Limiting omnipotence and prescience

Teinz · Oct 18, 2011

Hi people,

I have two questions for you.

In my WIP, there are people, including my MC, who are able to channel Divine Essence or Power. In order to prevent them becoming omnipotent, thus negating all conflict, I need to limit their powers. But how does one confine Divinity? I thought of revulsion as a solution. The Divine Power is limitless, but its usage by mortals causes feelings of disgust and revulsion.

I thought I was afraid of spiders ( I cannot help it), but three weeks ago (I was ambushed by one of them black, hairy nightmares, lurking on the livingroom wall, ten centimeters away from my head), I found that I was not only experiencing fear, but disgust aswell. It was the disgust that made it hard for me to vacuum the monster, and it was disgust that caused the cleaner to spend the night outside. It was disgust that limited me.

And since, in my story, mortals weren't meant to use the Divine anyway, disgust seems like a good solution to my problem. How do you guys think about this? Are there other books that use the same premise?

My second problem revolves around prescience. I have a antagonist that tries to influence people in order to advance his own plans for the future. Basically he knows all possible outcomes of peoples decisions, but he doesn't know what decision people will take. So he doesn't know what will happen (effectively removing all conflict from the story again), but he sees all possibilities. Again, how do you feel about this? Maybe you know of examples in which this did, or didn't, work?

I hope you can help me.

JimmyB27 · Oct 18, 2011

Robin Hobb takes the other side of the coin with the 'Skill' magic in her Farseer books. Prolonged use of the Skill brings about a euphoria in the user, and they run the risk of losing themselves to the 'Skill river' - which is kind of the source of the magic.

Funnily enough, the same series has an example that might help with your second problem too - the Fool is a White Prophet, whose prescience is limited by the fact that he doesn't see things clearly - often only recognising the meaning of the prediction after it has occured. I believe it's hinted that he sometimes see multiple possible outcomes too.

Astronomer · Oct 18, 2011

In the real world, there will always be people who can get past any revulsion, especially with such a magnificent reward. That people are like this would, I think, make it difficult for the reader to suspend disbelief when no one in your world sucks it up and yields to the temptation to be a god.

Perhaps a physical limitation is in order? You could make it the case that people channeling the divine do so at the cost of short-circuiting their brains. Short periods of channeling now and then have no lasting effect. (Or you could make the effects cumulative, setting up an interesting climax in which the hero may not have enough brain circuits to save the day.) But the longer/more you channel, the more you risk ending up in a vegetative state.

In another interesting twist, those who do end up in a vegetative state could in fact be gods, but simply be unable to exert their god-like powers due to their fried brains.

I'll have to think about your second question a bit.

lbender · Oct 18, 2011

Why can't your channelers have limitations on which god like powers they can access, and how often. Doing something like that must be difficult and exhausting - maybe 10 minutes of channeling knocks them out for 24 hours. Different channelers, of course, have different levels of ability. Some recover more quickly. Some can access knowledge, but not the ability to destroy the world with a blink...etc.

Teinz · Oct 18, 2011

JimmyB27 said:
Robin Hobb takes the other side of the coin with the 'Skill' magic in her Farseer books. Prolonged use of the Skill brings about a euphoria in the user, and they run the risk of losing themselves to the 'Skill river' - which is kind of the source of the magic.

Interesting indeed, but alas, totally incompatible with my storyconcept.

JimmyB27 said:
Funnily enough, the same series has an example that might help with your second problem too - the Fool is a White Prophet, whose prescience is limited by the fact that he doesn't see things clearly - often only recognising the meaning of the prediction after it has occured. I believe it's hinted that he sometimes see multiple possible outcomes too.

My antagonist needs to be laser-precise in his views of the future, in order for him to get where he needs to be.

I was thinking in limiting him not only with the fact that he can't predict peoples actual decisions, but also with him only being capable of looking into futures he thinks are possible. His worldview effectively keeps him from glancing into futures he can't imagine.

JimmyB27 · Oct 18, 2011

Teinz said:
My antagonist needs to be laser-precise in his views of the future, in order for him to get where he needs to be.

I was thinking in limiting him not only with the fact that he can't predict peoples actual decisions, but also with him only being capable of looking into futures he thinks are possible. His worldview effectively keeps him from glancing into futures he can't imagine.

If he sees all possible futures, I think he's going to have to have some sort of filtering mechanism, or it'll drive him mad. Plus, take all day to see them all play out... :tongue

So, it might not be a physical limitation of the magic, but a limitation he places on himself in order to keep his sanity.

