Question about grammar

Ambitious

If there is one or more sentences that aren't grammatically correct, will the agent/publisher reject you? Even if the story itself is great, will you still get rejected?

Sorry if this is in the wrong section.
 

Anne Lyle

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Depends. Grammatical errors in the opening paragraphs/pages loom larger than ones later in the manuscript. Everyone makes mistakes now and then - but OTOH first impressions count. If you're less than 100% confident, it doesn't hurt to run your opening past some grammar Nazis, to reduce the chance of being blown off over some silly mistake.
 

Maryn

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Ambitious, it all depends on how bad the mistakes are and whether they're quite rare or pepper the whole manuscript.

It takes more than a great story. It takes a great story which is well-written. (Arrrgggh, that's the hard part!)

I know you didn't ask, but I noticed the subject (plural) verb (singular) disagreement in your first clause of your question. Mistakes of this nature might very well result in rejection.

However, you're in luck, because AW has a good grammar section with many people who know bunches and are happy to teach, plus refer you to books and websites which can help you self-teach. You put in the work, we'll get you there.

Maryn, grammar-lady
 

Ambitious

Depends. Grammatical errors in the opening paragraphs/pages loom larger than ones later in the manuscript. Everyone makes mistakes now and then - but OTOH first impressions count. If you're less than 100% confident, it doesn't hurt to run your opening past some grammar Nazis, to reduce the chance of being blown off over some silly mistake.

That's certainly made me more confident, knowing that only a selected number of people get it 100% perfect.
 

Ambitious

Ambitious, it all depends on how bad the mistakes are and whether they're quite rare or pepper the whole manuscript.

It takes more than a great story. It takes a great story which is well-written. (Arrrgggh, that's the hard part!)

I know you didn't ask, but I noticed the subject (plural) verb (singular) disagreement in your first clause of your question. Mistakes of this nature might very well result in rejection.

However, you're in luck, because AW has a good grammar section with many people who know bunches and are happy to teach, plus refer you to books and websites which can help you self-teach. You put in the work, we'll get you there.

Maryn, grammar-lady

I've just noticed the mistake, thanks for pointing that out, I can't make mistakes like that when approaching an agent.
 

Anne Lyle

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That's certainly made me more confident, knowing that only a selected number of people get it 100% perfect.

I'll let you know how I did when my proofs come in later this month! I think my grammar, etc, is pretty good, but I'm sure I must have missed something. No-one's perfect!
 

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If there is one or more sentences that aren't grammatically correct, will the agent/publisher reject you? . . . .
View from a micropublisher here, so take with a grain of salt: I have in the works a memoir that I made thousands of edits in, including (but not limited to) grammar, usage, and punctuation fixups. The book has value and a likely and accessible (albeit not huge) audience, and was worth the effort. For a work of fiction or a nonfiction book without distinctive value worth pursuing, I'd not be interested.

That said, busy agents and acquisitions editors are looking for a reason to reject, and want to find that reason as quickly as possible. (One agent friend of mine put it just that bluntly.) Don't give them a reason.

--Ken
 

Arkie

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I've just noticed the mistake, thanks for pointing that out, I can't make mistakes like that when approaching an agent.
Correct. And not even in the query letter or email.
 

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That said, busy agents and acquisitions editors are looking for a reason to reject, and want to find that reason as quickly as possible. (One agent friend of mine put it just that bluntly.) Don't give them a reason.

--Ken

Really? Looking for a reason to reject? It seems to me that agents would be looking for a reason to accept a book, as it is their bread and butter. They are looking for good books, not bad ones.
 
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Arkie

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Really? Looking for a reason to reject? It seems to me that agents would be looking for a reason to accept a book, as it is their bread and butter. They are looking for good books, not bad ones.

