"Bad Girl" MC's

Chazemataz · Aug 23, 2011

Alright, please don't stone me or call me sexist for starting this topic, but... how do you feel about YA novels that have "bad girls" as the MC's? I mean, it seems like lately we are innundated with the "shy, introspective girl" Bella Swan stereotype or the "determined sassy girl" stereotype. But what about girls who drink, smoke, have sex, do bad things?

One of my MC's are like that. She moves to a small WV town from New Jersey & takes pleasure in seducing guys and loves to drink and smokes a lot and curses like a sailor.

One of my friends said she really didn't like her, but liked the plot and every single other character. I can't decide if that's what I'm aiming at- it's a YA paranormal story about a town whose original settlers were placed under a native American curse after stealing their land and now that a spell keeping the curse at bay has expired, it's up to this group of teens descended from the settlers to figure out how to stop the curse before they all die.

I am unsure if I want to make her more sympathetic or tone her down or what. Any opinions?

JSDR · Aug 23, 2011

I have a friend who is a bad girl. I like her because I can complain about her. And, as much as she portrays herself as a bad girl, I know that deep down inside, she's .... a bad girl.

She makes no apologies for her behavior, but at least it's honest. And, she has some redeeming qualities. I like my protag to have at least one redeeming quality, and maybe a small, even subtle explanation for why they act the way they do.

I would rather have a friend who is a bad girl, but loyal. Over one who is a "good/shy/whatev" girl who is flaky.

Does that make any sense?

missesdash · Aug 23, 2011

I have a similar MC. She's really mouthy and somewhat of a trouble starter. I had good responses to her character because occasionally I show glimpses of vulnerability.

So I show what made her the way she is so that it's apparent her behavior is a defensive mechanism and I show her dropping her guard either with other people or through interiority. You can get great conflict when you have an MC who's bad ass and fiesty on the outside while her thoughts reveal that she's actually scared shitless.

In short- give them depth.

Fruitbat · Aug 23, 2011

"Evil" MCs, where I have enjoyed the book or movie, have been over-the-top, unusual and unique characters. Just being a "Bad Girl" is not outrageous enough, I would probably get annoyed and put it down. I would need to have sympathy for her, who wants to read about someone who is basically just crappy?

Now, IF Bad Girl had a sweet, conflicted inner self, heavy load from her past, something like that to explain or kind of justify her nasty attitude, that would get my sympathy. But even then, I would not be satisfied if she was not a changed and better person by the end.

Or if Bad Girl was re-cast as a secondary character, a taste of "oh no, here comes that witch again" is loads of fun.

That's my two coppers.

Chazemataz · Aug 23, 2011

She does have some good moments. She hangs out with the "geeks" at her new school and even punches a popular girl in the face for throwing something at her new friend, who is impressed that she had the guts to stand up to said popular girl. She is very upset whenever she sees bullying and rushes in to stop it.

She's also actually really grateful to everyone who is nice to her. The aunt she moves in with is pretty much her hero for how kind she is after having a semi-abusive mother and absent stepfather and she acknowledges that. She's just... kind of slutty at times, to be frank, which is why I suppose my friend didn't like her. She admits that she likes sex and stuff, which is definitely a departure from other girls in the YA paranormal drama which is filled with slut-shaming and PG-13 "one true loves". I think that's why I wrote her like that, as a sort of experiment.

JSDR · Aug 23, 2011

Fruitbat said:
Or if Bad Girl was re-cast as a secondary character, a taste of "oh no, here comes that witch again" is loads of fun.

you know, that's interesting. There's always bad girls as side-kicks or part of the group, but they never really take a lead role. I think it's because it's difficult to give them the depth they need and still maintain a bad-girl cover.

missesdash · Aug 23, 2011

Chazemataz said:
She's just... kind of slutty at times, to be frank, which is why I suppose my friend didn't like her. She admits that she likes sex and stuff, which is definitely a departure from other girls in the YA paranormal drama which is filled with slut-shaming and PG-13 "one true loves". I think that's why I wrote her like that, as a sort of experiment.

