Submitting a novel to an agency

[lindsayann]

Hello- I posted this before with no response, but I'll try again. I have a unique situation because my work is going to an agency and not a specific agent. A reader is going to read it and if it's good, pass it on to an agent that best fits the genre. I asked what format it should be submitted in and they said, "standard novel format" is fine. Any thoughts?

[jules]

Sounds reasonably normal to me, but then I've yet to submit to an agent.

There are a number of posts on the Learn Writing With Uncle Jim thread that address submissions and manuscript formatting; that's probably a good place to start.

[maestrowork]

Actually there were responses before the board went down... There have been many discussions on the board about standard manuscript formats. A good place to start is do a search on "manuscript formatting" or some such.

Or let me try to summarize as succinctly as possible: Courier 12pt, left justified, 1" margin, 25 lines per page, double-spaced, single-sided, title/name/page# in upper right corner, name/contact info on first page in upper left corner, word count on first page in upper right corner, halfway down first page: TITLE (all caps and centered) followed by byline underneath, then start your first chapter a few spaces below, start new chapter on a new page, use # for a blank line....

I'm sure I'm missing something.

[Christine N.]

Start each chapter halfway down the page. Editors like to use the space to write notes.

[blacbird]

And it is ALWAYS better to submit to a specific agent, by name, at any agency. If you don't, it is a sign you haven't done the necessary homework. In most multi-agent agencies, the mail gets sorted for the specific agents, and is only opened by them. Otherwise, it will likely get treated as junk mail, exactly what you and I do to those things that arrive at home addressed to "Occupant." I don't know about you, but I bin all of these without ever looking at them.

A similar thing can be said for the matter of a reader passing the manuscript on to the agent appropriate to the genre. I you can't specify something pertaining to the genre of the work, you'll probably get a lot of quick form rejections for your query.

Couple all of this with your question about "standard manuscript format", and, with all due respect, I think you might not be prepared to submit just yet.

caw.

[aadams73]

And I'll post the same link to you that I posted last time:

http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/manuscript_formatting.html

[Jaycinth]

Hello- I posted this before with no response, but I'll try again. I have a unique situation because my work is going to an agency and not a specific agent. A reader is going to read it and if it's good, pass it on to an agent that best fits the genre. I asked what format it should be submitted in and they said, "standard novel format" is fine. Any thoughts?

Address the submission to a specific agent. However something about what you wrote sounds suspicious SO I think you should look up the agency on P&E. If you like what you read, then I think you should also look the agency up on Writers Market,too. If they are listed on Writer's Market, then they probably have listed the various agents by name and genre. If not, then go to the agency's website and read about them, and maybe you'll find out which agent you feel will be the best person for your work.

If they don't have a website then CALL THEM and ask which agent handles your genre. Get the correct spelling of the name and if there is any question of gender, find out if the agent is a boy or a girl.

Everything Maestro said is true and rarely varies from agency to agency. Read what he said three times.

If this agency you are submitting to charges any fees...especially reading fees. Run Away Fast.

And Listen to 'Uncle Jim'. Uncle Jim loves you! Otherwise he would not take so much of his time to be helpful. It may take a few days...but read his thread!

And good luck! So proud of you having something to submit!

[lindsayann]

Thanks to everyone for responding, I really appreciate all of your feedback. Afterall, this is how we learn!

[aadams73]

Let us know how it goes, we'll be cheering for you!

[The Gorn]

Warning! submitting a manuscript to an agent through a third party sounds dangerous to me. As the work is unpublished, this party could easily have the work published as their own and leave you out in the cold. If you are going to submit a manuscript through a third party, then protect your copyrights. This can be done very easily. Just mail a copy of the manuscript to yourself as a certified letter. You will have to sign for it when it is delivered. Once you have received it stash it away and do not open it. A time indexed record is kept of all certified letters. Should a copyright issue arise, this will serve as concrete proof that the work is yours. I do not mean to suggest the third party you selected would do something so underhanded but it never hurts to be careful.

