Copyrighted work - When do you transfer your rights?

MeeMee2000 · Aug 18, 2011

Hey, all!

My short story was just recently accepted in an anthology another writer is putting together. (Yay!) Like any good little writer, I copyrighted my short story before I even submitted it. Now that he is planning to publish my story, my question is: When do I tell him it's copyrighted or should I just wait until he asks about the rights?

Another question would be: Who pays to have the rights transferred? Me or the folks putting this package together?

Thanks!

Deleted member 42 · Aug 18, 2011

This is exactly why you shouldn't register copyright.

You'd better tell him now; it's a potential PITA. Were I him, I'd make you pay for a transfer, or a new copyright for the revised work.

If he's fine with one time rights, and no changes have been made/are made from the version you registered, you might get off easy with one time rights, and a used with permission.

areteus · Aug 18, 2011

As far as I am aware, whatever rights the contract asks for are automatically transferred to the publisher as soon as the contract is signed (this is why contracts are dated). There should also be a clause telling you when rights revert back to you and under what conditions.

How did you copyright it? Because as far as I am aware copyright is automatic...

J. Tanner · Aug 18, 2011

Probably means "registered the copyright" which gives you additional claims to damages should there be an infringement situation.

thothguard51 · Aug 18, 2011

You don't want to transfere rights.

What the publisher will need is a granting of rights to publish the work in whatever form you and he agree upon.

And yes, he needs to be told the story is copyrighted...ASAP

MeeMee2000 · Aug 18, 2011

Thanks for the responses! I'll let him know. We haven't signed any contracts or any thing so I certainly won't give up any rights until then. BTW, the one who said I meant to say "registered" my work with the Library of Congress is correct. Registering your work gives you more protection if someone steals your work. I would never show any one my work unless it were already protected.

J. Tanner · Aug 18, 2011

There's certainly nothing wrong with what you're doing and you're entitled to be as careful as you want to be.

That said, what you're doing is incredibly unusual in the short fiction world and highly unusual in print in general.

I've heard of some usage for screenplays and that's about it because of the huge amounts of money at play there.

So, given that everything is copyrighted by default, plagiarism is virtually non-existent among prose publishers (note distinction from end-user piracy), most consider registration of copyright entirely unnecessary.

But do what makes you comfortable and congrats on the sale.

Polenth · Aug 18, 2011

Registering your copyright for shorts before submission is the sort of thing that could turn an acceptance into a rejection. You need to tell the publisher, but be prepared that it might end badly.

Something to consider is that for most writers, obscurity is a far more likely fate than plagiarism. Adding an extra sixty locks on the front door might make it really hard to break into the house, but it's also going to be difficult for the owner to unlock the door. You have to find a balance between security and getting your work out there.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 18, 2011

Polenth said:
Registering your copyright for shorts before submission is the sort of thing that could turn an acceptance into a rejection. You need to tell the publisher, but be prepared that it might end badly.

Two places I've worked in the past decided to default to rejection for such works.

It's a PITA to deal with the options, especially the filing a new copyright and the derivative issues. Time is money. Time is lots of money if you have to consult an attorney.

MacAllister · Aug 18, 2011

Polenth said:
Registering your copyright for shorts before submission is the sort of thing that could turn an acceptance into a rejection. You need to tell the publisher, but be prepared that it might end badly.

Something to consider is that for most writers, obscurity is a far more likely fate than plagiarism. Adding an extra sixty locks on the front door might make it really hard to break into the house, but it's also going to be difficult for the owner to unlock the door. You have to find a balance between security and getting your work out there.

This.
I've turned writers down flat, after initially making an offer and only then finding out they'd registered a copyright on an existing version of a story before ever even submitting it.

And I'll do it again. I'll insta-reject without another thought, quite frankly.

This is an auto-reject for a couple of reasons, for me, when I'm acquiring either articles or stories -- even at the semi-pro, low-paying scale end of publishing. One, it marks the writer as a clueless amateur and very likely pain in the ass; and two, if I want a couple of small editorial changes (even typo fixes) it presents a bunch of potential red-tape because what I'm ostensibly going to be publishing is actually a derivative work, then. Just not worth the hassle.

benbradley · Aug 18, 2011

There's also, mentioned somewhere on AW in recent months on one of these many copyright threads, the cost to the author of registering the copyright on a work versus how much pay the author might expect from getting it published. With works shorter than novel length, it takes up a substantial portion of what you get paid - you're likely even losing money.

Smish · Aug 18, 2011

MeeMee2000 said:
Thanks for the responses! I'll let him know. We haven't signed any contracts or any thing so I certainly won't give up any rights until then. BTW, the one who said I meant to say "registered" my work with the Library of Congress is correct. Registering your work gives you more protection if someone steals your work. I would never show any one my work unless it were already protected.

It's unnecessary to register your copyright, and can be harmful, for all the reasons the others have stated.

Do a little research on copyright law. There are lots of threads here at AW. Your work is protected by copyright law the moment the words hit the page.

MeeMee2000 · Aug 18, 2011

For those disapproving my choice to copyright a story and then submit it for possible inclusion in an anthology - does it make a difference that the writer putting the package together said that 6 months after he gets the thing published, "all rights revert back to the authors"? Seems like I keep the rights anyways. Is this thinking incorrect?

MeeMee2000 · Aug 18, 2011

By the way, this is fascinating stuff! This is only the 2nd short story I've written. Before now, I've written 2 novels. I had no idea that publishers would consider rejecting a short story or novel just because the writer had registered it with the Library of Congress. Wow!!! I really learned something new!

