Hello- I posted this before with no response, but I'll try again. I have a unique situation because my work is going to an agency and not a specific agent. A reader is going to read it and if it's good, pass it on to an agent that best fits the genre. I asked what format it should be submitted in and they said, "standard novel format" is fine. Any thoughts?
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Sounds reasonably normal to me, but then I've yet to submit to an agent.
There are a number of posts on the Learn Writing With Uncle Jim thread that address submissions and manuscript formatting; that's probably a good place to start.
There are a number of posts on the Learn Writing With Uncle Jim thread that address submissions and manuscript formatting; that's probably a good place to start.
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Actually there were responses before the board went down... There have been many discussions on the board about standard manuscript formats. A good place to start is do a search on "manuscript formatting" or some such.
Or let me try to summarize as succinctly as possible: Courier 12pt, left justified, 1" margin, 25 lines per page, double-spaced, single-sided, title/name/page# in upper right corner, name/contact info on first page in upper left corner, word count on first page in upper right corner, halfway down first page: TITLE (all caps and centered) followed by byline underneath, then start your first chapter a few spaces below, start new chapter on a new page, use # for a blank line....
I'm sure I'm missing something.
Or let me try to summarize as succinctly as possible: Courier 12pt, left justified, 1" margin, 25 lines per page, double-spaced, single-sided, title/name/page# in upper right corner, name/contact info on first page in upper left corner, word count on first page in upper right corner, halfway down first page: TITLE (all caps and centered) followed by byline underneath, then start your first chapter a few spaces below, start new chapter on a new page, use # for a blank line....
I'm sure I'm missing something.
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And it is ALWAYS better to submit to a specific agent, by name, at any agency. If you don't, it is a sign you haven't done the necessary homework. In most multi-agent agencies, the mail gets sorted for the specific agents, and is only opened by them. Otherwise, it will likely get treated as junk mail, exactly what you and I do to those things that arrive at home addressed to "Occupant." I don't know about you, but I bin all of these without ever looking at them.
A similar thing can be said for the matter of a reader passing the manuscript on to the agent appropriate to the genre. I you can't specify something pertaining to the genre of the work, you'll probably get a lot of quick form rejections for your query.
Couple all of this with your question about "standard manuscript format", and, with all due respect, I think you might not be prepared to submit just yet.
caw.
A similar thing can be said for the matter of a reader passing the manuscript on to the agent appropriate to the genre. I you can't specify something pertaining to the genre of the work, you'll probably get a lot of quick form rejections for your query.
Couple all of this with your question about "standard manuscript format", and, with all due respect, I think you might not be prepared to submit just yet.
caw.
And I'll post the same link to you that I posted last time:
http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/manuscript_formatting.html
http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/manuscript_formatting.html
lindsayann said:
Address the submission to a specific agent. However something about what you wrote sounds suspicious SO I think you should look up the agency on P&E. If you like what you read, then I think you should also look the agency up on Writers Market,too. If they are listed on Writer's Market, then they probably have listed the various agents by name and genre. If not, then go to the agency's website and read about them, and maybe you'll find out which agent you feel will be the best person for your work.
If they don't have a website then CALL THEM and ask which agent handles your genre. Get the correct spelling of the name and if there is any question of gender, find out if the agent is a boy or a girl.
Everything Maestro said is true and rarely varies from agency to agency. Read what he said three times.
If this agency you are submitting to charges any fees...especially reading fees. Run Away Fast.
And Listen to 'Uncle Jim'. Uncle Jim loves you! Otherwise he would not take so much of his time to be helpful. It may take a few days...but read his thread!
And good luck! So proud of you having something to submit!
Thanks to everyone for responding, I really appreciate all of your feedback. Afterall, this is how we learn!
Warning! submitting a manuscript to an agent through a third party sounds dangerous to me. As the work is unpublished, this party could easily have the work published as their own and leave you out in the cold. If you are going to submit a manuscript through a third party, then protect your copyrights. This can be done very easily. Just mail a copy of the manuscript to yourself as a certified letter. You will have to sign for it when it is delivered. Once you have received it stash it away and do not open it. A time indexed record is kept of all certified letters. Should a copyright issue arise, this will serve as concrete proof that the work is yours. I do not mean to suggest the third party you selected would do something so underhanded but it never hurts to be careful.