[Aconite]

Warning! submitting a manuscript to an agent through a third party sounds dangerous to me. As the work is unpublished, this party could easily have the work published as their own and leave you out in the cold. If you are going to submit a manuscript through a third party, then protect your copyrights. This can be done very easily. Just mail a copy of the manuscript to yourself as a certified letter. You will have to sign for it when it is delivered. Once you have received it stash it away and do not open it. A time indexed record is kept of all certified letters. Should a copyright issue arise, this will serve as concrete proof that the work is yours. I do not mean to suggest the third party you selected would do something so underhanded but it never hurts to be careful.
The Gorn, I'm sure your intentions are good, but your advice is not.

REVISION: I misunderstood L's original post. Gorn's right that there's a thrid party involved. My apologies.

Second, novice writers often worry that their work will be stolen and published by someone else. It's highly unlikely. While it's tempting to think that your manuscript is so brillliant that someone else would like to take credit for it, the fact is that you're an unknown writer and your manuscript is probably not so brilliant. The kind of people who would steal a manuscript are convinced their own work is much better anyway.

Third, the method of supposedly copyrighting your work that you described is called "Poor Man's Copyright," and it doesn't work. It's an urban myth. In the US, copyright exists from the moment of creation; you don't have to do anything to copyright your work. In order to be able to take advantage of all the benefits of copyright--such as suing--you need to register the copyright. A reputable publisher will do this for the author, at their own expense, when they purchase the publishing rights and after all editorial changes necessary have been made. Registering your copyright before the publishing rights to the book have been sold is one of the Dreaded Marks of the Amateur.

[victoriastrauss]

Just to emphasize what Aconite said: Theft of unpublished work is so rare as to be functionally nonexistent. A good agent won't risk his reputation by stealing. A bad agent isn't interested in your manuscript--only in the fees he can charge you. An incompetent agent couldn't sell your ms. even if he did steal it.

Of all the things writers need to worry about, theft is probably last on the list.

I have to say, though, that I find the situation--the ms. going first to a reader and only then to agents--a little odd. Let me guess: is the agency About Words?

- Victoria

[Jamesaritchie]

No one is going to steal your work. This is really just a myth. There's nothing anyone could do with your work even if they did steal it.

But why submit work to a reader who will send it to a specific agent if they like it? Why not just submit the work to an agency where an actual agent will read it first? Every reader along the way is a potential roadblock. Eliminate as many as possible. There are plenty of good agents out there, including ones at large agencies, who read the work and decide for themselves whether or not it's any good.

[Jamesaritchie]

Warning! submitting a manuscript to an agent through a third party sounds dangerous to me. As the work is unpublished, this party could easily have the work published as their own and leave you out in the cold. If you are going to submit a manuscript through a third party, then protect your copyrights. This can be done very easily. Just mail a copy of the manuscript to yourself as a certified letter. You will have to sign for it when it is delivered. Once you have received it stash it away and do not open it. A time indexed record is kept of all certified letters. Should a copyright issue arise, this will serve as concrete proof that the work is yours. I do not mean to suggest the third party you selected would do something so underhanded but it never hurts to be careful.

So what's to stop someone from mailing themselves an unsealed certified letter, and then inserting whatever they like and sealing it? Poor man's copyright doesn't work, wouldn't do you any good in court even if it did work, and is simply one of those myths that refuse to die.

If you're that worried about protecting your work, then spend the money to register it properly. But it's a needless worry. It's only already published work that gets stolen. Unpublished work isn't worth stealing because there isn't a blasted thing anyone can do with it.

Anyone who has the ability to tell a high value, bestselling manuscript from one that isn't any good also has the ability to get rich as an agent or editor. They don't need to steal.

There's a reason pro writers don't register their work before submitting it anywhere, and that reason is because there's zero danger of having it stolen.

[maestrowork]

So what's to stop someone from mailing themselves an unsealed certified letter, and then inserting whatever they like and sealing it? Poor man's copyright doesn't work, wouldn't do you any good in court even if it did work, and is simply one of those myths that refuse to die.

I think the idea is, was, to establish the proof of date. In the pre-computer days, it was hard to prove dates of creation/revision (okay, even now it's still EASY to fake computer timestamps...). So the idea was using postal stamps to establish date -- and the envelope must be sealed and stamped and unopened before it was open before a judge...