Ah yes, I had this problem as well. Mainly complaints that she was "too sexually forward."

But people aren't used to viewing teenage girls as individuals with healthy and acceptable sexual appetites. As long as she's safe (or if she isn't, there are consequences) it's not a problem. No need to write for the puritans.

amyashley · Aug 23, 2011

1) Ask you "friend" to answer some detailed questions about why they don't like her. What makes her distasteful, is she not well written? Does she not stay in character? Does she irritate and aggravate? This is really important. You made her bad for lots of reasons. Why DID you make her bad? The answers might line up with your reasons, might not. They may give you some simple things to fix.

*As an aside, is this friend a beta--as in another writer? If not, then COMPLETELY discount this opinion. File it away and move on. If yes, then proceed*

2) GET A SECOND OPINION. Never, ever, ever change stuff in your book based on one person's advice unless you know 100% it's the absolute right thing to do. Yeah, change typos. Yeah, cut that extra 300,000 adverb filled prologue. NO, don't warp a character because one reader gripes. While you are at it, get a second opinion and a third. Then consider all of them and you know what? Don't waste a single tear if you decide in the end NOT TO FOLLOW A SINGLE WORD OF ADVICE. Because while often advice is helpful and good, it might not be what your book needs. You have to think about it carefully.

3) Take some time to think. Here are the signs when you know you should change something: Doubt. Hatred of everyone who is sending comments. Anger. Denial. If any or all of those happen it's a good indication something tweaky is going on.

Smish · Aug 23, 2011

One of the reasons I love Courtney Summers' books so much is because her characters are "bad girls" (or, more accurately, they're "real").

Ashes Oh Ashes · Aug 23, 2011

Chazemataz said:
She does have some good moments. She hangs out with the "geeks" at her new school and even punches a popular girl in the face for throwing something at her new friend, who is impressed that she had the guts to stand up to said popular girl. She is very upset whenever she sees bullying and rushes in to stop it.

She's also actually really grateful to everyone who is nice to her. QUOTE]

Then she has redeeming qualities. That's the important part. Anyone who can be labeled as totally 'bad' is going to be hard to write about, because besides being unrealistic, they're hard to feel sympathy for.

Your MC sounds just fine.

DrunkenLilacs · Aug 23, 2011

missesdash said:
No need to write for the puritans.

This.

A lot of the times, you have to be brave to step out of the box. I love reading about bad girls because I'm curious about their choices. Not saying that I'm a complete virtue, but I'm definitely not what people would classify as a bad girl. Still, my current female MC is what would be considered this. It's because she feels that if she's a bitch to everyone and if she has sex without any strings (but we all know there are almost always strings), people will refuse to try to scratch the surface with her and therefore, she won't hurt them or she won't get hurt. Apart from her commitment and abadonment issues, she's also a rather bit paranoid for something very bad and illegal she did in the past. She pushes people away because she's really scared shitless about what people especially her biological mother, will think of her.

So I guess my point is: bad girls are fun--when they're deeper than just
"fuck you's" and cigarettes and getting drunk and getting laid. Making the readers sympathize with bad girls is difficult, but once you do and you find readers rooting for her to "change" it's quite a beautiful thing. Whether she's guilty/paranoid or abadoned or whatever, the sympathy factor should be there. We don't have to like your MC in the beginning, we just need to care enough about what's going to happen to her and what happened to her to make her this way.

Maybe she has sex a lot because of low self-esteem? Or searching for a male figure in her life? Or maybe she does to numb some kind of emotional pain? Either way, there are A LOT of teenage girls who go through what your MC does: about fifty to sixty percent won't admit the reasons behind their choices. And the rest of the percentage, well, maybe hey aren't damaged goods, but they act "bad" (or what people consider inappropriate for young women) because it's just a lifestyle they choose that happens to be glared down on.