J. Tanner · Aug 19, 2011

MeeMee2000 said:
For those disapproving my choice to copyright a story and then submit it for possible inclusion in an anthology - does it make a difference that the writer putting the package together said that 6 months after he gets the thing published, "all rights revert back to the authors"? Seems like I keep the rights anyways. Is this thinking incorrect?

This is standard operating procedure for short fiction. Sometimes the rights revert immediately on publication, sometimes 30, 60, 90, or 365 days later.

But basically they buy one time reproduction rights, and many will reserve non-exclusive reprint rights for best of collections and that sort of thing.

And all of that will make no difference in what they're describing since they're saying the registration of the copyright creates additional burdens to the transfer, however temporary, of those rights.

(I was not aware of the downsides others have mentioned in regards to registered copyrights. I assumed that you can easily contractually transfer your rights for a registered copyright the exact same way as a non-registered copyright. Interesting reading...)

Polenth · Aug 19, 2011

MeeMee2000 said:
For those disapproving my choice to copyright a story and then submit it for possible inclusion in an anthology - does it make a difference that the writer putting the package together said that 6 months after he gets the thing published, "all rights revert back to the authors"? Seems like I keep the rights anyways. Is this thinking incorrect?

Normally, you sell one-time rights for shorts and not the copyright. My initial reply was on the assumption you were selling one-time rights. It didn't change my reply, because the disapproval is only partly about the legal side. Registering implies you think editors will steal your story, which is not a good level of trust for starting out a professional relationship. It implies you're not expecting edits, which could make you difficult to work with. The whole thing implies you haven't researched the industry, which again, can make you difficult to work with. You don't want to create that sort of impression.

And that's before any legal issues that might arise, which would need paid-for legal advice.

All you can do is what's been suggested. Admit to it up-front and see what they say. It would also be in your best interest not to get into this situation again. If you don't trust an editor or agent, the best option is not to submit to them.

areteus · Aug 19, 2011

Registering of copyright is not something I have been aware of for fiction, exceptin cases where there is a character or concept which a corporation like Disney has copyright on. Not sure if this is a purely US thing or if it exists in the UK as well. However, from a legal point of view, surely if the author is happy to let the publisher use it and signs a contract to that effect and does not contest then there is no problem? Or is that only the case in non-registered copyright?And yes, rights revert after a contracted time (either a set time from publication or a set time from when it is out of print, though the latter is changing with ebooks and POD). However, this is the right to print the work and is not necessarily the copyright which, as far as I am aware, remains with the author unless given over in the contract. So, the author agrees to grant the publisher a limited right to publish his/her work (and this may be first printing rights, North American, European, Worldwide, print, ebook, audio, movie, TV etc - I've been taught to read contracts carefully to see what it is they are actually asking for in case they want something potentially valuable) but retains the copyright - the right to be acknowledged as the author of the work.

Terie · Aug 19, 2011

areteus said:
Registering of copyright is not something I have been aware of for fiction, exceptin cases where there is a character or concept which a corporation like Disney has copyright on. Not sure if this is a purely US thing or if it exists in the UK as well.

Registering copyright is a US thing.

areteus · Aug 19, 2011

Thought that was the case. Thank you for clearing that up

And hello to another Mancheter person!

jaksen · Aug 19, 2011

I formally registered my first two short stories. (This was a long time ago.) Both were sold, published, etc. (One was published multiple times.) My editor then told me that they (the publisher) registered the copyright and what I was doing was unnecessary and quite frowned upon.

Luckily, neither story required any edits. Since then, the magazine that buys my stories deals with copyright issues.

James D. Macdonald · Aug 19, 2011

The copyright is the writer's. The publishing rights are what are being bought, sold, or leased.

Say you write ten stories, and copyright them all at $35 each.

Say one out of ten sells (not an unreasonable number), for $350 (not an unreasonable price). Your effective income is all the way back up to zero.

MeeMee2000 · Aug 19, 2011

Great news! The guy putting the package together told me that there was absolutely no problem with me copyrighting my work! Yay! Incidentally, my other short story was published on a major website, and I retained all rights and they didn't care about my copyright either. Guess I've been lucky so far...

By the way, my background is mainly in screenwriting and in that industry, contests, producers, and even some writers won't even look at your stuff unless it's been copyrighted (registered). Of course, if you flaunt it by putting your copyright number on your script then you look like an amatuer, but it is expected that you've already registered it. I think people see it as protecting both the author AND any one who reads it.

Thanks everyone for schooling me on the publishing world. If anyone has any links to websites that discusses more how novel/short story writers are discouraged from copyrighting their work, please post it. I couldn't find any thing after doing a google search.

James D. Macdonald · Aug 19, 2011

Registered with the WGA is different from being copyrighted.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 19, 2011

MeeMee2000 said:
Great news! The guy putting the package together told me that there was absolutely no problem with me copyrighting my work!

Please stop misusing the word copyright.

Copyright is yours from the moment you create a work that you were not contracted to write.

Registering the copyright with the Library of Congress is an entirely different thing.

Haggis · Aug 19, 2011

MeeMee2000 said:
If anyone has any links to websites that discusses more how novel/short story writers are discouraged from copyrighting their work, please post it. I couldn't find any thing after doing a google search.

There are all kinds of additional threads right here on AW that discuss the issue. It comes up from time to time. Like all the time.

Copyrighted work - When do you transfer your rights?

MeeMee2000

Deleted member 42

areteus

J. Tanner

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

MeeMee2000

J. Tanner

Polenth

Mushroom

Deleted member 42

MacAllister

Tired and worried.

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world

Smish

Reads more than she writes.

MeeMee2000

MeeMee2000

J. Tanner

Polenth

Mushroom

areteus

Terie

Writer is as Writer does

areteus

jaksen

Caped Codder

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

MeeMee2000

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

Deleted member 42

Haggis

Evil, undead Chihuahua