If Tolkien wrote this millenium, would he be as famous?

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RichardFlea

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An interesting comment came from John W (post #22) in the thread I started on 'How much sex in fantasy".

It got me thinking, if Tolkien wrote today, would he still be as famous or would he be lost under the category of Epic Fantasy and drowned out by the cool vampires of Urban fantasy and sexy vixens of romance fantasy?

Certainly his stuff is still very readable and enjoyable, but would the modern market dilute his voice? Was the reason why he became so famous not only that he was good, but he was one of the first Epic fantasy writers?

What are your thoughts?
 

MJNL

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If Thomas Edison made his first working light bulb after every house hold in America was wired for electricity, would he be famous?

Ok, not an exact analogy. But this is kind of a cart before the horse question, in my opinion.

If Tolkien was writing today, we would have a different story, because he would have had different influences.
 

Amadan

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Certainly his stuff is still very readable and enjoyable, but would the modern market dilute his voice? Was the reason why he became so famous not only that he was good, but he was one of the first Epic fantasy writers?

Like MJNL said, the modern market exists in its current form largely because of Tolkien.

Saying "Tolkien wouldn't be published today" is kind of like saying "Jane Austen or Charles Dickens wouldn't be published today." Sure they would, but they wouldn't write the same novels today they wrote in the 19th century.

Also, Tolkien wasn't one of the first Epic fantasy writers. He was just the first to become a big name in pop culture.
 

froley

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Well, we'd be unshackled from a lot of the tropes and cliches that have been milked dry over the past 50 years, and there'd be a gaping chasm in the box office records circa 2001 - 2003.

I wonder how Tolkien would react to all the urban fantasy and paranormal romance clogging the shelves of his genre?
 

leahzero

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I wonder how Tolkien would react to all the urban fantasy and paranormal romance clogging the shelves of his genre?

"Clogging" is unfair. Urban fantasy and paranormal romance have chiseled out their own nooks and don't compete for readers with epic fantasy. Besides, epic fantasy doesn't have carte blanche over the entire fantasy genre. They're all subgenres, and none can claim being the umbrella genre.
 

mccardey

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An interesting comment came from John W (post #22) in the thread I started on 'How much sex in fantasy".

It got me thinking, if Tolkien wrote today, would he still be as famous or would he be lost under the category of Epic Fantasy and drowned out by the cool vampires of Urban fantasy and sexy vixens of romance fantasy?

Certainly his stuff is still very readable and enjoyable, but would the modern market dilute his voice? Was the reason why he became so famous not only that he was good, but he was one of the first Epic fantasy writers?

What are your thoughts?

Hmmm...

I think it would depend a lot on what he was writing.
 
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Ian Isaro

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If Tolkien wrote this millennium...
...he would have grown up in a completely different environment.
...he would not have lived through WWII.
...his themes of industrialization would be utterly changed.
...he couldn't have mirrored his races on the world since views of those have changed.
...he would be writing in an entirely different fantasy genre.

I'd be interested in Tolkien writing this millennium because I have no idea what he'd be writing.
 

RobJ

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I thought it was common knowledge that Tolkien was reincarnated and came back as Stephenie Meyer.
 

bearilou

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People reading and giving one star reviews on Amazon would say "the book's decent enough. but if you want really good fantasy read GRRM and RJ!" Lord knows that gets said often enough about other books.

/justaweebitbitter
 
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People reading and giving one star reviews on Amazon would say "the book's decent enough. but if you want really good fantasy read GRRM and RJ!" Lord knows that gets said often enough about other books.

/justaweebitbitter
Or if they were like me, they would grizzle about wasting two weeks ploughing through 180 pages of LotR and wondering when the bloody story starts. I've read shopping lists that are more interesting than that book. Nothing. Happens.

Well, apart from a bunch of creatures diddling around the countryside, singing occasionally and stopping for a meal here and there.

Fascinating.
 

bearilou

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Or if they were like me, they would grizzle about wasting two weeks ploughing through 180 pages of LotR and wondering when the bloody story starts. I've read shopping lists that are more interesting than that book. Nothing. Happens.

Well, apart from a bunch of creatures diddling around the countryside, singing occasionally and stopping for a meal here and there.

Fascinating.

That was my complaint. I've had two independent people tell me to skip the first part with the hobbits and go straight to Tom Bombadil and that it picks up from there.

I just can't seem to get back to it. I have far too much else on my reading plate and it's kind of low on the list of priorities at the moment.
 

lvae

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Echoing and paraphrasing what everyone else has said - context really does influence a book. Also, if there is one thing I've learnt over the years at AW, is that timing is of utmost importance :)
 
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That was my complaint. I've had two independent people tell me to skip the first part with the hobbits and go straight to Tom Bombadil and that it picks up from there.

I just can't seem to get back to it. I have far too much else on my reading plate and it's kind of low on the list of priorities at the moment.
Tom Bleeding Bombadil was where I gave up.

In a masochistic kind of way, I'm determined not to let this book beat me. I'm of a mind to order a copy from Amazon and read it just so I can say I have.
 

Psychomacologist

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Tom Bleeding Bombadil was where I gave up.

In a masochistic kind of way, I'm determined not to let this book beat me. I'm of a mind to order a copy from Amazon and read it just so I can say I have.
I hated Tom Bombadil. I think I skimmed that part.

The Two Towers was my favourite part. It seemed to be the middle point between the boring beginning and the end, which morphed into some sort of bizarre Hobbit-shaped Jesus allegory.
 

ChaosTitan

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"Clogging" is unfair. Urban fantasy and paranormal romance have chiseled out their own nooks and don't compete for readers with epic fantasy. Besides, epic fantasy doesn't have carte blanche over the entire fantasy genre. They're all subgenres, and none can claim being the umbrella genre.