So I believe, the idea wasn't that it ESTABLISHED copyright, but rather, to prove in court "who has the earliest date of creation" in case of a dispute.

[James D. Macdonald]

Nevertheless, Poor Man's Copyright isn't real, doesn't work, and is a waste of time and money.

[jules]

the idea wasn't that it ESTABLISHED copyright, but rather, to prove in court "who has the earliest date of creation" in case of a dispute.

The problem is tht it's too easy to fake. You send yourself an empty, unsealed envelope and put your work inside it later. Instant backdated claim.

[maestrowork]

The problem is tht it's too easy to fake. You send yourself an empty, unsealed envelope and put your work inside it later. Instant backdated claim.

No, the postal seal/stamp has to be on the sealed flap... Also, I believe the post office would not deliever unsealed envelopes...

Of course, you're right, you can fake anything... even computer files. So how do we EVER prove ownership?...

[blacbird]

No, the postal seal/stamp has to be on the sealed flap... Also, I believe the post office would not deliever unsealed envelopes...

Of course, you're right, you can fake anything... even computer files. So how do we EVER prove ownership?...

First, you can unseal envelopes with a minor amount of cleverness in such a manner that it would take Sherlock Holmes to recognize they'd been unsealed. If you feel you need to prove by the postage that it contained a manuscript, mail yourself a ream of blank paper. Point is, the whole thing is a dumb idea. If you really need to prove copyright, register it the proper way.

caw.

[jules]

Unfortunately, registering copyright is not free, and as pointed out above can be seen as amateur.

I'd suggest showing the work to somebody independent (i.e. not a close friend or relative) who would be willing to come to court and state that they'd seen it on a particular date as the best way of dealing with this.

[jules]

I believe the post office would not deliever unsealed envelopes...

I've received them in the past, when a sender has forgotten to seal one properly. Of course, USPS may be better at this than Royal Mail are.

[Jamesaritchie]

No, the postal seal/stamp has to be on the sealed flap... Also, I believe the post office would not deliever unsealed envelopes...

Of course, you're right, you can fake anything... even computer files. So how do we EVER prove ownership?...

They deliver unsealed envelopes all the time. No one has the time to check for whether or not an envelope is sealed. No one seems to care. And, really, darned few envelopes are even looked at, except when the postal carrier is actually dropping them in your mailbox. Most of the work is done by machine before this. I've received many, many unsealed envelopes, and when I'm mailing certain kinds of cards and the like that I don't want damaged, I tuck in the flap and leave it unsealed intentionally. They always arrive unsealed.

This can be a problem with envelopes that have no flap that can be tucked, but with those peelable strip kind, I tear a tiny sliver of the seal at each end. This holds the flap down, but doesn't really seal the envelope. It pops open with a flick of the finger.

[Jamesaritchie]

I think the idea is, was, to establish the proof of date. In the pre-computer days, it was hard to prove dates of creation/revision (okay, even now it's still EASY to fake computer timestamps...). So the idea was using postal stamps to establish date -- and the envelope must be sealed and stamped and unopened before it was open before a judge...

So I believe, the idea wasn't that it ESTABLISHED copyright, but rather, to prove in court "who has the earliest date of creation" in case of a dispute.

All true, if you were living back before modern copyright law. Way before modern copyright law. But this hasn't been the case for a long, long time. As I understand it, the last time poor man's copyright could be used to establish anything in a court was the very early part of the twentieth century.

And as I said, even if it could be used to establish date, it would do the writer no good at all. In order to collect damages, the work must be registered. Otherwise, establishing date doesn't much matter. It might stop someone else from using your work, but it wouldn't allow you to receive any financial award, including court costs and legal fees.

The registration process is there precisely to establish date of writng in a legal, court approved manner, so the courts have zero sympathy for anyone who tries to bypass this legal protection for such long ago outdated ideas as poor man's copyright.

Poor man's copyright proves nothing, doesn't stand up in a court, and has, in fact, been used by scammers to try to prove they wrote something. It isn't just that faking it is so easy, it's primarily that proper procedure for protecting your work is written into law, and following the written law is all the courts care about.

