Past perfect tense, etc. - grammatical questions

[jerewrites]

I've have some questions perhaps a more experienced writer can help me with.

(1) If I am writing third person, past tense, and then I want to discuss an event which occurred before the time in which my story is unfolding, then I understand I must describe the earlier event using past perfect tense. In other words, I might write "Jim recalled that he'd visited this store once before. He had bought a pair of socks and then he'd bought some music CDs, and he'd found the sales girl in the music department quite attractive." But this constant need to use the word "had" results in a clumsy, unnatural sounding narrative. Is it improprer to simply use the word "had" once, to signal the reader, and then drop it? or is that verboten?

(2) Use of the phrases "as if it was", "as though it was", "as if it were", "as though it were". Which are proper and which are not? I am confused. For instance, I might write "The cat was stumbling along the alley as if it were drunk." Is this grammatically correct? Or "The cat was stumbling down the alley as though it were drunk." Or "The cat was stumbling down the alley as if it was drunk." Are all correct, or is there some grammatical rule that is applied?

If anyone knows the answers, I'd appreciate some help, 'cause in my revisions I keep running into these issues, and I'm not sure how to handle them.

Thanks.

[Julie Worth]

(1) Yes. Use it once or twice, then drop it.

(2) Why say as though it were drunk when you can say as though drunk?

[Andrew Jameson]

(1) I agree with Julie (and I've read the same in at least a couple other places).

(2) I agree with Julie (although I would add that you could consider some other constructions, too: "The cat stumbled drunkenly down the alley," for example, which I think has the same metaphorical feel in the case of a cat, but might not if the subject was a human).

[Ken Schneider]

Agreed, use had once or twice.

Also, you don't have to use any of those "As thoughs"

The cat stumbled down the alley like a drunken sailor, bum, bar fly.

The cat stumbled down the alley with a broken leg from the car that just hit him.

The cat stumbled along the edge of the alley like a new born on ice skates.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

[pianoman5]

(1) Yep. When referring to the past in a decent-sized chunk of narrative, you can think of 'had' as a transition word to a time tunnel that takes the reader to and from simple past. A had or two on the way in, and possibly another one or two on the way back to re-establish the actual time of the surrounding narrative.

(2) I've often wondered about 'as if' and 'as though', and every time I've looked, all my research suggests that they are interchangeable

'As though/if it were' is the subjunctive case, and it is typically used where the situation is contrary to expectation. So, 'The cat was stumbling along the alley as if it were drunk' is correct usage, wilful feline over-tippling being comparatively rare.

Some writers, in a strange example of inverted snobbery, suggest that the subjunctive is dead, or at least on its last legs, in which case 'The cat was stumbling along the alley as if it was drunk' would be acceptable. But AW types, being undiluted, no-holds-barred, full strength lexicographers would never stand for that kind of puny logic.

[jerewrites]

This is such a cool website. Thanks everybody for your guidance. I feel "as though" I've just been liberated from the land of HAD.

Jere

[maestrowork]

I agree...

(1) Use it once or twice to set up the time frame, then use past tense... Jim recalled that he'd visited this store once before. He had bought a pair of socks and some music CDs. He found the sales girl in the music department quite attractive.

(2) Use of the phrases "as if it was", "as though it was", "as if it were", "as though it were".

My understanding is that if it's something impossible/improbable, then use "it were": the cat walked as if it were floating in the air. Otherwise, use "was": the cat drank as though it was very thirsty.

I think "as if" and "as though" are interchangable, too, but can't be sure. I think there might a subtle difference. If it's something improbable -- what if -- use "as if"...

[katee]

My understanding is that if it's something impossible/improbable, then use "it were": the cat walked as if it were floating in the air. Otherwise, use "was": the cat drank as though it was very thirsty.
You're correct. "It were" is the only example of the subjunctive mood in English, which is used to indicate something unlikely/improbable.

"It was" is the 'normal' mood. Can't think of the linguistic term for it at the moment.

[Aconite]

"It were" is the only example of the subjunctive mood in English, which is used to indicate something unlikely/improbable.
It's not the only example, and the subjunctive is used for other purposes as well, such as expressing a wish: "Long live the king."

[maestrowork]

Yes, wishing is also another use: If I were a rich man; I wish I were taller. Wish you were here. But I think there's still that "improbable" thing going on here. For example, I could also say: I wish you'll have a merry Christmas.

