Nit-picky particular (that's fun to say!)

[Perks]

Would you say -

an horrendous lie

or

a horrendous lie

???

I typed 'an horrendous lie' but Word grammar-check doesn't like it. It just sounds wrong to my ear to say it the other way. What do you think?

[scribbler1382]

Hmmm....good question. Not sure what's right, but if it were me typing, I'd probably go with "a horrendous lie".

[Tish Davidson]

I'd go with a horrendous lie because the "h" sound is pronounced, not dropped. You wouldn't say "an horrid child" and horrendous is similar.

[Valona]

"A" would be appropriate if the following word began with a vowel. In this case, even though the consonnent is unsounded, "AN" is still appropriate.

[Perks]

I found this online in a column called "Mind Our English"


...responding to Mahid Masseluang’s article on “Usage of ‘a’ and ‘an’” (May 28), and would like to add that according to Wren & Martin’s High School English Grammar & Composition, on the topic of the article “an”, it is stated that:


before words beginning with h and not accented on the first syllable, “an” is often used; as, an historical novel, an hotel As I have found out in the phonetically reliable Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary, it is true that the phonetic transcription of “historical” is in fact stressed on the second syllable, same as “hotel”. Because both words are not stressed on the first syllable, “an” has to be applied. – Chow Mei Ling



So that's why I'm hearing it in my head as 'an horrendous lie' - 'horrendous' being accented on the second syllable. I guess MS Word doesn't count syllables. :)

[RubyRoo]

My Londonish accent makes me drop h's so I'd say an but when I write I write a!

[kristie911]

Saying it out loud, an just doesn't sound quite right. Reading it, I would probably process it the same whether you use an or a.

[reph]

My usage tip just last week said:
"An historian" is no more correct than "an horse." Use "a" before a word that begins with a consonant sound.

Of course, in my provincial way, I assume U.S. pronunciation. If you say "istorian" and "orse," the "an" makes sense.

[Garbarian]

yes, according to the chicago manual of style, in american english "a historian" is correct. depends i suppose where you live.

[Perks]

Yuck. I'm an American and 'a historian' sounds wrong, wrong, wrong.

[pconsidine]

This is kinda one of those evolving issues that may not have worked itself all the way out just yet. Historically, it was more common to use "an" before words that began with "h" (probably to conform to the sound of the words as spoken), but has been moving over to a more universal rule about using "a" (the one about using "an" only before words that begin with a vowel).

As is the case with many of these evolving issues, the people that learned before the change began (of which I am one) are caught in the middle. I suppose if CMS has decided the matter, it might be nearly done.

Phew.

[reph]

Yuck. I'm an American and 'a historian' sounds wrong, wrong, wrong.
Does it really sound wrong or just look wrong? For instance, do you say "He's teaching an history course"?

[three seven]

In English, it's an. God alone knows what it is in American - you took the U out of everything, so why not the N? ;)

[My-Immortal]

Would you then want to say (or write):

1) He is riding an horse.

Saying that out loud as it is written sounds wrong to me.

2) He is riding a horse.

That sounds correct to me. The same is true with:

3) He is taking a history class.

Putting an "an" in that instead --

4) He is taking an history class.

-- doesn't sound as badly as the above #1. Though if you write:

5) He is wearing an hat.

Sounds wrong and instead should be:

6) He is wearing a hat.

7) He is living in a hut.

Or:

8) He is living in an hut.

I personally like 7 better than 8.

Perhaps it has to do with the vowel that follows the letter "h" - so far only the "I" after the "H" makes the an 'sound' better.

<shrugs>

Take care all --- :)

[My-Immortal]

In English, it's an. God alone knows what it is in American - you took the U out of everything, so why not the N? ;)

Of course, if you stuck the H back into the sounds of your words you might find the N isn't needed.... :)

[three seven]

He's taking a history class, but he's writing an historical novel.

[Perks]

Does it really sound wrong or just look wrong? For instance, do you say "He's teaching an history course"?

No, of course not. But 'history' is accented on the first syllable and that seems to be the determining factor in the ear of it.

[My-Immortal]

He's taking a history class, but he's writing an historical novel.

Which one is supposed to be right and which one sounds right?

[three seven]

But 'history' is accented on the first syllable and that seems to be the determining factor in the ear of it.Precisely.
Which one is supposed to be right and which one sounds right?Both and both. That was my point.

[Perks]

In that example, I think it's correct as written. Again, I'm with that column I dug up earlier in the thread - words beginning with 'h' get 'a' when the first syllable is stressed and an 'an' when it's the second syllable that is accented.

[three seven]

Again, precisely.