[Jamesaritchie]

Unfortunately, registering copyright is not free, and as pointed out above can be seen as amateur.

I'd suggest showing the work to somebody independent (i.e. not a close friend or relative) who would be willing to come to court and state that they'd seen it on a particular date as the best way of dealing with this.

No, it isn't free, but it is the way the law works. And I never say to register your own work unless you're planning to self-publish, at which point it's a must do.

Showing your work to someone doesn't help, either. Unless the work is registered you cannot collect damages in court. That's just how it is.

But there's no need to worry about it simply because no one is going to steal your work. It's only after you have something published, at which point any legitimate publisher will already have registered the work, that you have to worry about plagiarism and piracy. Unpublished work is worth somewhat less than the paper it's written on. Even a Stephen King manuscript is just another manuscript once his name is removed.

Hollywood, now, there's a place you need to register and protect everything you write, though this is often as much or more for the protection of the people you're sending the work to as it is for your own protection.

Books and short stories are different. No one is going to steal them, there's nothing they could do with them if they did steal them, and face it, any agent or publisher has thousands and thousands and thousands of manuscripts pouring in on a constant basis. Stealing doesn't even cross their minds. Bonfires do, but stealing doesn't.

Just submit the work. There's zero need to worry about poor man's copyright, or about registering the work before it's published.

[maestrowork]

First, you can unseal envelopes with a minor amount of cleverness in such a manner that it would take Sherlock Holmes to recognize they'd been unsealed. If you feel you need to prove by the postage that it contained a manuscript, mail yourself a ream of blank paper. Point is, the whole thing is a dumb idea. If you really need to prove copyright, register it the proper way.

caw.

Agreed. I wasn't saying "poor man's copyright" isn't dumb and useless. I was just trying to explain how it came about.

The best way to prove copyright is of course registering it.

[maestrowork]

They deliver unsealed envelopes all the time. No one has the time to check for whether or not an envelope is sealed. No one seems to care. And, really, darned few envelopes are even looked at, except when the postal carrier is actually dropping them in your mailbox.

I don't know if I agree. Everytime I got to send a registered mail, the clerk always checked if the envelope was sealed. Remember, the method (however stupid you think it is), requires a registered mail sent to yourself...

I think it's silly for us to argue at this point. Like I said, I wasn't advocating using this method. I was just telling how it was used in the past and why people still think it works. I'm sure people used it successful "in the good old days" way before the copyright laws and procedures went into effect...

[jules]

No, it isn't free, but it is the way the law works. And I never say to register your own work unless you're planning to self-publish, at which point it's a must do.

I was responding there to blacbird, who was suggesting registration as proof of authorship.

Showing your work to someone doesn't help, either. Unless the work is registered you cannot collect damages in court. That's just how it is.

You can register retrospectively, as long as you have not allowed your work to be published. If you were to show your work to an individual and that individual were to publish it in their own name, then you could legally register your copyright and claim damages even after this had happened.
If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner. [From http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html, emphasis mine]
Even if you don't register, you can still claim "actual damages" -- i.e., compensation for any money you can reasonably justify having lost due to the infringement. Note that in many countries (e.g. the UK, where I live) this is all you can get anyway.

My point was simply that registration is not a good way of solving concerns over somebody ripping off your work in this manner. It's a waste of money, and there are simpler ways of dealing with the concern.

[blacbird]

Unfortunately, registering copyright is not free, and as pointed out above can be seen as amateur.

I'd suggest showing the work to somebody independent (i.e. not a close friend or relative) who would be willing to come to court and state that they'd seen it on a particular date as the best way of dealing with this.

So, sure, you can hire an attorney. Or be willing to pay someone's travel and lodging if they agree to go to a court appearance.

OR, you can pay the $30 or something like that to register the damn copyright.

OR, which is most appropriate, you can stop worrying about this silliness. Others have pointed out the extraordinarily remote likelihood of anything like this ever happening. James A. and I tend to disagree on a number of things around here, but he's absolutely correct in every comment about this issue, which ought to become a non-issue. Worry about your writing. If you get it to the point it's good enough to steal, an agent will gleefully take you on, and a publisher will with equal glee get your book into every major bookstore in the country. Let the bookstores worry about people stealing it.

caw.