One last thing: you can't satisfy every reader, but what you can do is make sure your character is satisfied with herself by the end of the book. What I mean by that is this: she should learn. I'm not saying she should transform into the perfect butterfly (unless that's what you have planned). I'm just saying that if she, let's say, likes to break people's hearts, at th end It would be nice to see her think twice after her own heart gets broken.

But yep, gotta love em bad girls.

DrunkenLilacs · Aug 23, 2011

Chazemataz said:
She does have some good moments. She hangs out with the "geeks" at her new school and even punches a popular girl in the face for throwing something at her new friend, who is impressed that she had the guts to stand up to said popular girl. She is very upset whenever she sees bullying and rushes in to stop it.

She's also actually really grateful to everyone who is nice to her. The aunt she moves in with is pretty much her hero for how kind she is after having a semi-abusive mother and absent stepfather and she acknowledges that. She's just... kind of slutty at times, to be frank, which is why I suppose my friend didn't like her. She admits that she likes sex and stuff, which is definitely a departure from other girls in the YA paranormal drama which is filled with slut-shaming and PG-13 "one true loves". I think that's why I wrote her like that, as a sort of experiment.

I would really like her and she sounds real. What people and readers fail to see sometimes, I think, is that a person who makes "bad" choices isn't necessarily a bad person. :h

missesdash · Aug 23, 2011

Just a note, because I sort of cringe when everyone mentions it- promiscuity isn't really an indicator of low self esteem. Any study on the topic basically concludes that promiscuous individuals are no more or leas likely to have low self esteem than those in monogamous relationships.

So let's not perpetuate the "she likes sex because she has low self esteem" myth. Not saying you were, just that it's not a great angle to take for anyone who was considering it.

Lydia Sharp · Aug 23, 2011

Bad girls are sexy, and sexy sells.

As was already mentioned above, though, bad girls have to have some kind of vulnerability, or their "badness" gets old really fast. This is actually true of ANY character. You have to show more than one side.

DrunkenLilacs · Aug 23, 2011

It's totally okay. I never really believed it, either, but that was basically what my friend, who fits in my parents' "bad" girl list, said. Her mother told her no one was going to sleep with her because she was a little overweight, and a week later she set out to prove her wrong. I thought she was just being rebellious, but she admitted to being self conscious anyway.

But definitely apologize if anyone who read that comment is offended -_-' gah I never enriched myself with hat study and now I'm going to look deeper into it.

Jehhillenberg · Aug 23, 2011

Chazemataz said:
Alright, please don't stone me or call me sexist for starting this topic, but... how do you feel about YA novels that have "bad girls" as the MC's? I mean, it seems like lately we are innundated with the "shy, introspective girl" Bella Swan stereotype or the "determined sassy girl" stereotype. But what about girls who drink, smoke, have sex, do bad things?

One of my MC's are like that. She moves to a small WV town from New Jersey & takes pleasure in seducing guys and loves to drink and smokes a lot and curses like a sailor.

One of my friends said she really didn't like her, but liked the plot and every single other character. I can't decide if that's what I'm aiming at- it's a YA paranormal story about a town whose original settlers were placed under a native American curse after stealing their land and now that a spell keeping the curse at bay has expired, it's up to this group of teens descended from the settlers to figure out how to stop the curse before they all die.

I am unsure if I want to make her more sympathetic or tone her down or what. Any opinions?

Fun to read. My trunked novel has a "bad girl" MC. I have no problem with it, the challenge is making her sympathetic and making the reader connect with her to understand why she does the [stupid wrong] things she does. I will rework that project one day.

All I can say is, get into her head and make the reasoning behind her actions clear to the reader. Give her vulnerabilities. What makes her appealing so, push that to the forefront to make her likable.

