How much 'sex' should a fantasy novel have?

RichardFlea · Sep 22, 2011

Hopefully this post will not outrage the moderators (and I am happy to have it removed if it does), but I have an innoccent question;

Should a fantasy novel have sex in it at all? If so, how much, how often and/or how explicit?

I am not after examples here or any details on 'sex' but rather peoples thoughts on the idea of sex and how they treat it in their main stream fantasy writing.

From my limited understanding of the US (American) Market (which I understand is one of the largest?), sex is still reasonably taboo. From reading my favorite best selling authors from last millenium (Tolkien, Fiest, Eddings, Assimov, Clark, etc...) sex is not in them at all. But this is a new millenium!

Currently I am writing a novel and it cuts out before the sex scene, but still has the main characters disrobe. Should I cut it out earlier and not even have them disrobing? Should I go further after disrobing, because someone told me sex sells.

Would love your thoughts. Please keep it clean!

robertbevan · Sep 22, 2011

more than your target audience is getting. ha! i kid.

geardrops · Sep 22, 2011

RichardFlea said:
Should a fantasy novel have sex in it at all? If so, how much, how often and/or how explicit?

Sex in a story should either expand character or advance the story. If it does neither and is only there for titillation, then it is erotica. So write as much as the story needs, no more, no less.

And last I heard sex is not taboo in the US market. What would make you think that?

ETA: Clarification, I have no problem with erotica, just sounds like that's not what the OP wants to be writing.

robertbevan · Sep 22, 2011

just go with what's natural in your work. if you still question it, have someone take a look at it.

if a graphic description of an orgy feels out of place in the context of the rest of your story, don't put it in there.

if it fits, then let me read your story please.

KellyAssauer · Sep 22, 2011

Sex sells cars, magazines, clothing, shaving cream... but good writing sells books, Perhaps one of the reasons everyone enjoys "Tolkien, Fiest, Eddings, Assimov, Clark, etc..." is because we can all talk about them without blushing? So yes, write what's important to the story, but write to the audience that you want to be talking about your books.

RichardFlea · Sep 22, 2011

Good advice! I like your posts so far! Thank you all very much.

And as a quick answer to a previous post, no, the WIP is not meant to be erotica or titilating.

I do have a rape in the book that I have not written about yet, but I think that will be in a different setting/handled differently. Even though it is an important part of the story, I am going to leave it out and just reference it occuring in past tense, as I do not want to sensationalize or glorify it. That is not far on those who have experienced such things first hand.

I like the question suggested; 'Would Tolkien put it in?' I think I will use that question to myself in future.

Thanks once more!

mpack · Sep 22, 2011

As much as the story needs; no more, no less. If the scene contributes to setting, character, or plot then include it. If not, then don't. If you prefer to leave the scene relatively "PG", that's a matter of taste and depends on the sort of story you're writing and the target audience. Sex is part of the human condition, and there is nothing wrong with including it in a story.

RichardFlea said:
From my limited understanding of the US (American) Market (which I understand is one of the largest?), sex is still reasonably taboo. From reading my favorite best selling authors from last millenium (Tolkien, Fiest, Eddings, Assimov, Clark, etc...) sex is not in them at all. But this is a new millenium!

Novels by George Martin, Stephen Donaldson, Jacqueline Carey, and Patrick Rothfuss all include sex scenes of varying degrees of description.

Anne Lyle · Sep 22, 2011

RichardFlea said:
I like the question suggested; 'Would Tolkien put it in?' I think I will use that question to myself in future.

Tolkien wrote LotR in the 1940s. He was a good Catholic boy. Hence no sex.

Write what you want and feel comfortable with - it will find an audience somewhere. As has been said, does it move the story forward and/or contribute to characterisation? If the answer is no, then I would "fade to black" as soon as you have made whatever point you intended by the fact of these characters having sex together.

For example, in my own book I have a scene where one of the characters wakes up in the night worrying about something and talks it over with his partner. In the middle of the scene they have sex, but I couldn't really cut it without the scene becoming too fragmented so I kept it "soft focus" - no anatomical details, just a brief paragraph of description. I think it adds to characterisation by showing the nature of their relationship and thus the reason for the PoV's motivation, without distracting the reader with erotica

In another scene, the hero gets the opportunity to have casual, no-strings-attached sex with a couple of attractive girls, but the point of the scene is his decision to do this, not the sex itself. I therefore cut at the point where they start to disrobe. More than that would have been gratuitous, IMHO.