[MasterRegal]

Hold on one second...

What about an agency that tells you to send it to a specific location, for example... William Morris Agency. Under their submission guidelines, they have an address, but it goes out to the Literary Coordinator, not a specific agent.

Here is the link
http://www.wma.com/0/dept/literary/guidelines.html

[James D. Macdonald]

When you're approaching an agency, follow their guidelines to the letter.

[Jamesaritchie]

I


Even if you don't register, you can still claim "actual damages" -- i.e., compensation for any money you can reasonably justify having lost due to the infringement. Note that in many countries (e.g. the UK, where I live) this is all you can get anyway.

.

Yes, but you have to prove you lost money, doing so is usually impossible. And even on the extremely rare case where money has been awarded, the court awards extremely low damage amounts because proving how much you lost in, well, usually impossible. You will receive no punitive damages, and punitive damages are always where the big money is. But it doesn't matter. I know the law, now show me an actual case where the law has been used to award money for unregistered fiction. And, really, I'm not aware of a single case where this has happened in the last thirty years. And I know of only one case in the last one hundred years, and that was a case of an editor who literarally lost her mind. She was caught within a week. Anyone who tried stealing your work, which no one will, would be caught almost overnight, and they all know this. But since your work isn't worth stealing, they wouldn't steal it, anyway.

Courts simply will not take you seriously. That's just how it is, however the law itself is worded.

You're simply wrong, and very silly, on every point. But let's cut to the chase. You must have reasons for your concerns, so let's see them. Show me some cases in the last thirty years where unpublished work has been stolen, and show me some actual cases in the last thirty years where the courts awarded a dime for copyright infringement on unpublished, unregistered fiction. Surely there must be a bunch of them, since you believe the courts are going to give you money, and since you think people actually steal unpublished work. So list a few cases.

Poor man's copyright is a myth, it's foolish, and really, really stupid. So is any other way of protecting your unpublished works.

Now, go all over the internet. Check with every writing organization you can find. Look at every website any pro writer, pro agent, or pro editor or commercial publisher has up, and see how many you can find that say you should use such silliness as poor man's copyright, or that you should bother with any protection, including registration, before submitting your work.

But I suppose your experience is wider than that of all the people who are actually in the business.

Like it or not, no one, anywhere, for any reason, is going to steal your unpublished fiction. Not only won't they steal it, but if you wrapped it up and gave it to them as a Christmas present, it would be in the trash can thirty seconds after they opened it. Not only is there zero chance of having your work stolen, you couldn't give it away if you tried. No one wants it, there's nothing they could do with it, and as far as anyone out there is concerned, your manuscript is just a bunch of paper you've ruined by getting ink all over it. Until and unless a commercial publisher buys the work from you, this is all your manuscript is. Just junk.

And ask yourself this. Why on earth would any agent or editor or publisher want to work with a writer who thinks they may be thieves? Life is too short to deal with such writers. Much easier, and much smarter, to just move on to the next writer who actually knows how things work.

I'd suggest you really do look up actually damages awarded by courts in such cases. Good luck. You're in for a long, long hunt before you find a single case.

I don't know where you got these ideas, but they didn't come from anyone who knows anything at all about writing and publishing.

[FolkloreFanatic]

James: I'm curious--are you referring to the incident surrounding the theft of "The Woman Who Fell From The Sky" and Joy Harjo? Just wondering.

[jules]

Don't shoot me! I was just trying to say: registering your own copyright prior to publication probably isn't sensible.

Oh well. :)

[The Gorn]

The Gorn, I'm sure your intentions are good, but your advice is not.

REVISION: I misunderstood L's original post. Gorn's right that there's a thrid party involved. My apologies.

Second, novice writers often worry that their work will be stolen and published by someone else. It's highly unlikely. While it's tempting to think that your manuscript is so brillliant that someone else would like to take credit for it, the fact is that you're an unknown writer and your manuscript is probably not so brilliant. The kind of people who would steal a manuscript are convinced their own work is much better anyway.