[loquax]

Something I noticed - the E in "the" is an "uh" sound before a consonant and an "ee" sound before a vowel.


I never use "an" before an H word, and I'm English. If there was ever such a rule, it would not take a general usage as in "hat" and "horse". Only words like historic and hotel. Why? This is a guess, but those words derive from French, and the "h" isn't pronounced at the front of a french word.

[Avalon]

I also thought this was an English English versus an American English convention (as others have suggested, and other others have not).

In any event, just adding my two cents. My current client wants me to follow Webster's Eleventh Collegiate, and they use 'a historic' but 'an historically', per the usage notes for each entry.

Go figure.

[underthecity]

There was an episode of MASH when Hawkeye was trying to locate a harmonica for a Korean kid. For some reason he posed as Charles while talking on the phone to get one brought in. He said on the phone "I want AN HARMONICA!"

The memory always makes giggle.

allen

[reph]

He's taking a history class, but he's writing an historical novel.
Do the English, then, pronounce the first letter of "history" and not the first letter of "historical"?

[reph]

There was an episode of MASH..."I want AN HARMONICA!"
I remember that. The whole point was that "an harmonica" sounds affected.

[Perks]

Do the English, then, pronounce the first letter of "history" and not the first letter of "historical"?

depends on the Englishman, but I'll let them argue their regional accents

[loquax]

Reph, the English don't say "an" for "h". In all my eighteen years of life I've never heard anyone say it, and that includes the old toffs. I've only ever seen it written.

[My-Immortal]

Perks - congrats on 800 posts! I will offer you a hooray...

Or is it an hooray?!

Geez, now I'm going to go through the rest of the day thinking about this. What a horrible thing...an horrible thing....arrrggghhhhh.....

LOL

Take care -

[brokenfingers]

Hmmm, an horrendous looks weird to me. But then again, I'm from Brooklyn...

[loquax]

I just asked my mum and apparently my grandfather does it. There you go. He also smokes a pipe and tells war stories.

[Perks]

It's 'an hooRAY' or 'a HOOray' as far as I can tell. Well, it's better than having Holly-Jolly Christamas stuck in your head. (Even though, Burl Ives was a dear...)

[Perks]

Reph, the English don't say "an" for "h". In all my eighteen years of life I've never heard anyone say it, and that includes the old toffs. I've only ever seen it written.

But, but... three seven said... said... oh, forget it (is he an old toff, maybe?) It's hopeless. Maybe I'll just make it 'very bad lie.'

[My-Immortal]

It's 'an hooRAY' or 'a HOOray' as far as I can tell. Well, it's better than having Holly-Jolly Christamas stuck in your head. (Even though, Burl Ives was a dear...)

Hmmmm....now that you mentioned that song, I do hear it playing softly in the back of my head. Have a Holly-Jolly Christmas...it's the best time of the year....I don't know if there'll be snow...but have a cut of cheer... :)

Oh wait...could that be Have an HolLY-JolLY Christmas.... LOL (THAT sounds very wrong!)

[Perks]

Yeah, but HOL-ly is accented on the first syllable outside of song. Damn bad example. Shoulda picked Feliz Navidad.

[My-Immortal]

But, but... three seven said... said... oh, forget it (is he an old toff, maybe?) It's hopeless. Maybe I'll just make it 'very bad lie.'

How about "an ugly lie"...

a not-so-bold-faced lie...

a disgusting lie...

a rude lie

What kind of lie was it? (which should not be confused with the sentence: what kind of lay was it?) :)

Take care --

[jst5150]

It has more to do with pronounciation. Take a peek here, particularly at the boldfaced stuff:

Clarifications of English Words: a and an a (AY)
The correct choice of the “articles” a and an depends on the initial sound of a word, not on the initial letter, of the word that they precede. The letter a should be used before all words beginning with a consonant sound except silent h (an honor) and before words beginning with vowels that represent combined consonant and vowel sounds (university, unit). Examples: a boy, a European, a j, a picture, a store, a table, a bottle, a window, a phone, a hyphen,and a one-horse town.

There are also words that begin with vowels that have a consonant sound. Say “unique” aloud and you will hear that it contains in its first syllable a consonant y sound as well as the vowel oo sound. You are saying (phonetically) yoo-NEEK. Similarly, “union”, “use”, and “eulogy” begin with a consonant y sound and call for the article a. If you use your ears, you will never be guilty of “an historic” or “an unique.”