As harsh as it sounds, I think Ken is correct. (He's almost never wrong.) I have access to BookTV on cable and subscribe to Poets and Writers Magazine. I've seen and read a number of interviews with agents and editors over the past several months. (Most from the New York publishing scene.) And most of it is very discouraging to a novice writer. Agents, I think, just get tired and bored with looking at bad manuscripts. Agents sometime talk about finding a "unique" voice (whatever that is), and claim they can determine a writer's voice and skill by a few lines of the query letter. Many claims made of never getting past the query. And they want clean manuscripts. I have read where the agent said they read the MS looking for a reason to reject and if they hadn't found a reason by page 50, they could usually continue to the end. Although fear of being called for age discrimination, two women agents in one interview, reluctantly claimed not to look at manuscripts from any writer over fifty, and did not want any new clients over that age. The appearance and energy of the writer is evidently very important for the agent, as they want authors willing to get out and sell their book. They seem to prefer pretty people, with pretty stories appealing to a wide range of reader interest, requiring little editing. Anyway, that's why I'm looking into self-publishing the three novels I currently have gathering dust.
 
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Susan Coffin

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As harsh as it sounds, I think Ken is correct. (He's almost never wrong.) I have access to BookTV on cable and subscribe to Poets and Writers Magazine. I've seen and read a number of interviews with agents and editors over the past several months. (Most from the New York publishing scene.) And most of it is very discouraging to a novice writer.

Okay, please give me some specifics of what those agents say. Please give me sources.

As for whether another poster is right or wrong, he can be wrong with facts, but opinion is opinion.
Agents, I think, just get tired and bored with looking at bad manuscripts. Agents sometime talk about finding a "unique" voice (whatever that is), and claim they can determine a writer's voice and skill by a few lines of the query letter.
Of course they do. I get bored reading what I think is a bad book, but it somehow got published and sold.

Of course they want a unique voice. I love reading books with different voices.

Many claims made of never getting past the query. And they want clean manuscripts.

Finally, writing a good query letter is a must. That is agent's first introduction to the writer.

I have read where the agent said they read the MS looking for a reason to reject and if they hadn't found a reason by page 50, they could usually continue to the end.
Please provide your source for this. If a book is bad, most people don't read past a certain page.

Although fear of being called for age discrimination, two women agents in one interview, reluctantly claimed not to look at manuscripts from any writer over fifty, and did not want any new clients over that age.
Who are these agents?

The appearance and energy of the writer is evidently very important for the agent, as they want authors willing to get out and sell their book. They seem to prefer pretty people, with pretty stories appealing to a wide range of reader interest, requiring little editing.
Excuses. The agent-author relationship is a partnership, people have a part to do. However, not all authors are pretty or young or have pretty stories.

Can you blame an agent for wanting a book that requires less editing? Or, that they want an an author who will participate in selling their book? I'm afraid age has nothing to do with that.

Anyway, that's why I'm looking into self-publishing the three novels I currently have gathering dust
How many agents have your queried? If your work has been rejected, did you ever learn why? What do you feel you can accomplish with self-publishing as opposed to seeking an agent?

I continue to disagree that agents are just looking for work to reject. What would be the pay off? A legit agent makes money off books they sell, not off ones they reject. Therefore, it makes sense that they are looking for the gold in the rocks, not the rocks hiding the gold.
 

Anne Lyle

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I agree with Ken and Arkie. Obviously the agent wants to find a great manuscript, but experience has shown them that 99% of submissions are just not good enough, for various reasons (Google "Slushkiller" if you want the numbers).

An agent with dozens of submissions to go through every day will want to spend as little time as possible on the dross so that he can give proper attention to the good ones. Careless errors in the query letter or partial show a lack of professionalism; if the writer doesn't care about their work enough to get it right, why should the agent?

That's what "looking for reasons to reject" means.

As for some agents wanting young attractive authors only, that probably applies to some genres more than others. In SFF, it's an advantage, but not a prerequisite by any means. There are some fugly SFF writers out there (particularly guys!) and some who, through health issues, are unable to do much in-person promotion. Neither is much of an obstacle in today's world of online promotion.
 

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In a query letter, most likely yes. In a novel, no, of course not.

Having said this, some of my novels and short stories are filled with grammatically incorrect sentences. The right grammar is often not the same thing as the correct grammar.

You need to avoid too many unintentional errors. Intentional errors can make for excellent writing. Just read Huckleberry Finn.