Third, the method of supposedly copyrighting your work that you described is called "Poor Man's Copyright," and it doesn't work. It's an urban myth. In the US, copyright exists from the moment of creation; you don't have to do anything to copyright your work. In order to be able to take advantage of all the benefits of copyright--such as suing--you need to register the copyright. A reputable publisher will do this for the author, at their own expense, when they purchase the publishing rights and after all editorial changes necessary have been made. Registering your copyright before the publishing rights to the book have been sold is one of the Dreaded Marks of the Amateur.

I think the advice I offered is good because I am speaking from experience. I once had a piece of work stolen from me by a third party and had no way to prove it. Being a novice (or aspiring author as I prefer to call it) has nothing to do with weather or not your first work will be good or bad. Look at Ben Afleck and Mat Damon. They co-wrote a screenplay together. It was their first one and they got an Oscar for it. You don't have to be an established, multi-time published author to score a best seller. Those who have been in the literary world for some time know how to spot a hit when they see one. And if one of those persons happen to be an under-handed sleeze looking to score an easy hit for themselves and they spot one of these diamonds in the rough from an unpublished author and there is no official record of copyrights, what's to stop them?
As I said above, I had a piece of work stolen from me once and had no way to prove it. After making a few phone calls and reading a few books on the subject of copyright protection, I found three options. You can let the publisher register the work for you at the copyrights and patents department of the Library of Congress or you can handle it yourself the same way or you can go with the so-called "poor mans' copyright". Certified letters are used for one reason and one reason only: to establish a legally recognized record of where and when the letter was delivered and who received it. This is only done when the party sending the letter feels there may be a need to prove in court that the letter was mailed to a specific party and was received by that party on a specific date. When you mail a manuscript to yourself in this way, it serves as concrete proof that the work is yours. If it is an urban myth, then why do people use certified letters in the first place?

[The Gorn]

1

[Aconite]

Gorn, you're missing something important here. In order to sue for copyright infringement, your work has to be registered with the copyright office. Poor Man's Copyright doesn't do that.

[MadScientistMatt]

And if one of those persons happen to be an under-handed sleeze looking to score an easy hit for themselves and they spot one of these diamonds in the rough from an unpublished author and there is no official record of copyrights, what's to stop them?

The biggest thing that is going to stop a criminal from trying to steal unpublished book-length manuscripts is that it's far too much work. We have had a few cases of stolen magazine articles and the like reported. But if you wanted to steal an unpublished novel manuscript, you would first need to find a manuscript worth stealing.

Breaking into a publisher's office and making off with the slush pile would be up there with News of the Weird style dumb criminal stories. You'd have to spend hours reading through manuscripts that were boring, cliched, or banged out by someone who is nearly illiterate in the hopes of finding one gem. Then you'd have to go about finding a publisher for it. This is nearly as hard as honest work, and probably pays worse.

Articles can be another story, but usually that theft seems to be done by dubious publishers.

If it is an urban myth, then why do people use certified letters in the first place?

They use them to establish that somebody else really did receive an important legal document or other items. Certified mail is not meant as a copyright tool.

[henriette]

a question: are computer files/records acceptable in court to prove copyright?

for example, would a file that was created 3 years before the manuscript was even sent out be proof enough? or could one show a judge their laptop and box of notebooks to prove authorship? what about files that were emailed?

i'm aware that novel thievery is an unlikely circumstance but now i am truly curious... :)

[Yaslan]

I've learned a few things after reading this thread, but I still have a burning question concerning 'theft' (as i am an amateur and quite naive to copywright laws) A lot of us here write blogs, post replies to threads etc. Can other people copy what you've written in your blogs and threads and claim it as their own?

[aghast]

I've learned a few things after reading this thread, but I still have a burning question concerning 'theft' (as i am an amateur and quite naive to copywright laws) A lot of us here write blogs, post replies to threads etc. Can other people copy what you've written in your blogs and threads and claim it as their own?