Now, related to this subject... what about could have, would have, would have had, etc. etc. I sometimes get really confused and frustrated with those. For example, in Elton John's lyrics (Goodbye Norma Jean):

And I could have liked to have known you, but I was just a kid...

Example, if I could, I would... vs. Had I been taller, I could have reached the ledge vs. If I am late, I will call you.

Always confuses me...

[Aconite]

Yes, wishing is also another use: If I were a rich man; I wish I were taller. Wish you were here. But I think there's still that "improbable" thing going on here.
::koff koff:: So it's unlikely the king will live long? *g*


For example, in Elton John's lyrics (Goodbye Norma Jean):
Never assume lyrics are grammatically correct. Case in point:
I'm gonna love you 'til the stars fall from the sky
For you and I.

[maestrowork]

So what's the difference between Long live the King and I wish the King lives a long life?

[reph]

I could also say: I wish you'll have a merry Christmas.
That isn't grammatical. You can say "I hope you'll have..." but not "I wish you'll have..."

"I wish the King lives a long life" is incorrect, too.

Here's an ordinary example. People don't say "I wish you'll tell me what's wrong." They say "I wish you'd tell me what's wrong."

[maestrowork]

So, "I wish you'll tell me" is wrong. But "I wish you a merry Christmas" is correct.

So confusing.

[Aconite]

So, "I wish you'll tell me" is wrong. But "I wish you a merry Christmas" is correct.
Think of it as "I wish for you a merry Christmas."

[loquax]

The whole "were" thing confuses the hell out of me. "were" is for plurals... but "I were" is correct in the above examples....

Something else I thought about -

"Aren't I entitled to that?"
Swap the question and you get "I aren't entitled to that."

It should be "Am I not entitled to that?"

But even though I personally phrase questions this way (I also say "indeed" quite a lot), I'm pretty sure it's not in general use.

[Aconite]

"were" is for plurals...
And the subjunctive mood. (It's not, strictly speaking, a tense.)

"God be praised" does not equal "Be praised, God" or "God is praised" because the first be is in the subjunctive. "Long live the king" does not equal "The king lives long" or "Live long, king" for the same reason. "I wish I were taller," ditto.

The subjunctive in English is messy and uncommonly used and therefore confusing.

[maestrowork]

I wish they would do away with subjunctive.

[reph]

"I wish you a merry Christmas" has the grammatical structure of "I bring you good news" or "I got you a ticket to the game." "You" is an indirect object.

[Maryn]

Yes, wishing is also another use: If I were a rich man; I wish I were taller. Wish you were here.

Damn, all this time I've been saying, "Wish you was here." I feel so foolish...

Maryn, knowing Maestro can take a bit of ribbing--and offering a handout on the subjunctive:
---
The subjunctive mood expresses wishes, conditions that are contrary to fact, requests, or demands. It is used primarily in dependent clauses beginning with that or if. The present tense of the subjunctive uses the base form of the verb. The past tense of the subjunctive is the same as the past tense of the indicative mood except for the verb be, which uses were for all subjects.

Present:
The professor demanded that she arrive as early as possible.
It is important that children be psychologically ready for a new sibling.

Past:
He spent money as if he had infinite credit.
If the store were better located, it would attract more customers.

Because the subjunctive verb can create a rather formal tone, many speakers today have a tendency to substitute the indicative in informal situations.

Indicative: If I was a better typist, I would type my own papers.
Subjunctive: If I were a better typist, I would type my own papers.

Nevertheless, formal writing still requires the use of the subjunctive in the following kinds of dependent clauses.

1. Those expressing a wish.

I wish I were with you right now.

He wished that his mother were not reluctant to quit smoking.

2. Those beginning with if and expressing a condition that does not exist.

If the federal government were to ban the sale of tobacco, tobacco companies and distributors would suffer a great loss.

If no one were allowed to ignore the rules, language would cease to develop.

3. Those beginning with as if and as though.

He cautiously started down the trail as if he were walking on thin ice.

During the 1920s Americans speculated in Florida real estate as though it were a risk-free investment.

4. Those beginning with that and expressing a demand, request, requirement, or suggestion.

It is required that each fraternity sponsor three community service projects each semester.

Dad advised that neither of us do anything too hastily.

The job demands that the employee be in good physical condition.

--Source: The St. Martin’s Handbook, Andrea Lunsford and Robert Connors, St. Martin’s Press, 1989.

[mkcbunny]

Thank you all so much for this information. Long live the subjunctive.

["The Apostle" Author]

I have made several attempts to reply to this string, and seem to be having a problem. i appologize ahead of time if this posts, but its the only way to know for sure.