Let’s repeat and expand this concept: a is used in front of words that begin with a long u (when pronounced as yoo), eu, and ew, and before the word one. Examples: a united country, a usurper, a eulogy, a ewe, a U-boat, a European, a one-horse town, and many a one.

an (AN)
The word an should be used before all vowel sounds (a, e, i, o, u). Examples: an entry, an f, an hour, an orange, an ape, an odor, an idea, an eagle, an honor, an umbrella, and an unbeliever.

One of the most common mistakes, both written and oral, is the use of an before “historical” or “historic”. When the word following the article begins with a consonant sound, the article used is a; when it begins with a vowel sound, the article used is an.

So remember, a word may in fact begin with a consonant, yet have an initial vowel sound. The word “honest” is a case in point. Say it aloud and you will see what is meant. The initial consonant h is silent, so the word has an initial vowel sound; hence, an honest man, an hour ago, an heir to the throne, and an honorable peace; on the other hand, when a word begins with an aspirated h (a speech sound followed by a puff of breath or the speech sound represented by English h), correct usage is a hotel, a house, a hill, a hymn, and a honeycomb.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Inconsistent Articles "a" and "an"
Everyone who has a desire to improve his/her English skills should strive to develop fluency and accuracy by having access to information that presents a better understanding of the many confusing words that exist in English.

Learning about confusing words is essential to better communication.
Although there is no claim that the list shown above contains all of the words that present confusions, or potential confusionyms, that result in malapropisms; it appears to be the most extensive compilations available on the internet.

For many years, writers have written a multitude of columns about the many misuses of words that appear in newspapers, magazines, and other media. Obviously, there are many who need the guidance that is available in the files which are provided on this Word Files site.

The proper use of "a" and "an"
There is an article on the proper use of "a" and "an" in just about every usage book ever written, although apparently few native speakers of English have any difficulty with them; in fact rarely does anyone think about them in speech.

If there is any difficulty, it is to be found in writing. The basic rules are as follows: Use "a" before a consonant sound; use "an" before a vowel sound. Before a letter or an acronym or before numerals, choose "a" or "an" according to the way the letter or numeral is pronounced: an FDA directive, a United Nations' resolution, a $50.00 bill.

As we might expect, actual usage is more complex than the simple rules tend to lead us to expect. Here are some of the things that actual usage shows:

In line with the basic rule, before words with an initial consonant sound, "a" is the usual application in speech and writing.

Before "h" in an unstressed or weakly stressed syllable, "a" and "an" are both used in writing (an historic, a historic) but an is more usual in speech, whether the "h" is pronounced or not. This variation exists as a result of historical development; in unstressed and weakly stressed syllables, "h" was formerly not pronounced in many words as it is currently pronounced by many people. A few words; such as, historic and (especially in England) hotel, are in transition, and may be found with either a or an. Apparently, people may now choose the article that suits their personal pronunciation preferences with several h words.

Occasionally in modern writing and speech and regularly in the King James Version of the Bible, an is used before "h" in a stressed syllable, as in an hundred. Again, we have the same historical change: many more words were pronounced with a silent initial "h" in the past than are in the present. A few words; such as, heir, hour, and honest, generally have silent "h"; some others, like herb or humble are pronounced both ways. Use a or an according to your personal pronunciation preferences.

Before words beginning with a consonant sound but an orthographic vowel, an is sometimes used in speech and writing (an unique and such an one). This use is less frequent now than in the past.

Before words with an initial vowel sound, an is usual in speech and writing. This is in line with the basic rule.


Information in this presentation is based on statements made in
Webster's Dictionary of English Usage.

[Perks]

Well, that clears it up. <Perks, fashioning a hangman's noose> I'm all sorted out. <Perks stands on a chair> I'm so glad I brought this up...

[My-Immortal]

JST - thanks for the info, it truly is helpful.

Of course, it just sucked the fun out of the whole discussion!!! LOL (just kidding!!!!)

Take care all -

[jst5150]

Poor Perks. It's as though we loosed "Arrested Development" on her for the first time. Or "Are you Being Served?" Or even "Fawlty Towers." :-)

[My-Immortal]

Perks a him? Perks an him? Geez, now I have to go back and reread JST's whole post again... :)

[three seven]

Reph, the English don't say "an" for "h". In all my eighteen years of life I've never heard anyone say it.Yeah, I lived in Kent for a couple of years. All I can say is travel. ;)

himHer.

This is a guess, but those words derive from French, and the "h" isn't pronounced at the front of a french word.Intriguing. Maybe it's all the French 'h' words with the stress on the first syllable...

Or maybe it just doesn't f**king matter.

[Perks]

I'm not dead yet!!




(And I'm not a 'him' either. The info was helpful, but actually gave a case for both 'a horrendous' and 'an horrendous.' Although this is soon not to be an issue, as I'll be sure not to take it up with St. Peter.)