Don't add it just because "sex sells" - I don't think it does in fantasy. Good writing, great plots and awesome world-building sell.

Ian Isaro · Sep 23, 2011

Loads of it. If a few pages go by without a graphic description of sex or at least genitalia I start to lose interest.

(It is hopefully clear I jest.)

You might want to expand your reading outside of Tolkien if your goal is to get a sense for modern markets. Thinking of the big names, Steven Erikson and Brandon Sanderson always "fade to black" and avoid direct sex (despite writing very different kinds of fantasy). George RR Martin and Joe Abercrombie have it in considerable detail. Patrick Rothfuss (in his second book, anyway) is probably somewhere in the middle.

Mr Flibble · Sep 23, 2011

As previous posters have said, there's everything from none, through fade to black, soft focus, quite graphic right on up to 'they did what!!!'. And beyond...

As with any scene, make sure it's integral and necessary to the story. Also make sure it fits the tone of the rest of the book. If the rest of the book is sweet and innocent in tone, you don't want there to suddenly be a down and dirty group bonk graphically described, with added squelching and a goat. On the other hand, if you're writing a gritty realistic portrayal, a chaste kiss might seem a bit of a wimp out. Don't make the scene anachronistic to the rest of your book.

Will you upset people? Possibly. We all have our 'squick, I ain't reading that!' buttons. But you can't worry about that too much. (well, you may wish to refrain from graphic bestiality/necrophilia...) Someone else maybe get upset the sex isn't graphic enough.

So write what you think fits. Even if it stretches your comfort levels (or especially if it does, perhaps) then get betas to read it and see if it works. Same as any other scene/element.

D.M.Drake · Sep 23, 2011

I uh.. I allude to it. Poetically speaking I hint at it while never actually getting into 'messy' details. Betas love it so far, it 'evokes excitement' while 'leaving details to the imagination.' Keep in mind I am not published, I am only telling you what my betas think and hoping in some way it helps you.

Good luck!

Broadswordbabe · Sep 23, 2011

IdiotsRUs said:
with added squelching and a goat.

Somehow, I feel I need that on a t-shirt. Possibly not mine, though.

I would agree with the previous posters; don't worry about what sells, do worry about what works for your story. I think Ann and Ian both made good points, though; you are writing for a current audience, not for the one Tolkien was writing for. Also, you're you, you're not Tolkien. Only he could be him, and only you can be you. You need to work out what works for you and the audience you're going for; and exploring contemporary fantasy will give you an idea of what's currently considered acceptable (which, as others have said, is pretty wide and various).

Good luck!

RainyDayNinja · Sep 23, 2011

IdiotsRUs said:
Will you upset people? Possibly. We all have our 'squick, I ain't reading that!' buttons. But you can't worry about that too much. Someone else maybe get upset the sex isn't graphic enough.

That's true, but I think there are likely to be a lot more people turned off by graphic sex than will be turned off by the sex not being graphic enough. So I would err on the side of discretion, unless something happens in the act of sex itself that is critical to the plot or characterization, which is pretty rare IMO (Snow Crash is the only example that comes to mind).

Psychomacologist · Sep 23, 2011

If you're hoping to get it published, I say read modern, recently-published books from your genre and see how much sex they contain. Urban Fantasy, for example, seems to have a lot of sex, often quite graphically described.

Apart from that, the advice to do what works for you and your story is sound. Find a style of sex-scene that fits your novel's voice, and make sure it's in character for your... characters.

ChaosTitan · Sep 23, 2011

RichardFlea said:
HFrom reading my favorite best selling authors from last millenium (Tolkien, Fiest, Eddings, Assimov, Clark, etc...) sex is not in them at all. But this is a new millenium!

If you want to write something to sell in today's market, you need to pick up half a dozen fantasy novels that have been released in the last year or two. Others in the thread have named a few popular authors.

The standards of fantasy published sixty years ago is quite different from that of today, in terms of length, style, content and allowances (for such things as swearing and sex).

In general, though, sex scenes can be as explicit or as "fade to black" as you want them to be, as long as the scene helps move the story along.

Nakhlasmoke · Sep 23, 2011

It also depends on the kind of fantasy you're writing...

Certain things that will be perfectly in keeping with the tone of a modern literary fantasy are going to feel out of place in an Edding's type sword and sorcery.