The Gorn, I'm sure your intentions are good, but your advice is not.The Gorn said:
REVISION: I misunderstood L's original post. Gorn's right that there's a thrid party involved. My apologies.
Second, novice writers often worry that their work will be stolen and published by someone else. It's highly unlikely. While it's tempting to think that your manuscript is so brillliant that someone else would like to take credit for it, the fact is that you're an unknown writer and your manuscript is probably not so brilliant. The kind of people who would steal a manuscript are convinced their own work is much better anyway.
Third, the method of supposedly copyrighting your work that you described is called "Poor Man's Copyright," and it doesn't work. It's an urban myth. In the US, copyright exists from the moment of creation; you don't have to do anything to copyright your work. In order to be able to take advantage of all the benefits of copyright--such as suing--you need to register the copyright. A reputable publisher will do this for the author, at their own expense, when they purchase the publishing rights and after all editorial changes necessary have been made. Registering your copyright before the publishing rights to the book have been sold is one of the Dreaded Marks of the Amateur.
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Just to emphasize what Aconite said: Theft of unpublished work is so rare as to be functionally nonexistent. A good agent won't risk his reputation by stealing. A bad agent isn't interested in your manuscript--only in the fees he can charge you. An incompetent agent couldn't sell your ms. even if he did steal it.
Of all the things writers need to worry about, theft is probably last on the list.
I have to say, though, that I find the situation--the ms. going first to a reader and only then to agents--a little odd. Let me guess: is the agency About Words?
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Of all the things writers need to worry about, theft is probably last on the list.
I have to say, though, that I find the situation--the ms. going first to a reader and only then to agents--a little odd. Let me guess: is the agency About Words?
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Agent
No one is going to steal your work. This is really just a myth. There's nothing anyone could do with your work even if they did steal it.
But why submit work to a reader who will send it to a specific agent if they like it? Why not just submit the work to an agency where an actual agent will read it first? Every reader along the way is a potential roadblock. Eliminate as many as possible. There are plenty of good agents out there, including ones at large agencies, who read the work and decide for themselves whether or not it's any good.
No one is going to steal your work. This is really just a myth. There's nothing anyone could do with your work even if they did steal it.
But why submit work to a reader who will send it to a specific agent if they like it? Why not just submit the work to an agency where an actual agent will read it first? Every reader along the way is a potential roadblock. Eliminate as many as possible. There are plenty of good agents out there, including ones at large agencies, who read the work and decide for themselves whether or not it's any good.
Letter
So what's to stop someone from mailing themselves an unsealed certified letter, and then inserting whatever they like and sealing it? Poor man's copyright doesn't work, wouldn't do you any good in court even if it did work, and is simply one of those myths that refuse to die.
If you're that worried about protecting your work, then spend the money to register it properly. But it's a needless worry. It's only already published work that gets stolen. Unpublished work isn't worth stealing because there isn't a blasted thing anyone can do with it.
Anyone who has the ability to tell a high value, bestselling manuscript from one that isn't any good also has the ability to get rich as an agent or editor. They don't need to steal.
There's a reason pro writers don't register their work before submitting it anywhere, and that reason is because there's zero danger of having it stolen.
The Gorn said:
So what's to stop someone from mailing themselves an unsealed certified letter, and then inserting whatever they like and sealing it? Poor man's copyright doesn't work, wouldn't do you any good in court even if it did work, and is simply one of those myths that refuse to die.
If you're that worried about protecting your work, then spend the money to register it properly. But it's a needless worry. It's only already published work that gets stolen. Unpublished work isn't worth stealing because there isn't a blasted thing anyone can do with it.
Anyone who has the ability to tell a high value, bestselling manuscript from one that isn't any good also has the ability to get rich as an agent or editor. They don't need to steal.
There's a reason pro writers don't register their work before submitting it anywhere, and that reason is because there's zero danger of having it stolen.
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Jamesaritchie said:
I think the idea is, was, to establish the proof of date. In the pre-computer days, it was hard to prove dates of creation/revision (okay, even now it's still EASY to fake computer timestamps...). So the idea was using postal stamps to establish date -- and the envelope must be sealed and stamped and unopened before it was open before a judge...
