Word Count

Rebekkah · Aug 17, 2011

I wrote a YA paranormal book with crossover potential. It's a first in a series, and right now I'm writing the sequel to it. The word count for the first book is (according to the computer) 111,000 words. Is that too much? I have heard that 100,000 was the highest you could go on a YA novel. However, I know that there have been first time authors with a word count just as high or higher than that. I've also heard that if an agent loves your story then it doesn't matter. I've had my story critiqued and read by several people (none of them family members or friends), and they really like/love the story. So should I just leave my story alone and leave it at 111,000 words, or should I rewrite it and trim it down to 100,000 words or less?

Thanks for your help. I appreciate it.

KateSmash · Aug 17, 2011

Word count guidelines are just that - guidelines. They're not hard and fast rules that can't be broken. Take as many words as you need to tell the story. No more, no less.

That said, a word count over 100K will give a lot of agents pause when they're queried with a first book. Having an absolutely stellar query letter and flawless sample pages will help ease some of that shock.

As to whether you should rewrite/trim - could the manuscript use another pass? Is everything the best that you can make it and everything essential to the story? If yes: yay! Move on and query. If not: well, another revision couldn't hurt.

Archie1989 · Aug 17, 2011

There are a lot of agents who blog (check out PubRants) about this very topic. Most will try to discourage certain types of manuscripts above 100k words (YA is one of these) usually, fantasy YA novels can go a bit higher on wordcount, but I'd definitely take a look at trying to trim it down in order to avoid getting a rejection because someone thinks the book is too long. Nine times out of ten, a "finished" manuscript can do with some cutting back.

However, you might have a perfect version at 111k. =]

Matches · Aug 17, 2011

I agree with the other comments in the thread, but I'll also add that it might be helpful to write a complete outline for your novel, whether that be on notecards or what have you. Include every scene, chapter--everything. That way you can have a clear view of everything that happens in the novel, and might get a better picture of what to cut if you do need to get it down to size.

Rebekkah · Aug 17, 2011

Thanks you guys.

I've been over my story a lot of times and it all seems relevant to me. However, I'll read through it again, and see what I can do. Maybe something will click and I'll have one of those ah-ha moments

allz28 · Aug 17, 2011

Unless you have already performed a ton of editing on that first manuscript, I'm betting you can easily cut 11,000 words from it.

Stephen King says 2nd draft = 1st draft minus 10%

cherita · Aug 17, 2011

Some debut YA books from first time authors with word counts over 100k (this is just off the top of my head):

148k Beautiful Creatures
130k City of Bones (first Mortal Instruments)
118k Twilight
117k Before I Fall

There are more I know but I can't think of them right now. So if your ms is as tight and polished as you can get it, then don't worry too much about it (although, I agree you'll want your query letter as short and snappy as possible to show the length isn't b/c you're too wordy). That said, you do want to make sure your ms is definitely as tight and polished as you can get it.

allz28 · Aug 17, 2011

Wow, I would have guessed Twilight was much longer than that.

Chumala · Aug 17, 2011

allz28 said:
Wow, I would have guessed Twilight was much longer than that.

Twilight was longer, I think Meyer said she finished at like 130,000. Then an editor helped her cut it down to 118,000.

n3onkn1ght · Aug 17, 2011

allz28 said:
Stephen King says 2nd draft = 1st draft minus 10%

That only works if you're a writer like King who doesn't outline and has diarrhea of the typewriter.

It's practically useless when a writer chronically underwrites and then beefs up in revisions, like I do.

YAwriter72 · Aug 17, 2011

n3onkn1ght said:
That only works if you're a writer like King who doesn't outline and has diarrhea of the typewriter.

That is awesome!

Mysty · Aug 17, 2011

Re the debut novels above 100k: for all we know they might not have been when they were picked up. A while back I had the pleasure of looking at the edit notes of a published author from their editor, and I'd say 60% of them involved elaboration.

cherita · Aug 17, 2011

Mysty said:
Re the debut novels above 100k: for all we know they might not have been when they were picked up. A while back I had the pleasure of looking at the edit notes of a published author from their editor, and I'd say 60% of them involved elaboration.

Having read all the books that I listed, I'm fairly confident if those books originally had significantly different word counts, they were probably higher and asked to cut. In the first two especially, there was still a lot that could've been trimmed (I liked City of Bones, but that whole run around the vampire hotel to rescue Simon could have been cut entirely and not messed up the story at all -- not even messed up future sequels based on Simon). I wonder if that published author underwrites to begin with...

allz28 · Aug 17, 2011

n3onkn1ght said:
That only works if you're a writer like King who doesn't outline and has diarrhea of the typewriter.

It's practically useless when a writer chronically underwrites and then beefs up in revisions, like I do.

True, but I'm guessing any one with a 111,000 word first draft is not a chronic under writer.

Mysty · Aug 17, 2011

It's an interesting question to ask. Of course, even in novels that aren't even half as long as the ones you listed, there are probably scenes that could be cut that weren't. It's not a matter of word count.

n3onkn1ght · Aug 17, 2011

YAwriter72 said:
That is awesome!

I just call 'em like I see 'em.

Seriously, I tried rereading It not too long ago, and I made it up to the part where King spends page after page after page on Stan's wife, a character who....never appears in the story again. Seriously, a single page would've been enough to convey all the important information, two if I'm feeling generous. King spends twelve pages chronicling the entire history of Stan and his wife's marriage.

cherita · Aug 17, 2011

Mysty said:
It's an interesting question to ask. Of course, even in novels that aren't even half as long as the ones you listed, there are probably scenes that could be cut that weren't. It's not a matter of word count.