Teinz · Oct 18, 2011

JimmyB27 said:
If he sees all possible futures, I think he's going to have to have some sort of filtering mechanism, or it'll drive him mad. Plus, take all day to see them all play out...
So, it might not be a physical limitation of the magic, but a limitation he places on himself in order to keep his sanity.

Exactly! His fear of this is one of the main reasons behind his actions.

Sadly, the seer-antagonist is incapable of using the Divine, so he doesn't need limiting in that sense.

Teinz · Oct 18, 2011

Astronomer said:
In the real world, there will always be people who can get past any revulsion, especially with such a magnificent reward. That people are like this would, I think, make it difficult for the reader to suspend disbelief when no one in your world sucks it up and yields to the temptation to be a god.

Indeed, some are better at fighting the revulsion than others. This mainly has to do with the motivation behind their decision to use the Divine. If one perceives his reasons as just, he is far more likely to overcome the negative side-effects.

But getting past any revulsion? I was talking about spiders, but how would you feel if someone made you drink a "poo-and-puke-infused-milkshake" for example? Or wallow in dead peoples rotting remains? Or being forced to hurt or kill other people? I don't know if I would be able to get past any of those.

Astronomer said:
Perhaps a physical limitation is in order? You could make it the case that people channeling the divine do so at the cost of short-circuiting their brains.

I rather have the limitations on mankinds abilities, set in their minds.

Pyrephox · Oct 18, 2011

Is this an actual 'divine' power? As in, it originates from a god or divine concept? If so, then the originator of that power should act as a limiter; gods don't like to be trifled with, and presumably these people are supposed to be channeling this power to further whatever divine agenda their patron has. If so, then using their powers against that agenda - or even just not directly in service to that agenda - may result in the failure of the power...or a bolt of lightning from a clear, blue sky.

The cleverest divine channelers will learn that they want to do as much as they possibly can under their own powers, and only invoke the divine when a) they have to, and b) they're damned sure that the origin of that power will approve.

Teinz · Oct 18, 2011

Pyrephox said:
Is this an actual 'divine' power?

Yes, the power originates not in this world, or so to speak. However, there is no divine agenda.

Jimayo · Oct 18, 2011

It's simple. David Eddings did it. Using will(as it was called in his books) is the same thing as physical exertion. The power itself is limitless, but using tires you out in the same way chopping wood does. In fact if you do something that requires tremendous power, it can sap the strength from the "caster" to the point that they die.

Astronomer · Oct 18, 2011

Teinz said:
This mainly has to do with the motivation behind their decision to use the Divine. If one perceives his reasons as just, he is far more likely to overcome the negative side-effects.

Ah, that explains a lot. I was trying merely to think of a plot device to limit use of infinite power. But your approach is more from a story-telling standpoint. Story wins, every time.

But getting past any revulsion? I was talking about spiders, but how would you feel if someone made you drink a "poo-and-puke-infused-milkshake" for example?

Part of me wants to say, "Well, if you're gonna put it that way..."

But another part of me wants to say, "Have you even seen the internet?"

I rather have the limitations on mankinds abilities, set in their minds.

Which, from a story-telling perspective, is a great way to go. It sounds like you've got the beginnings of a good thing here.

jjdebenedictis · Oct 18, 2011

The human brain cannot envision infinity except as an abstract concept. It has a lot of trouble with the wave-particle duality of quantum mechanics, too.

It seems to me a human brain would slam up against the reality of the universe like a moth against a window pane.

Our brains evolved to understand reality on a certain scale, and as flexible as the human brain is, when we try to understand reality on much smaller or larger scales, we start to hit the limits of what we can comprehend.

Divinity is infinite. We are not. There's going to be a natural, biological restriction on what your characters can comprehend. At a certain point, their minds will simply reel back from what they can't encompass.

You might consider having the only people who successfully tap into these powers be those who can take a quick peek, then step back and try to translate what they glimpsed into symbols they can understand.

Infinity is okay as a concept; quantum mechanics is easier to deal with as a mathematical equation. Those who can make a mental model of reality will do better than those who try to wrestle with truth in its raw form.

DocBrown · Oct 19, 2011

Who says the Divine has to be unlimited/infinite?

Can someone weilding this power create a boulder that they then cannot move?

Give the Divine Power sensible/clever limitations and you may solve your own problems that way.

RichardFlea · Oct 19, 2011

For me your premise of revolsion as a limiting factor for a divine power does not make sense. I will try and explain what I mean;

Lets say the divine power looked like a spider and I had to pick it up to use it. If I was that afraid/revolted against spiders, I would never use the divine power, ever. If I was partially afraid, that fear would diminish each time I used the divine power. If I was not revolted at all, I have no limit. It is people in the last category that you do not want to become 'Gods' as they are not afraid or revolted by anything and they have unlimited access to the divine power. That is not the sort of world you want to live in. Even those in the middle category will progress to the last, not wanted category. You will have no 'good' Gods.