Switch-Phase · Aug 23, 2011

'shrugs' A bad girl MC isn't any worse than a bad boy MC.. As long as the character's well written and fits the general story, it's fine.

Even if your friend doesn't like the character, keep in mind that they may not be the market you're writing for. People like different things, and often it's a matter of how well someone connects to a character.

Just my two cents ^^

Becca C. · Aug 23, 2011

I think bad girl MCs have to care about other people to get my sympathy. If their attitude is just "fuck everyone else," it annoys me. I don't care about promiscuity, swearing, drinking, all that stuff, but they need to have things and people that they care about. I've known too many scamming, arrogant bad girls who don't give a fuck about anyone else in real life to have any sympathy for them in fiction.

DrunkenLilacs · Aug 23, 2011

Becca C. said:
I think bad girl MCs have to care about other people to get my sympathy. If their attitude is just "fuck everyone else," it annoys me. I don't care about promiscuity, swearing, drinking, all that stuff, but they need to have things and people that they care about. I've known too many scamming, arrogant bad girls who don't give a fuck about anyone else in real life to have any sympathy for them in fiction.

I think that's a really good point that's overlooked by writers who write about bad girls, and honestly, I'm guilty of not having this! Thanks for mentioning this point Becca!

inkspatters · Aug 24, 2011

Just adding another thought here -- I dislike it when it's clear that an author thinks their MC is really "bad" because they drink, or smoke, or do drugs, or have sex, or do all four. A lot of people who are the antithesis of bad do all of those things (I can think of one particular friend I had in high school...People viewed her as sort of sweet and angelic, not bad, even though she did all of those things, because she was just a really nice girl without any attitude whatsoever).

If you're writing a genuinely 'bad' character, show me how manipulative they are, how cruel they are, how unempathetic they can be. Those things are bad, not the stock behaviours listed above. And hopefully have them grow and change, or make some kind of point through that characterisation, or give them a voice so compelling and fascinating that I don't mind spending time with them even though they're cruel.

Chumala · Aug 24, 2011

Unless you make her somewhat "likeable" then I foresee a problem. Most girls who sleep around are generally unpopular or even detested by other girls. So if your girl is sleeping around which it sounds like she due to her her acts of seduction.... I'm not sure how it would turn out.

I personally don't really care one way or another if a girl sleeps around, but there are some girls who are anal about it, and since most of your readers are going to be females most likely it's a tossup whether or not this will affect the general outcome of how "likeable" your character is.

Also to the point about bad MC boys. In all honesty, boys are held to a different standard than females in this day of age, as if females expect them to sleep around as it is fairly common it seems. Therefore if Edward Cullen sleeps around it wouldn't be as bad as if.... Nancy Drew slept around.

"Did you hear that Edward slept with *insert random girl here*?" ..."Oh that girl is so lucky.. I wish Edward would sleep with me...

"

"Did you hear that Nancy slept with *insert random boy name here*?" ...."Wow... she's such a slut."

(I'm a guy also.

)

Captcha · Aug 24, 2011

I'm with inkspatters, that I don't think anything she's doing is 'bad', if all she's doing is drinking, smoking, and having sex. The smoking's a bit self-destructive, maybe, but the rest of it -- I do it, and I'm not BAD!

But someone else said 'don't write for the puritans'. Unfortunately, as a bunch of other comments have suggested -- you kind of are. Teenage girls are HUGE slut-shamers (there are obvious, glorious exceptions, of course). If they're your target market, you might be in a bit of trouble. I have no idea of the psychology behind it, but it was like that in my day, and it's like that now.

Maybe that's why bland characters like Bella Swan get so much love. They're so completely without agency that you really can't blame them for anything.

So, yeah, you might be able to make her more sympathetic if you throw some of that pop-psych 'low self-esteem' or 'past abuse' stuff in there, but I don't know if you want to do that to your character. On the other hand, if you stick with 'she has sex because she enjoys it', your market may be trickier.