[maestrowork]

Thank you all so much for this information. Long live the subjunctive.

I couldn't have said it better. I suggest we celebrate.

["The Apostle" Author]

Perhaps devine intervention maybe a beer to many but I was going to reply, only to find that your question was answered verbatim in previous text. Either way the journey is in the story...or as my wife likes to say while I'm going through the editing process. "anyone can find mistakes and pick a story apart gramatically if they look hard enough, it takes a good story teller to make them forget the mistakes and read the book." (I think she says that to make me feel better)

[maestrowork]

You know, Apostle, I was just thinking the same thing when I was picking out some excerpt to post on my blog... I thought, wait, what if this sentence isn't quite grammatically correct... I suddenly had a panic attack and I kept looking at the thing... which had probably been edited a million times, and I still couldn't tell. I just hope that my storytelling is strong enough that my readers would forget the mistakes, if there are any...

[AncientEagle]

Damn, all this time I've been saying, "Wish you was here."

I were too.

["The Apostle" Author]

Not an issue for me, I am actually going to second print with corrections....a comedy of errors between me and my publisher resulting in the final edit not making the first printing. Oh well we live and we learn. As stated many friends and family have been (helpfull) in pointing them out to me. All have asked for aditional copies....I stand by the the power of the story as the most powerfull of a writers tools.

[Good Word]

So Apostle, what have you written? Is it called "The Apostle?" Is it published? I know someone who published a book called Acts of the Apostles. I'm pretty sure he isn't you, because I know how he writes, but...

["The Apostle" Author]

My book is called "The Apostle" its an action thriller with a bit of a twist. You can find it on amazon.com Barnes and Noble, Walmart...but you would be better served to look it up under my name Roy Thornton, since the search engine drops the, the and just looks for Apostle, which will give you about 8000 hits. Go figure.
I see you are anxiously awaiting your release date. Good luck. It is an interesting ride and there is no better feekling than getting that first royalty check... I still have mine, since it wouldn't even have covered my celabratory steak. The second has long since been relagated to the bank. I am working another project whenever I have the time and I'm not doing this. Have you started another?

["The Apostle" Author]

It apears I have confused two different people on the posting. Funny how that happens when the kids are running around the wife is vacuming and you just got back from wrestling with one of the brood. Oh and did I mention I might have had a beer. Corporate America and the American dream dictate.

[Good Word]

That's okay. Actually, I am anxiously awaiting my release date.

Leavenworth sucks.

[Good Word]

Only kidding. I live at home--my home. :)

But I am anxiously awaiting my release date. I just have to finish the first draft, rewrite it, rewrite it, rewrite it some more, and find an agent who will hopefully find me a publisher.


I just crack myself up sometimes.

["The Apostle" Author]

When and what title? If its the right genre I'll be one of your first customers

[Good Word]

Hah. Sort of a thriller, with a dose of current events satire.

[MacAllister]

Hah. Don't let her fool you. She writes economics texts.

[maestrowork]

I write checks.

[mkcbunny]

I could use abouut $400, if you're in the writing mode.

["The Apostle" Author]

Yeah I learned a lot the first time around. The book I am working on now has more mileage the a 63 Impalla. I was so secrative about the first that i didn't show it to nearly as many people as I should have before publishing. As stated above or somewhere out there I am published and re-editing for the next printing.

[maestrowork]

I could use abouut $400, if you're in the writing mode.

I have writer's block.

["The Apostle" Author]

Gotta drop till I surf again

[Good Word]

Maestro, when you tell people that, why do you always leave out the word bad? I hate when you do that. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

And don't believe a word Mac says, she's drinks Red Bull, fer Chrissake.

Roy, there's a pretty good thread her on the humor board called WPR--weekly progress report--where people set goals and post how they're faring. It helps me set goals and write.

I do not (ahem) write economic textbooks, (Mac, don't make me come over there) btw, although I was a tech writer for many years. Now I am a freelance/contract editor, and almost-novelist.

I look forward to checking out your book, Roy.

[jerewrites]

I started this thead with a very simple grammatical query. The responses show me how much our forum members care about the quality of their writing. I'm starting to feel privileged just to be a member, and I'm not bein' a smartass. I am afraid the subjunctive is here to stay. So I will use it as required.

Again, thanks for the avalanche of responses. At what other forum would I receive such fine counsel?

Ciao, Jere

["The Apostle" Author]

I'll check it out. Thanks for the tip.