A limit for a divine power always has to be proportional to the amount of divine power used. If you use the divine power to create a spark, this should require a lot less 'whatever-stuff' than if you create a dwarf star. Otherwise, people go around creating dwarf stars willy-nilly (just cause they can or they are bored) and the whole universe falls apart.

Your current limit (revulsion) seems to diminish with use. You need something that is proportional and limited.

Anyway, just a suggestion.

As far as future prediction goes, it sounds like the Foundation series by Asimov, except they knew how to chose which probability would occur. Just as a IMHO first observation, your 'prophet' seems to have a pretty useless gift. Most people can guess what will happen depending on what someone does. Ask any football fan to predict 100 outcomes for a football match based on the different decisions that each player makes during the game and they will be able to easily do that (ie: first goal in 5th minute by Johnson who had decided to pass to Philips from the wing who decided...). It doesn't help them predict the game result any more confidently though and seems pretty pointless.

Anyway good luck with your book!

Teinz · Oct 19, 2011

Jimayo said:
It's simple. David Eddings did it. Using will(as it was called in his books) is the same thing as physical exertion.

Yeah, I read Eddings. In my opinion, his magic system is one I identify most with. But alas, he has done it already, so I want something else.

Teinz · Oct 19, 2011

Astronomer said:
But another part of me wants to say, "Have you even seen the internet?"

Some part of me wants to google it. But I'm not going to. Some things are not meant to be seen.

Teinz · Oct 19, 2011

DocBrown said:
Can someone weilding this power create a boulder that they then cannot move?

I was not planning on letting that happen.

But you're right; I need to be careful with it.

Teinz · Oct 19, 2011

RichardFlea said:
For me your premise of revolsion as a limiting factor for a divine power does not make sense. I will try and explain what I mean;

Lets say the divine power looked like a spider and I had to pick it up to use it. If I was that afraid/revolted against spiders, I would never use the divine power, ever. If I was partially afraid, that fear would diminish each time I used the divine power. If I was not revolted at all, I have no limit. It is people in the last category that you do not want to become 'Gods' as they are not afraid or revolted by anything and they have unlimited access to the divine power. That is not the sort of world you want to live in. Even those in the middle category will progress to the last, not wanted category. You will have no 'good' Gods.

A limit for a divine power always has to be proportional to the amount of divine power used. If you use the divine power to create a spark, this should require a lot less 'whatever-stuff' than if you create a dwarf star. Otherwise, people go around creating dwarf stars willy-nilly (just cause they can or they are bored) and the whole universe falls apart.

Your current limit (revulsion) seems to diminish with use. You need something that is proportional and limited.

Anyway, just a suggestion.

As far as future prediction goes, it sounds like the Foundation series by Asimov, except they knew how to chose which probability would occur. Just as a IMHO first observation, your 'prophet' seems to have a pretty useless gift. Most people can guess what will happen depending on what someone does. Ask any football fan to predict 100 outcomes for a football match based on the different decisions that each player makes during the game and they will be able to easily do that (ie: first goal in 5th minute by Johnson who had decided to pass to Philips from the wing who decided...). It doesn't help them predict the game result any more confidently though and seems pretty pointless.

Anyway good luck with your book!

I'm going to have to think on your comments for a while. Thanks.

Teinz · Oct 19, 2011

jjdebenedictis said:
The human brain cannot envision infinity except as an abstract concept. It has a lot of trouble with the wave-particle duality of quantum mechanics, too.

I cannot remember who, but someone once said: "Anyone who says they understand quantum mechanics, doesn't understand it at all."

So I'm not gonna say anything about it.

But anyway,

jjdebenedictis said:
It seems to me a human brain would slam up against the reality of the universe like a moth against a window pane.

Our brains evolved to understand reality on a certain scale, and as flexible as the human brain is, when we try to understand reality on much smaller or larger scales, we start to hit the limits of what we can comprehend.

This would also limit the the usage of the divine by humans. But even if one is limited to one's fantasy, the options are still infinite.

Limiting omnipotence and prescience

Teinz

Back at it again.

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

Astronomer

I'm an excellent poofreader.

lbender

Teinz

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JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

Teinz

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Teinz

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Pyrephox

Teinz

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Jimayo

Astronomer

I'm an excellent poofreader.

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar

DocBrown

Hopes to one day write for food.

RichardFlea

Foo!

Teinz

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Teinz

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Teinz

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Teinz

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Teinz

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