Hard choice. I agree with the idea of getting another couple readers before you make it, because maybe it's not as bad as it seems.

AmyJay · Aug 24, 2011

I'm chiming in with my fondness for the so-called "bad" girls. As long as they're complex characters and not cliches or stereotypes, of course, but that's true for any type of character you write.

Also:

inkspatters said:
Just adding another thought here -- I dislike it when it's clear that an author thinks their MC is really "bad" because they drink, or smoke, or do drugs, or have sex, or do all four. A lot of people who are the antithesis of bad do all of those things (I can think of one particular friend I had in high school...People viewed her as sort of sweet and angelic, not bad, even though she did all of those things, because she was just a really nice girl without any attitude whatsoever).

I want to second (or third) this. I've done a lot of the "bad girl" things that were mentioned in this thread, but I also would've fit perfectly into the "teens without attitude" thread that's on here. And like Becca C said, there's a difference between being "bad" in your personal decisions, and treating other people badly. But since it sounds like you're talking about the former, I say go for it.

mellymel · Aug 24, 2011

I don't have time to read through everyone's comments so forgive me if my thoughts are a repeat to what's already been said. I love a bad girl. For me, the bad girl angle is always more interesting and holds my attention better. However, for me to get behind her and support her "badness" and him or her as an MC, there has to be a genuine reason behind it. I like to know what happened to her to make her tick the way she does. What she's dealt with, what she's currently dealing with, why she is the way she is. Being bad just for the sake of being bad without the why behind it is nothing more than reading about a bully and having the feeling that she is nothing more than a mean bitch and that to me isn't fun to read about. Also, if she is mean, the plot for me will be essential. I do like to see when the tables are turned on the MC or something major happens that makes the MC alter in some way. Whether it's the way she views the world or people or even herself, I like to see some sort of growth. If I spend an entire book with this bitch, by the end of it, I want to feel really good about her.

The one author I can think of off the top of my head who does the most BRILLIANT job of getting readers to route for a real bitch/bad girl is Courtney Summers in Some Girls Are and Cracked Up to Be. It amazes me how she is able to take a character that you really should hate and route for her. Also, you might want to check out Melvin Burgess' book SMACK, and also Going to Far by Jennifer Echols.

Arclight · Aug 25, 2011

I think I would like your character. So what if she drinks, smokes, and has sex? You show her as having sympathetic qualities (as you said, she's loyal and protective of her friends) and vulnerabilities, so she's not just a one-dimensional bad girl. I'd rather read about a "bad girl" who's honest about her behavior than a bland good girl who's a hypocrite or quietly judgmental of other people's behavior.

However, as Captcha says, teen girls are extremely judgmental, and they love to slut-shame. I don't know for certain, but I can guess at the reasons why - maybe it's because they have secret desires to "act out" (i.e. have sex), but they're afraid of being slut-shamed. So, they take out their frustration on girls who do have sex. It's the same dynamic with pretty girls - other girls hate them because of jealousy (a lot of the time - I'm not saying everyone feels that way, just that jealousy is the motivator for a lot of girls). I remember feeling that way. However, I often liked reading bad girl characters, because it was a wish-fulfillment fantasy for me. So, you might have trouble marketing a promiscious character to teenagers. I'd still recommend keeping your character the way she is, and not changing her because one person didn't like her. If your MC is a "bad girl" and also a fully realized character (not a stereotype), she'd be a breath of fresh air in the YA market.

"Bad Girl" MC's

I went to sleep a poet

wants moar baddassery.

You can't sit with us!

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I went to sleep a poet

wants moar baddassery.

You can't sit with us!

Stunt-Writer

Reads more than she writes.

Honest, not Harsh

Growing tipsier as we speak

Growing tipsier as we speak

You can't sit with us!

for the love of love

Growing tipsier as we speak

N/A

Growing tipsier as we speak

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