Too offensive?

sadbeautifultragic · Aug 19, 2011

Not sure if this should be in Share Your Work.

Hello everyone!

So basically my MC is in a fight and uses the slur "wetback" during the fight. He's never done anything like that before, and his family comes from another country too, but still, slurs are slurs.

Any and all input is, as always, much appreciated

missesdash · Aug 19, 2011

Ehhh to me, if someone uses a racial slur when angry, then they probably harbor some racist views. I would never ever use a racial slur because they just aren't in my vocabulary.

So to me, regardless of how mad he is, using the term "wetback" would definitely peg him as a racist. That being said, racist characters can be sympathetic if not likable. So if you really think he'd say it, maybe he's just a dick

sadbeautifultragic · Aug 19, 2011

missesdash said:
Ehhh to me, if someone uses a racial slur when angry, then they probably harbor some racist views. I would never ever use a racial slur because they just aren't in my vocabulary.

So to me, regardless of how mad he is, using the term "wetback" would definitely peg him as a racist. That being said, racist characters can be sympathetic if not likable. So if you really think he'd say it, maybe he's just a dick

Thanks for the input

so maybe he should say something like "asshole" instead of "wetback" --- ?

missesdash · Aug 19, 2011

I think the best way to look at it is by switching out for another racial slur.
Would he call a black guy a "nigger" because he's really angry?

Switching out racial slurs for the n-word is the best way to decide if it belongs.

There are plenty of other ways to attack him. His height, his appearance, his style of dress or even his intelligence. "Piece of shit" is always a good one, packs more punch than "asshole."

If he's really pissed, there's always "you fucking fuck"- one of my favorites.

Katallina · Aug 19, 2011

missesdash said:
Ehhh to me, if someone uses a racial slur when angry, then they probably harbor some racist views. I would never ever use a racial slur because they just aren't in my vocabulary.

So to me, regardless of how mad he is, using the term "wetback" would definitely peg him as a racist. That being said, racist characters can be sympathetic if not likable. So if you really think he'd say it, maybe he's just a dick

I agree with this. Plus, you might also run across people like me who are like "Huh? What the heck did that even mean??" :tongue

Then we look it up and are polluted with a word that never needed to be in our vocabulary to begin with. (Or worse, we don't look it up / recognize the context, use it for something totally else, have someone who does know what it means overhear us, unwittingly offend someone, and it causes a big mess.)

Isn't it lovely how things can snowball?

But really, that one was definitely left field. The things we come up with to insult one another will never cease to amaze me.

sadbeautifultragic · Aug 19, 2011

missesdash said:
I think the best way to look at it is by switching out for another racial slur.
Would he call a black guy a "nigger" because he's really angry?

Switching out racial slurs for the n-word is the best way to decide if it belongs.

There are plenty of other ways to attack him. His height, his appearance, his style of dress or even his intelligence. "Piece of shit" is always a good one, packs more punch than "asshole."

If he's really pissed, there's always "you fucking fuck"- one of my favorites.

Great points.

I love "you fucking fuck" --- I think I may go with that, because he's not only angry but he's frustrated, at the same time doesn't want to get too violent in front of the lady, etc.

Thanks!

sadbeautifultragic · Aug 19, 2011

Katallina said:
I agree with this. Plus, you might also run across people like me who are like "Huh? What the heck did that even mean??" Then we look it up and are polluted with a word that never needed to be in our vocabulary to begin with. (Or worse, we don't look it up / recognize the context, use it for something totally else, have someone who does know what it means overhear us, unwittingly offend someone, and it causes a big mess.)

Isn't it lovely how things can snowball? But really, that one was definitely left field. The things we come up with to insult one another will never cease to amaze me.

Definitely. I hate the term, that's why I was so hesitant to use it.

Welcome to high school in 2011 Gilroy

it's disgusting.

Thanks

I'll be going with something else.

BunnyMaz · Aug 19, 2011

strategic_tragedies said:
Thanks for the input

He's definitely not racist, he and his family are actually from a different country and are you know made fun of ._. so maybe he should say something like "asshole" instead of "wetback" --- ?

That doesn't forego racism as something he's capable of. Over here in the UK we currently have quite a few Polish people migrating. Quite a lot of the Polish migrants I have met seem to really, really dislike Romany and other travellers, and black people. And those same people have been, ironically enough, vehemently against immigrants into the UK if those immigrants are from groups they dislike. In fact, they are beginning to get a reputation for it.

shaldna · Aug 19, 2011

I think everyone can be a little bit racist, whether they want to admit to it or not. Most of us have had, at some stage or another, made judgements on people based on race or nationality. So yes, I think everyone has the potential to be racist. But whether they actually are is a different matter.