Very possible, and people also copy published work in print and a lot of times the author wont know about it. Theres no stopping people from doing what they do, I mean look at all the 'theft' going on with music swapping. Thats why you should never put your novel or anything substantial writings like stories on blogs. Most serious writers dont plagarize but may wannabes woudl

[Yaslan]

Thank you Aghast. You're right, it would be easy for someone to go to your blogs and copy and paste and no one would ever know...

[The Gorn]

Gorn, you're missing something important here. In order to sue for copyright infringement, your work has to be registered with the copyright office. Poor Man's Copyright doesn't do that.

I did a great deal of research trying to find a way to prove that the work stolen from me was indeed mine. Now, all of the research I did said that the "poor mans' copyright" was admisible in any court in the US of A. But given the responses to my last posting here, I think I'm going to do some more research. It wouldn't be the first time I learned something to be fact only to find out later that I was a fool for believing it.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif &http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Aconite]

Thats why you should never put your novel or anything substantial writings like stories on blogs.
Another reason is that many publishers would consider a work that had been posted on the Web already published, so you'd lose the ability to sell first rights to that work. Also, if the work has already been published by someone and you want to post it, you need to make sure you have the right to do so. Some contracts specify that the publisher get the exclusive right to publish, usually for a set period of time.

[Aconite]

a question: are computer files/records acceptable in court to prove copyright?
At least one lawyer who works extensively with copyright and IP issues says yes, but the answer to nearly every legal question is, "It depends."

[gomi]

You don't have to be an established, multi-time published author to score a best seller. Those who have been in the literary world for some time know how to spot a hit when they see one. And if one of those persons happen to be an under-handed sleeze looking to score an easy hit for themselves and they spot one of these diamonds in the rough from an unpublished author and there is no official record of copyrights, what's to stop them?

Yeah, and you could be hit by lightning in downtown San Francisco, too. Or, win the CA lottery. Actually, your odds are better with the latter.

The basic urban myth here is that someone might steal your work. Right. Great strokes for the ego but that's about it.

EJ

[The Gorn]

Yeah, and you could be hit by lightning in downtown San Francisco, too. Or, win the CA lottery. Actually, your odds are better with the latter.

The basic urban myth here is that someone might steal your work. Right. Great strokes for the ego but that's about it.

EJ

I've already had a piece of work stolen from me with no way to prove it. I would tell you who did it and what the work was but I don't feel like being sued for liable. Also I recently recalled another incident concerning an aunt of mine who some years ago wrote a song and mailed it to a popular singer hoping to sell it. The singer replied thanking her for the submission but said he/she could not use it. A couple of months later, that exact same song was on the radio being sung by that same singer and was a pretty fair hit. And my aunt was left out in the cold. Now, I would not presume to declare that any work I write is going to be the next number one best seller. I would certainly like it if that happened but I'm not expecting it to happen. Anyone who does would have to be the most arrogant and conseeded<(I'm sure that's not spelled right but I'm not really worried about it.)> person there is. Or they are just living on their own private planet. I sincerely doubt that William Shakespere had any allusions at all that his works would still be among the most popular of all time centuries after his death. Although I can't recall any names right now I do know for a fact that throughout human history there have been authors who went from total obscurity to the next big thing with their first book. I know the odds are against it. I'm sure the odds of dying by being hit by a meteorite while driving down a highway at 200mph and flying off of the end of an incomplete bridge and crashing into a frozen river in the middle of July in the mohave desert are better than the odds of scoring a number one best seller on your first try. But scoring a best seller on your first shot can happen. It's all a matter of handing the right piece of work to the right publisher at the right time. Just read my signature and you will understand what I mean. And I didn't make that signature just to be cute. It is a philosophy which I believe in completely.

[scribbler1382]

So, sure, you can hire an attorney. Or be willing to pay someone's travel and lodging if they agree to go to a court appearance.

OR, you can pay the $30 or something like that to register the damn copyright.

OR, which is most appropriate, you can stop worrying about this silliness. Others have pointed out the extraordinarily remote likelihood of anything like this ever happening. James A. and I tend to disagree on a number of things around here, but he's absolutely correct in every comment about this issue, which ought to become a non-issue. Worry about your writing. If you get it to the point it's good enough to steal, an agent will gleefully take you on, and a publisher will with equal glee get your book into every major bookstore in the country. Let the bookstores worry about people stealing it.

caw.