[jst5150]

The French or the vowels? :-)

I caught the 'her' part. Thanks to My-Immortal.

[three seven]

An horrendous.

[My-Immortal]

I didn't think you were a him. Or that we should sing a hymm for you either. :)

Three seven does make many valid points too - traveling is good. I love traveling when I can - and no, it probably doesn't f-ing matter...but it is fun to chat about.

Take care all -

[loquax]

Okay 3-7, that was a lie. I hear people say "an" all the time. They also lose the past tense completely, drop Ts as well as Hs, wear burberry, and knife you for 50p.

[Perks]

No problem being mistaken for a him! The purple starburst thingy isn't very specific. If you make that mistake at the AW conference, well, I'm gonna have to rethink my wardrobe or something.

Silly enough, it matters to me. I'm going to write 'an horrendous' and somewhere down the line, somebody's going to take me to task for it. It suits the line very well - boo.

And it has been a fun chat!

[Nicholas S.H.J.M Woodhouse]

only 50p? in Kent?

i'll do you two for half that

and i'll throw in some appaling burberry scarf

[Perks]

Fantastic! I've started a British civil war! I'm just like Helen of Troy... except with a grammar problem.

[three seven]

Silly enough, it matters to me. I'm going to write 'an horrendous' and somewhere down the line, somebody's going to take me to task for it.And if you write 'a horrendous', someone else is going to take you to task for it. Just write whatever reads best.

I'll do you two for half that<insert stock Carry-On punchline>

[My-Immortal]

Fantastic! I've started a British civil war! I'm just like Helen of Troy... except with a grammar problem.

But are you a Helen of Troy or an Helen of Troy? :)

I'm glad I don't have that power - having a face that would launch a thousand ships. That would just be WAY too much pressure.

Heck, I'm happy with the ability to launch a canoe without tipping it over!

Take care all --

[three seven]

Unless of course Helen actually looked like her face had been used to launch a thousand ships...

[My-Immortal]

And if you write 'a horrendous', someone else is going to take you to task for it. Just write whatever reads best.

<insert stock Carry-On punchline>

Yep. I agree with three seven (are you amazed yet?! LOL). If you let some of those little worries creep into your writing you'll never finish your WIP.

Good luck on your writing Perks.

[Nicholas S.H.J.M Woodhouse]

ooooh matron

[Perks]

Yeah, too bad it's not for my legendary beauty <snort> just my attachment to a difficult phrase.

[three seven]

Which difficult phrase was Helen of Troy attached to? Apart from 'Ow, thtop bathing my fathe againtht thethe thodding thips'...

[My-Immortal]

Slightly off topic - (but when does that really stop anyone) - but would you (women) want to be THAT beautiful? To have that power over men?

Should that be a different thread?

Just curious...

[Perks]

Which difficult phrase was Helen of Troy attached to? Apart from 'Ow, thtop bathing my fathe againtht thethe thodding thips'...

Lol!! That's great!

[reph]

'Elp! Perks is 'angin' 'erself!

'Ee-'ee.

[Ken Schneider]

He left for an hour.

He left for a hour.

The H is silent, and an works.

He road an horse.

He road a horse.

The H is not silent , and a works.

And, that always works for me.

[brokenfingers]

That's the way I've always done it.

I've always pronounced horrendous the same as I would horror or horrible.

It was an horror? It was an horrible thing?

Oh well, maybe some people pronounce it Orrendous...

[poetinahat]

Americans are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.*

If they drop the aitches and insert the N's, they're try-hards.

If they don't, they're colonial bumpkins.

Hence the expression... "Damn Yankees"?

*: I can say whatever I want. I'm an American living in Australia - been shot in both feet!

[jst5150]

And it still makes English one of the three most difficult languages to learn.

It's behind Mandarin and whatever NASCAR drivers are speaking during interviews.

[maestrowork]

A horrendous hour.

An hour of horrendousness.

[kristie911]

A horrendous hour.

An hour of horrendousness.

...reading this post. I feel as if I've stepped into a British/American war.

[Vomaxx]

This isn't a British vs. American thing. The very first entry in Fowler's Modern English Usage (1st edition, 1926) reads as follows:

"A is used before all consonants except silent h (a history, an hour); an was formerly usual before an unacceted syllable beginning with h (an historical work), but now that the h in such words is pronounced the distinction has become pedantic, & a historical should be said and written; similarly, an humble is now meaningless and undesirable. A is now usual also before vowels preceded in fact though not in appearance by the sound of y or w (a unit, a eulogy, a one)."