Thank you, and amen.
 

Rachel Udin

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If Thomas Edison made his first working light bulb after every house hold in America was wired for electricity, would he be famous?

Ok, not an exact analogy. But this is kind of a cart before the horse question, in my opinion.

If Tolkien was writing today, we would have a different story, because he would have had different influences.

Sorry, but Thomas Edison didn't *invent* the lightbulb. That's a farce of the American school system. He was just very good at *marketing* it. More than half of the patents he had were *bought* from other people or he simply hired people who were able to do it for him under his company.

The two major components that made it possible, were the Canadians (the chamber) and one African American (the bamboo filament before the modern version that made it last long enough to go to market), who don't get credit. When he couldn't patent, then he stole by trying to claim his version was better. And then famously said, "If I didn't invent the Lightbulb, I invented nothing." Which is true--he didn't invent anything. He had his team of scientists do it for him.

See a similar story on the telephone.

Invent... nope. Marketing, yes.

If Tolkien wrote this millennium...
...he would have grown up in a completely different environment.
...he would not have lived through WWII.
...his themes of industrialization would be utterly changed.
...he couldn't have mirrored his races on the world since views of those have changed.
...he would be writing in an entirely different fantasy genre.

I'd be interested in Tolkien writing this millennium because I have no idea what he'd be writing.
I also think his writing style would have suffered under the new rules. He tended to be wordy. He'd not have CS Lewis to kick him around too. He used to have Best Friend envy from what I heard.

He thought he and CS Lewis were best buds. He was kind of the stereotypical old professor type, steady and slow, while CS Lewis was the hare. CS Lewis considered himself to have a best bud every week.

Lewis left behind a bunch of Christian writing as well, but not very many author notes. I'd think he'd be the improviser type though, from his personality. Total rough draft that would piss off the group, then he'd settle down and refine over and over.

Thus to get Tolkien, you need to make some zombies/walking skeletons that can talk. A writer needs friends to get the writing the way it is.

I thought it was common knowledge that Tolkien was reincarnated and came back as Stephenie Meyer.

Totally different writing styles. Tolkien was what one would call an Outliner. Linear forwards with the occasional milestone. Stephanie Meyer, from what I've read is an out of order improviser, with a few minor milestones, about no planning.

Tolkien is writing today, under the name of GRRMartin...
Similar writing styles, yes. (Also took Tolkien forever to finish anything. He's also back up and when it wasn't perfect he'd erase stuff).

But GRRMartin is barely writing fantasy.

I think Tolkien would run into not being suitable enough for today's market. He might have a bit of trouble with the economics, and his races would be shredded to peaces (genetics would play in his mind since Darwin really kicked in after he started writing the books). The war motif probably would go towards a terrorism plot instead. Also, I've heard reports of Tea time not being a big deal in England anymore, except with the Queen Mum. This would hurt the Hobbitssssessssss. His writing style is also out of fashion as well. (His son isn't as good a writer.... whose also tried to go solo.)

He might also get kicked for not properly diversifying his cast base so that women were stronger represented in the stories rather than pawns for the men. (The LoTR movie tried to fix this to some extent through Eowyn and extending the main love story so Arwen wasn't so unlikable and plastic.)

We're already shredding his world building... and suggesting things like polyandry dwarves.

Also Brandon Sanderson would be out of a job, since he followed Tolkien and Jordan. Poor Colbert wouldn't get as many geek jokes in either with the role playing, etc. And Stewart too.

But really, Tolkien wrote more than epic fantasy, it's just that people don't read the non-hobbit stuff. Generally, I like that better because I think the prose is tighter.
 
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MJNL

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Mind reading what I wrote instead of what you think I wrote?

Sorry, feeling snarky today...
 

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But really, Tolkien wrote more than epic fantasy, it's just that people don't read the non-hobbit stuff.

Rachel, stop just asserting opinion as fact.

Tolkien is still widely read as a scholar.

He created the definitive edition of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Still in print, still the one scholars cite.

He created the definitive edition of the Fight at Finnsburgh.
Still in print, still the one scholars cite.

Tolkien's the authority on West Mercian; he created the definitive word list. Still in print, still cited. There's been a single emendation; that's it.

His translations of SGGK and Sir Orfeo are the most widely used poetic translations, and still in print and still being licensed for anthologies and textbooks.

His essay "The Monsters and the Critics" is still driving Beowulf criticism today, still reprinted and anthologized—with a new scholarly edition of the essay already sold out and reprinted in a second edition.
 

rugcat

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Or if they were like me, they would grizzle about wasting two weeks ploughing through 180 pages of LotR and wondering when the bloody story starts. I've read shopping lists that are more interesting than that book. Nothing. Happens.

Well, apart from a bunch of creatures diddling around the countryside, singing occasionally and stopping for a meal here and there.

Fascinating.
Yes, Tolkein can be difficult for the video game generation.
 
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Yes, Tolkein can be difficult for the video game generation.
As opposed to the patronise-35-year-old-women generation?

Look, I didn't like the book. Deal with it. Maybe in a slightly less condescending tone next time, mmmkay?
 

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Or if they were like me, they would grizzle about wasting two weeks ploughing through 180 pages of LotR and wondering when the bloody story starts. I've read shopping lists that are more interesting than that book. Nothing. Happens.

Well, apart from a bunch of creatures diddling around the countryside, singing occasionally and stopping for a meal here and there.

Fascinating.
Therein lies one big aspect.

I recently re-read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.

There's not a chance that novel would make it past the first hurdle if sent out to agents today. not a chance.
 
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