be bothered by this? When a book is made into a movie, it gets a lot more attention. People hear about it more, and it sells more copies. Why would this not be considered a selling point?

[maestrowork]

Not that I don't believe you, but why would an agent be bothered by this? When a book is made into a movie, it gets a lot more attention. People hear about it more, and it sells more copies. Why would this not be considered a selling point?

The problem is EVERYONE thinks their novel would make a great movie. Agents look at "claims" like that and roll their eyes and say, "amateur! Let me be the judge, don't tell me that!"

JK Rowling didn't say, "My first novel would make a great movie." Stephen King didn't say that about Carrie. And I bet Dan Brown didn't say it either.

And another thing, if you say "my novel would make a good movie" -- the agent would probably say, "Then why don't you write a script and bypass the whole book-to-script process?"

[cwilliard]

I have posted my query letter in the Query Critique section. If you would like to take a look and offer any advise I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for all the help.



Charles

[Sage]

I'm much more at ease now and ready for my 71st rejection. I just hope and pray for the one agent who is willing to give me a chance so I can show the rest that they let something special pass.


One is all you need, but don't look at it like it'll be you 71st rejection. Make it your first acceptance :D