Well-written is an opinion. Not many seem to think Dan Brown or Stephani Meyer have been on the same continent with well-written, but both have done fine because of story and character.

You do need grammar skills, but you do not need to be a grammar guru. If you have the basic skills, cleaning up a few errors is not a big deal at all.
 

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I agree with Ken and Arkie. Obviously the agent wants to find a great manuscript, but experience has shown them that 99% of submissions are just not good enough, for various reasons (Google "Slushkiller" if you want the numbers).

An agent with dozens of submissions to go through every day will want to spend as little time as possible on the dross so that he can give proper attention to the good ones. Careless errors in the query letter or partial show a lack of professionalism; if the writer doesn't care about their work enough to get it right, why should the agent?

That's what "looking for reasons to reject" means.

I definitely see where the three of you are coming from, therefore perhaps the answer lies in the expression of our own opinions or attitudes. I prefer the attitude that agents are looking for a reason to accept my manuscript, which seems more positive to me. After all, if I truly think that agents are looking for a reason to reject my work, then I would have no reason to submit it, and no reason to make my work the best that it can be.
 

Anne Lyle

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Taking a positive attitude is a good thing, and of course you have to believe that your work is worth their time - but I think it helps to take the sting out of rejection if you understand that, to the agent, your book is just one of many vying for their attention.
 

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Okay, please give me some specifics of what those agents say. Please give me sources.

As for whether another poster is right or wrong, he can be wrong with facts, but opinion is opinion.
Of course they do. I get bored reading what I think is a bad book, but it somehow got published and sold.

Of course they want a unique voice. I love reading books with different voices.

Many claims made of never getting past the query. And they want clean manuscripts.

Finally, writing a good query letter is a must. That is agent's first introduction to the writer.

Please provide your source for this. If a book is bad, most people don't read past a certain page.

Who are these agents?

Excuses. The agent-author relationship is a partnership, people have a part to do. However, not all authors are pretty or young or have pretty stories.

Can you blame an agent for wanting a book that requires less editing? Or, that they want an an author who will participate in selling their book? I'm afraid age has nothing to do with that.

How many agents have your queried? If your work has been rejected, did you ever learn why? What do you feel you can accomplish with self-publishing as opposed to seeking an agent?

I continue to disagree that agents are just looking for work to reject. What would be the pay off? A legit agent makes money off books they sell, not off ones they reject. Therefore, it makes sense that they are looking for the gold in the rocks, not the rocks hiding the gold.

I gave the sources of BookTV and Poets and Writers Magazine in my original post. I cannot reconstruct conversations from memory from BookTV and I have dropped my subscription to P&W; however, some public libraries may take the magazine and may have back copies. Poets and Writers published a series of interviews with agents and publishers over a six-month period about a year and a half past. Those interviewed were all from New York City. On the question of submissions: I have been submitting various manuscripts since 1967. Most replies were canned rejections: "Not for us." In only one case have I ever been given a reason for rejection and that was for the query letter. The lady wrote in pen across the face of the letter she returned that I had to many run-on sentences, and that anyone who wrote run-on sentences could never write a novel.

There is no doubt it is good to have a positive attitude about your writing and that there are important steps to take when seeking representation such as writing a genre that sells and finding the proper agent match for that genre. I think a shotgunned approach to submissions is wasteful. I've tried both the shotgun and researched-zeroed-in approach to finding an agent, but so far zilch. Maybe you'll have better luck.
 

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If there is one or more sentences that aren't grammatically correct, will the agent/publisher reject you?

I know you didn't ask, but I noticed the subject (plural) verb (singular) disagreement in your first clause of your question. Mistakes of this nature might very well result in rejection.

The subject here, one or more sentences as I see it has both a singular and a plural noun (one [sentence] ; more sentences)

The way I was taught to deal with the word or was to make the verb match the closest noun in the subject. I've seen this a lot where the verb follows or, but not very often when it precedes or.

I think the first clause is actually correct.

Incorrect would be If there are one [sentence] or more sentences that aren't...

Bart, attempting pedantry.
 