So I believe, the idea wasn't that it ESTABLISHED copyright, but rather, to prove in court "who has the earliest date of creation" in case of a dispute.
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maestrowork said:
The problem is tht it's too easy to fake. You send yourself an empty, unsealed envelope and put your work inside it later. Instant backdated claim.
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jules said:
No, the postal seal/stamp has to be on the sealed flap... Also, I believe the post office would not deliever unsealed envelopes...
Of course, you're right, you can fake anything... even computer files. So how do we EVER prove ownership?...
maestrowork said:
First, you can unseal envelopes with a minor amount of cleverness in such a manner that it would take Sherlock Holmes to recognize they'd been unsealed. If you feel you need to prove by the postage that it contained a manuscript, mail yourself a ream of blank paper. Point is, the whole thing is a dumb idea. If you really need to prove copyright, register it the proper way.
caw.
Unfortunately, registering copyright is not free, and as pointed out above can be seen as amateur.
I'd suggest showing the work to somebody independent (i.e. not a close friend or relative) who would be willing to come to court and state that they'd seen it on a particular date as the best way of dealing with this.
I'd suggest showing the work to somebody independent (i.e. not a close friend or relative) who would be willing to come to court and state that they'd seen it on a particular date as the best way of dealing with this.
maestrowork said:
I've received them in the past, when a sender has forgotten to seal one properly. Of course, USPS may be better at this than Royal Mail are.
maestrowork said:
They deliver unsealed envelopes all the time. No one has the time to check for whether or not an envelope is sealed. No one seems to care. And, really, darned few envelopes are even looked at, except when the postal carrier is actually dropping them in your mailbox. Most of the work is done by machine before this. I've received many, many unsealed envelopes, and when I'm mailing certain kinds of cards and the like that I don't want damaged, I tuck in the flap and leave it unsealed intentionally. They always arrive unsealed.
This can be a problem with envelopes that have no flap that can be tucked, but with those peelable strip kind, I tear a tiny sliver of the seal at each end. This holds the flap down, but doesn't really seal the envelope. It pops open with a flick of the finger.
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maestrowork said:
All true, if you were living back before modern copyright law. Way before modern copyright law. But this hasn't been the case for a long, long time. As I understand it, the last time poor man's copyright could be used to establish anything in a court was the very early part of the twentieth century.
And as I said, even if it could be used to establish date, it would do the writer no good at all. In order to collect damages, the work must be registered. Otherwise, establishing date doesn't much matter. It might stop someone else from using your work, but it wouldn't allow you to receive any financial award, including court costs and legal fees.
The registration process is there precisely to establish date of writng in a legal, court approved manner, so the courts have zero sympathy for anyone who tries to bypass this legal protection for such long ago outdated ideas as poor man's copyright.
Poor man's copyright proves nothing, doesn't stand up in a court, and has, in fact, been used by scammers to try to prove they wrote something. It isn't just that faking it is so easy, it's primarily that proper procedure for protecting your work is written into law, and following the written law is all the courts care about.
jules said:
No, it isn't free, but it is the way the law works. And I never say to register your own work unless you're planning to self-publish, at which point it's a must do.
Showing your work to someone doesn't help, either. Unless the work is registered you cannot collect damages in court. That's just how it is.
But there's no need to worry about it simply because no one is going to steal your work. It's only after you have something published, at which point any legitimate publisher will already have registered the work, that you have to worry about plagiarism and piracy. Unpublished work is worth somewhat less than the paper it's written on. Even a Stephen King manuscript is just another manuscript once his name is removed.
Hollywood, now, there's a place you need to register and protect everything you write, though this is often as much or more for the protection of the people you're sending the work to as it is for your own protection.
Books and short stories are different. No one is going to steal them, there's nothing they could do with them if they did steal them, and face it, any agent or publisher has thousands and thousands and thousands of manuscripts pouring in on a constant basis. Stealing doesn't even cross their minds. Bonfires do, but stealing doesn't.
Just submit the work. There's zero need to worry about poor man's copyright, or about registering the work before it's published.
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blacbird said:
Agreed. I wasn't saying "poor man's copyright" isn't dumb and useless. I was just trying to explain how it came about.
The best way to prove copyright is of course registering it.
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