Well, the particular "scene" I was referring to spanned two whole chapters, nearly 50 pages that could have been cut in their entirety without affecting the integrity of the plot in any way... so I'm thinking it is about word count in that instance.

To the OP, those are the kinds of things you want to look out for if you're concerned about a too high word count and you've edited for wordiness already -- those extra bits that, while they may be well written and develop/reveal character or are action packed and fun, etc, they don't *really* drive the plot forward. Or maybe you have too many subplots...

allz28 · Aug 18, 2011

Chumala said:
Twilight was longer, I think Meyer said she finished at like 130,000. Then an editor helped her cut it down to 118,000.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0316160172/?tag=absowrit-20

Looks like Twilight may even be a little shorter than 118k. Amazon Text stats puts it at 115,362 words.

I really thought that book was longer. It sure felt longer when I read it.

Rebekkah · Aug 18, 2011

There are more I know but I can't think of them right now. So if your ms is as tight and polished as you can get it, then don't worry too much about it (although, I agree you'll want your query letter as short and snappy as possible to show the length isn't b/c you're too wordy). That said, you do want to make sure your ms is definitely as tight and polished as you can get it.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. That makes me feel better. I've been over my manuscript countless times, and even had some critiques done on it. Right now, just for the hell of it, I'm going over it again, just to see if I can trim it down a bit. Oh, and I agree about the query letter too.

Inkblot · Aug 18, 2011

Have you checked to make sure that every chapter has enough conflict and tension to deserve its pages? If not, then make those cuts first.

After you've looked at your whole novel this way, then you can check it at the word-by-word level. Take 5 or more random pages from the manuscript. (Not the first five, because they've probably been heavily edited.) Go over those pages with a fine tooth comb and see how many words you can eliminate without causing any damage to your story. How many words did you eliminate on average? That might suggest how many you could eliminate if you revised the whole manuscript in that fashion.

For example, if you started with a manuscript over 400 pages -- and didn't make any major cuts of chapters or sections -- then you could reduce your word count 12,000 words by cutting about 30 words per page.

toldyouso · Aug 18, 2011

allz28 said:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0316160172/?tag=absowrit-20

Looks like Twilight may even be a little shorter than 118k. Amazon Text stats puts it at 115,362 words.

I really thought that book was longer. It sure felt longer when I read it.

That tends to happen when the plot is so paper-thin

It sure felt like the pain would never end when I waded through it. Hehe. Ok. Twilight bashing aside... I was also warned with my YA MS to keep it on the shorter side, but I also underwrite and then add things later, so it wasn't hard to keep it under 80,000. Have you have a beta read over it?

Rebekkah · Aug 24, 2011

Yeah. I had it beta read a couple times. I'm going over it right now (Again

), and I got it down to 109,000 so far. However, my beta reader told me my story is fine. She really likes it. I don't know. I tend to be a perfectionist when it comes to my work, and I'm hyper critical of it too. I think I'm my worst enemy.

Ryan_Sullivan · Aug 25, 2011

My advice: don't worry about word count too much. Make it the best you possibly can, and go for it. You're not at the point of insanely long, so while some agents may reject it, if it's good enough, I'm sure the right agent will be there. Also, you may want to look at the length of agent's books in your genre--if they have quite a few longer ones, they may be less worried about length. Every agent has different things they prioritize.

thebloodfiend · Aug 25, 2011

cherita said:
Some debut YA books from first time authors with word counts over 100k (this is just off the top of my head):

148k Beautiful Creatures
130k City of Bones (first Mortal Instruments)
118k Twilight
117k Before I Fall

There are more I know but I can't think of them right now. So if your ms is as tight and polished as you can get it, then don't worry too much about it (although, I agree you'll want your query letter as short and snappy as possible to show the length isn't b/c you're too wordy). That said, you do want to make sure your ms is definitely as tight and polished as you can get it.

When I actually look at these books, only one really deserved the word count. The others could've been edited thoroughly. And Lauren Oliver, I do believe, didn't have an agent. She works for some kind of book packager and I think she sold directly to an editor. Most of the complaints for Beautiful Creatures is that it's too long, too boring, and too repetitive. I'd agree. I haven't even picked up the sequels because they're even longer. You can say the same about Twilight, though, I don't know the length of the sequels, but I will say the series got better with subsequent volumes. As I've never finished Mortal Instruments (and have no desire to do so) I won't comment. My sister read City of Ashes and City of Fallen Angels and I remember her groaning about the length.

If you look at Harry Potter, the first book was actually pretty short. They got longer as the series progressed. I'd advise cutting 11k off and seeing if you could get even slimmer than that because when I look at word counts for debuts that go over 90k, I wonder how much of the book is repetitive filler. I trust authors I'm familiar with to get lengthy (well, I don't trust Stephen King).

Just ask yourself if it's worth having that six digit word count or getting a few more *potential* agent bites. Sure, your perfect agent might accept six digits, but I wouldn't want to alienate any of my prospects. I want nothing that I can prevent to stand in my way. Now, if my MS is about flying worms and the agent doesn't like flying worms, there's nothing I can do about that.

thebloodfiend · Aug 25, 2011

n3onkn1ght said:
I just call 'em like I see 'em.

Seriously, I tried rereading It not too long ago, and I made it up to the part where King spends page after page after page on Stan's wife, a character who....never appears in the story again. Seriously, a single page would've been enough to convey all the important information, two if I'm feeling generous. King spends twelve pages chronicling the entire history of Stan and his wife's marriage.

I believe I stopped reading It right around then. I was waiting for him to get back to the plot. I'd already seen the movie, so I didn't miss much except for the child orgy.

The Stand is another book of his that even he admits got out of control. He just started killing characters because he didn't know how to end the thing. For a guy who started out with short stories, you think he'd know a little bit about trimming.

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