I actually hate the advice to write what's comfortable for you, I prefer it when I write something uncomfortable that pushes me to places I don't want to go/things I don't want to confront. But hey, we're all different.

Anne Lyle · Sep 23, 2011

I guess it depends on whether you feel comfortable reading it out loud - I would suggest not putting graphic sex in Chapter One if not!

(I'm doing my first author reading next weekend, so these things are sharp in my mind right now...)

lauralam · Sep 23, 2011

This is timely for me as well...I'm about to write a sex scene in my novel, and have been agonising over how explicit to be. I'll likely go soft focus as well, as the characters have a lot of history and that can be shown by how well they still know each other's bodies and desires, without being gratuitous.

Anne Lyle · Sep 23, 2011

Exactly - there's a whole range of ways you can show sex in fiction. The important thing is to choose the right one for the story.

ULTRAGOTHA · Sep 23, 2011

How much sex should a fantasy novel have? None. There is no requirement to put sex in a fantasy novel.

That said there's also nothing to keep sex out of a fantasy novel if, as is said so many times above, it's part of your story.

Sex that's there just for the sex is off putting. As is magic that's just there for the magic, murder just there for the murder, stew that's just there for the stew.

But if your story has sex, magic, murder and stew because that's part of the story, then go for it. Don't worry how much is too much.

Mr Flibble · Sep 23, 2011

Nakhlasmoke said:
I actually hate the advice to write what's comfortable for you, I prefer it when I write something uncomfortable that pushes me to places I don't want to go/things I don't want to confront. But hey, we're all different.

Me too

There is a lot of sex in modern fantasy. A LOT. That doesn't mean you have to put it in (or that any of it needs to be there as such...but that's another discussion) if you don;t feel the story warrants it.

John_W · Sep 23, 2011

RichardFlea said:
I am not after examples here or any details on 'sex' but rather peoples thoughts on the idea of sex and how they treat it in their main stream fantasy writing.

From my limited understanding of the US (American) Market (which I understand is one of the largest?), sex is still reasonably taboo. From reading my favorite best selling authors from last millenium (Tolkien, Fiest, Eddings, Assimov, Clark, etc...) sex is not in them at all. But this is a new millenium!

I just wanted to address this concern directly. Asimov, Eddings, Clarke and Tolkien are dead. The market was multifaceted even in their time (pulp Fantasies and pulp SciFis were common), and now there really isn't one way to write mainstream speculative fiction or Fantasy in particular. You said you didn't want examples, but examples are warranted. George R.R. Martin doesn't write like Patrick Rothfuss, who doesn't write like Neil Gaiman, who doesn't write like China Mieville. Sex is absolutely common in mainstream fiction and Fantasy fiction. It's handled plainly by Mieville and probably handled to excess by Martin. You can demur from sexuality if you want to, as Rothfuss did in his first novel. But you're not obligated to handle it any one specific way.

Now you asked for our thoughts on how it should be handled. My thoughts are very specific: give me something different. The overwhelming majority of sex in fiction is garbage, both because it's written out for titillation and because it's so damned similar. Authors who have any sort of original approach to sex, just like an original approach to pretty much anything, get huge points from me. I'm thinking James Clavell's all-dialogue sex scenes, or Ethan Coen in The Gates of Eden deliberately reaching for the most uncomfortable and inappropriate metaphors possible. Beyond the plain rules of "however much is appropriate" or "what fits the characters," the core rules are to make it distinct and worthwhile.

Anne Lyle · Sep 23, 2011

Depends what you want from your fiction - Ethan Coen and James Clavell are not SFF writers, so I wouldn't take them as models for a writer trying to produce popular epic fantasy. Unless you're trying to be clever/literary, I see no downside in writing "similar" sex scenes.

Know your genre, know what the current (not half a century old) expectations are - and then write to them or not, as you see fit. "Be in control of your material" is the only valid maxim, IMHO.

Fenika · Sep 23, 2011

If your fantasy novel is having more sex than you approve of, you may have used a too potent anthropomorphic spell on it...

Oh, is that not what you meant? *looks innocent*

Ardent Kat · Sep 23, 2011

Psychomacologist said:
Urban Fantasy, for example, seems to have a lot of sex, often quite graphically described.

I think these books would usually be labeled "paranormal romance" these days instead of "urban fantasy." Any iteration of the romance genre is obliged to have a lot of lust and sensuality in it.

How much 'sex' should a fantasy novel have?

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