Exactly. Especially since most people worried about having something stolen haven't yet produced anything to be stolen.

[Aconite]

I've already had a piece of work stolen from me with no way to prove it. I would tell you who did it and what the work was but I don't feel like being sued for liable.
In the U.S., truth is an absolute defense against libel. Should someone seek to sue you for libel, they, being the plaintiff, would have to prove that what you said was not true, and then would have to prove that they were sustantially injured by what you said.

Also I recently recalled another incident concerning an aunt of mine who some years ago wrote a song and mailed it to a popular singer hoping to sell it. The singer replied thanking her for the submission but said he/she could not use it. A couple of months later, that exact same song was on the radio being sung by that same singer and was a pretty fair hit.
I'm sure you know that:
1) this is not the way to submit a song in hopes of selling it;
2) if this is so, your aunt should have talked with an entertainment lawyer; and
3) people tell stories like this all the time*, which--no offense intended to your aunt--makes me skeptical when I hear them.

*sometimes leaving out important details, like, "So I told George that Darth Vader oughtta be Luke's dad! And in the next movie, he was! And I never got a penny!" or, "So I modified that riff from 'Stairway to Heaven' for the chorus, and they said, 'No, thanks,' but on the next album there's this modified riff from 'StH'! Well, no, it was modified in a different way, but it was my idea."

[Donna Pudick]

From an agent to a novice writer re copyright worries: My answer, and please forgive me is, don't flatter yourself. I agree with most of the posts that tell you that no one will steal your MS. Believe me, you haven't written the Great American Novel. No one has, at least in this decade, or the last, or the one before that.

[Higgins]

Start each chapter halfway down the page. Editors like to use the space to write notes.

I can do this.

[fjeastman]

A few topical questions:

1) What agency is the OP submitting to in this manner? Some people seem to have reservations and/or think the agency may be a fee-reader. I am curious to see which agency this is so that the OP may get a little better feedback. If she IS submitting someplace she shouldn't, I'd hope the community would be able to inform her.

2) Does Uncle Jim know of any substantiated cases of a total unknown's work being stolen by a shady agent/reader/publisher and turned into a salable book, or best seller? Only theft stories that come to my mind involve new/newer authors taking parts of published works to incorporate them into their own works.

3) I would be curious to know more about The Gorn's situation. Specifics would be excellent, even if "names have been changed to protect the innocent".

--fje

[Higgins]

I think the advice I offered is good because I am speaking from experience. I once had a piece of work stolen from me by a third party and had no way to prove it. Being a novice (or aspiring author as I prefer to call it) has nothing to do with weather or not your first work will be good or bad. Look at Ben Afleck and Mat Damon. They co-wrote a screenplay together. It was their first one and they got an Oscar for it. You don't have to be an established, multi-time published author to score a best seller. Those who have been in the literary world for some time know how to spot a hit when they see one. And if one of those persons happen to be an under-handed sleeze looking to score an easy hit for themselves and they spot one of these diamonds in the rough from an unpublished author and there is no official record of copyrights, what's to stop them?
As I said above, I had a piece of work stolen from me once and had no way to prove it. After making a few phone calls and reading a few books on the subject of copyright protection, I found three options. You can let the publisher register the work for you at the copyrights and patents department of the Library of Congress or you can handle it yourself the same way or you can go with the so-called "poor mans' copyright". Certified letters are used for one reason and one reason only: to establish a legally recognized record of where and when the letter was delivered and who received it. This is only done when the party sending the letter feels there may be a need to prove in court that the letter was mailed to a specific party and was received by that party on a specific date. When you mail a manuscript to yourself in this way, it serves as concrete proof that the work is yours. If it is an urban myth, then why do people use certified letters in the first place?

It's best to be reasonably careful. The strangest things can get stollen and used.

[icerose]

Which is why if you are worried about theft, only submit to reputable places and avoid showing other people your work.

Problem solved.

In Hollywood, register everything before you send it anywhere.