In this instance I will admit that I had no idea what the term 'wetback' meant and I had to go and look it up. If I'd read that sentance I would have had no idea it was a racist slur to be honest.

I'm not really sure how much is too much when it comes to racism, I've read books which have characters who are casually racist and it didn't really bother me because it was fitting for those characters.

In the example you used above, I think the fact that he's very not racist and then is pushed to using a word like that is a good way to show how angry he is, even if he doesn't mean the word, and it's not what he thinks, but that he was angry enough to use somethign like that.

jaksen · Aug 19, 2011

It's when we're angry and our filters are off that we are most apt to show our true character. I know that I'd look at anyone, character or person IRL, who suddenly spewed out that word when losing his temper. It would be an Ahah moment...

Ahah, thought I knew that guy, but I guess I didn't.

sadbeautifultragic · Aug 19, 2011

shaldna said:
I think everyone can be a little bit racist, whether they want to admit to it or not. Most of us have had, at some stage or another, made judgements on people based on race or nationality. So yes, I think everyone has the potential to be racist. But whether they actually are is a different matter.

In this instance I will admit that I had no idea what the term 'wetback' meant and I had to go and look it up. If I'd read that sentance I would have had no idea it was a racist slur to be honest.

I'm not really sure how much is too much when it comes to racism, I've read books which have characters who are casually racist and it didn't really bother me because it was fitting for those characters.

In the example you used above, I think the fact that he's very not racist and then is pushed to using a word like that is a good way to show how angry he is, even if he doesn't mean the word, and it's not what he thinks, but that he was angry enough to use somethign like that.

That's what I was thinking when I wrote it --- but I guess it's a subjective thing

Thanks!

sadbeautifultragic · Aug 19, 2011

jaksen said:
It's when we're angry and our filters are off that we are most apt to show our true character. I know that I'd look at anyone, character or person IRL, who suddenly spewed out that word when losing his temper. It would be an Ahah moment...

Ahah, thought I knew that guy, but I guess I didn't.

Thanks

It is definitely a subjective thing, I think. Some people will react differently obviously.

Personally I really don't like it. I think I'll be using something else. But I'm not sure yet.

Fruitbat · Aug 19, 2011

I think words in a fight are like blows. It's not the time to worry about PC. If you think it will cut them, say it.

Sullivan Lee · Aug 19, 2011

I think if race will be an issue for the character, even briefly or for a subplot, then you can use it. Will he confront his family, his beliefs, his own heritage? Will he think, I despise myself for using this word but I'm going to anyway because I think it will hurt my opponent more than anything else? If he just uses the word without any kind of introspection, though, it will color the reader's impression of him in a way you probably don't want.

Mayfield · Aug 19, 2011

Sullivan Lee said:
I think if race will be an issue for the character, even briefly or for a subplot, then you can use it. Will he confront his family, his beliefs, his own heritage? Will he think, I despise myself for using this word but I'm going to anyway because I think it will hurt my opponent more than anything else? If he just uses the word without any kind of introspection, though, it will color the reader's impression of him in a way you probably don't want.

This. I think it's completely believable for a kid who might have been picked on for his immigrant status, to want to use whatever power he might have over his opponent (someone he's fighting with). If he knows a vulnerability, he'd use it. It's not a "likable" quality, of course, but it feels real, especially if it's coming from a place of disempowerment for your character. But yes, if he doesn't reflect on it later or have some insight into the nature of what he's done by using a word like that to gain power, he would not be sympathetic in my eyes...he'd just be a racist jerk.

Just my 2 cents.

shaldna · Aug 19, 2011

To spin it around a bit - think of all times we have said things in a fight or the heat of the moment that we regret later.

I know that I have said some truly horrible things to my hubby, none of which I actually think or believe, but in the moment I wanted to hurt him and I was literally blinded by anger to the point where I had convinced myself that I believed those things.

thebloodfiend · Aug 19, 2011

I live in New Mexico. Here, he'd be deemed a huge racist and he'd probably have the shit kicked out of him. For hispanics, especially Mexicans, I'm under the impression that it's almost up there with nigger. I'd avoid it. And yes, it makes him irredeemable in my eyes if it's glazed over. If you have time to show him grow out of his racist POV, use it. But if it's a casual thing that's never addressed again, I'd go with piece of shit or you fucking piece of shit.