Susan Coffin

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There is no doubt it is good to have a positive attitude about your writing and that there are important steps to take when seeking representation such as writing a genre that sells and finding the proper agent match for that genre. I think a shotgunned approach to submissions is wasteful. I've tried both the shotgun and researched-zeroed-in approach to finding an agent, but so far zilch. Maybe you'll have better luck.

I have not had my novel accepted yet. I have the same rejection history as most writers out there. I've never gotten what I would consider bad rejections, but I have gotten personalized ones. That's always nice.

I agree searching out an agent must be well thought out, just as our query letter and our manuscript. All I can advise is to keep sending your work out and keep trying until, of course, you decide you have queried all agents in your particular genre.
 

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Really? Looking for a reason to reject? It seems to me that agents would be looking for a reason to accept a book, as it is their bread and butter. They are looking for good books, not bad ones.
Exactly. And they receive so many queries and submissions that they promptly weed out as many as they can. Here is direct quote (grabbed from a page of advice to aspiring book authors, but not distorted by lack of context) from a long-established literary agent I know fairly well: "I'm busy. I'm usually going to say no. I want to say it as quickly as possible."

I have heard the same, in different words, from at least two other well established literary agents, and have read similar views in published books and articles.

--Ken
 

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Exactly. And they receive so many queries and submissions that they promptly weed out as many as they can. Here is direct quote (grabbed from a page of advice to aspiring book authors, but not distorted by lack of context) from a long-established literary agent I know fairly well: "I'm busy. I'm usually going to say no. I want to say it as quickly as possible."

I have heard the same, in different words, from at least two other well established literary agents, and have read similar views in published books and articles.

--Ken

Ken,

Well, I can hear an agent saying the above based on their experience of receiving so many submissions, the majority probably not publishable material. I can understand wanting to get a rejection over with so they can move toward finding the gold in the rocks. However, I still don't see this as a way of looking for a reason to reject, but more of a knowing based on experience that they will turn away most manuscripts. In fact, an agent doesn't even have to give a reason for rejecting, nor do agents have to provide a rejection/response at all.
 

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. . . In fact, an agent doesn't even have to give a reason for rejecting, nor do agents have to provide a rejection/response at all.
True. Most (I believe -- at least many) provide a very basic note to the effect that the submission does not meet current needs. Period. I once heard an agent hilariously relate WHY she does that. To give any further reason is an invitation to unwanted, time-wasting back and forth, occasionally culminating in stalking behavior by the spurned author (of which she had examples). She also shared some hideous queries, possibily causing some in the audience of aspiring writers to squirm.

--Ken
 

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My guess is that an agent/editor would not say, "Eureka! Here I have the next best thing. However, I see a typo. So, nevermind." But, I don't think it's likely that a great book would be written by someone who lacked basic skills, either.
 
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My guess is that an agent/editor would not say, "Eureka! Here I have the next best thing. However, I see a typo. So, nevermind." But, I don't think it's likely that a great book would be written by someone who lacked basic skills, either.
Egocentricity, unpleasant attitude (sense of entitlement, inflated expectations, neediness), or lack of professionalism, even if the writing is good, will more likely lead to the "nevermind" (rejection). The agent or acquisitions editor might not even have gotten TO the manuscript in order to know that this is not a writer with whom he or she wants to work. (This, too, comes directly from an agent who has shared tips for writers who might send queries.)

--Ken
 

Anne Lyle

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However, I still don't see this as a way of looking for a reason to reject, but more of a knowing based on experience that they will turn away most manuscripts.

I think you're reading too much into the phrase "looking for a reason to reject" or maybe taking it too literally. In her own mind the agent is looking for a book she can sell, but in practice she has a mental list of "turn offs" that will instantly bias her against a submission - and those are what she notices first.
 

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I'm very good at grammar. In everything I've ever submitted anywhere the grammar is impeccable.

The pieces, however, have always been judged extremely peccable.

Your grammar should be free from error, meaning that any irregularities in grammatical expression should be both deliberate, and transparently so to a reader (think Huckleberry Finn). But that quite possibly won't be good enough.

What would be "good enough" lies beyond my knowledge, and apparently, beyond my ability.

caw