Of course, if a character used nigger as an insult in a contemporary novel and they were the MC that I was supposed to root for, I'd either put the book away for a while, or read on expect immediate, non preachy/anvilicious, payback. But that's just me.

I, personally, don't read for very-special-messages because I'd assume that everyone I want to associate with knows that racism isn't cool.

Either you have time to address the issue to its fullest without seeming like preachy and moralistic, or you don't. If you don't, avoid the word.

ETA: I've said some pretty bad things in my head when I'm mad, but never racial slurs. Most of them amount to bitch or fuck you or something like that.

Jehhillenberg · Aug 19, 2011

Hey strategies.

Of course that term is offensive. But this is in the context of your story, so your character might not exactly be a blatant racist, but those thoughts were always there in the back of his mind and spewed out in anger. I've read way more offensive things in novels, racial slurs and all. I think you are fine. Don't worry too much about it. If it is really bothering you and you need a lot of opinions for some kind of permission (just guessing, here) then don't put it in your story because you're uncomfortable with it. And that may or may not show in the when you work the scene.

HistoryLvr · Aug 19, 2011

I see you have a lot of options already and lots of input, but if you don't mind a bit more, maybe he could say "You fucking--" and cut it off because he wants to call him a racial slur, but he's not actually racist, so he just kinds stops dead. There are lots of other good ideas here, but I wanted to inject one more if you're still looking

Good luck!

wandergirl · Aug 19, 2011

I'm with thebloodfiend and the others. I'm from SoCal & my HS was about 80% Mexican. some of my Mexican friends did use that word, usually in a classist sense, referring to the kids of migrant workers. that was still pretty shitty. but if a non-Mexican kid used it -- oh damn. seriously, it's mega-racist. I'm glad you asked about it. there's no way to explain it away without the character's racism, overt or unconscious, becoming a big part of the story; and if it didn't become one, then people would peg the author as racist.

sadbeautifultragic · Aug 19, 2011

HistoryLvr said:
I see you have a lot of options already and lots of input, but if you don't mind a bit more, maybe he could say "You fucking--" and cut it off because he wants to call him a racial slur, but he's not actually racist, so he just kinds stops dead. There are lots of other good ideas here, but I wanted to inject one more if you're still looking Good luck!

That's a good one

and thanks!

sadbeautifultragic · Aug 19, 2011

thebloodfiend said:
I live in New Mexico. Here, he'd be deemed a huge racist and he'd probably have the shit kicked out of him. For hispanics, especially Mexicans, I'm under the impression that it's almost up there with nigger. I'd avoid it. And yes, it makes him irredeemable in my eyes if it's glazed over. If you have time to show him grow out of his racist POV, use it. But if it's a casual thing that's never addressed again, I'd go with piece of shit or you fucking piece of shit.

Of course, if a character used nigger as an insult in a contemporary novel and they were the MC that I was supposed to root for, I'd either put the book away for a while, or read on expect immediate, non preachy/anvilicious, payback. But that's just me.

I, personally, don't read for very-special-messages because I'd assume that everyone I want to associate with knows that racism isn't cool.

Either you have time to address the issue to its fullest without seeming like preachy and moralistic, or you don't. If you don't, avoid the word.

ETA: I've said some pretty bad things in my head when I'm mad, but never racial slurs. Most of them amount to bitch or fuck you or something like that.

Thanks

yeah, I think I'm going to use a different.

sadbeautifultragic · Aug 19, 2011

Thank you everyone

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be going with a different word.

Ashes Oh Ashes · Aug 19, 2011

Does the MC have friends or family that are racist? If so, then I'd believe it if he dropped a slur in anger. Without someone relatively close having such tendencies though, or him being racist, it's just not believable.

Becca C. · Aug 19, 2011

FWIW, I've never heard the term "wetback" : /

Too offensive?

sadbeautifultragic

missesdash

You can't sit with us!

sadbeautifultragic

missesdash

You can't sit with us!

Katallina

sadbeautifultragic

sadbeautifultragic

BunnyMaz

Ruining your porn since 1984

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

jaksen

Caped Codder

sadbeautifultragic

sadbeautifultragic

Fruitbat

.

Sullivan Lee

Mayfield

sleeping the sleep of the sleepless

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

thebloodfiend

Cory

Jehhillenberg

N/A

HistoryLvr

Add Salt to Taste

wandergirl

~kirsten hubbard

sadbeautifultragic

sadbeautifultragic

sadbeautifultragic

Ashes Oh Ashes

Honest, not Harsh

Becca C.