Learn The Nonfiction Book Publication Process With Mommas Jenna and Lauri and Poppa F

[JennaGlatzer]

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[JennaGlatzer]

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[scfirenice]

MommyJ

I just wrote my first proposal for my NF piece only I'm not sure about the entire project. I think the proposal is good and I already have the thing half done, BUT it's not going to be that long maybe around 25,000 words. It is a compilation of labor and delivery inspirational stories (Some don't end well, but they all have a motivational component.) I was thinking it would be a smallish hardback gift type book. I dunno. Anyone want to take a look at my proposal and tell me if it sucks?

[JennaGlatzer]

Ah, yes. Gift books can certainly be a lot shorter than "regular" nonfiction books. Especially if they're going to have photos/artwork included.

[JennaGlatzer]

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[Vanessa]

Aww Jenna, this is right up my alley.:Clap: Just what I needed. Thanks for the info. I've bookmarked this thread. This is why I hang out with KF's. (Knowledge Feeders):D

[DeniseK]

I hope you know I am saving this link. :Hail:

Thank you so much for doing this, Jenna.

[LloydBrown]

You're the best, Jenna. My proposal got no agents, but I'm thinking that's likely to be because of the limited size of my market. I'm thinking 5-digit copies sold: exactly where in that range is up for grabs. I'm afraid it's not enough earning potential to interest an agent.

My next proposal is going direct to publishers, but I'll wait to see a bit more of what you have to say.

[JennaGlatzer]

Lloyd, you're probably right. If it's a niche book, it'll be hard to attract an agent-- but the good news is that most of the smaller presses don't require agented submissions, and that's probably where you'd fit best. I had a heck of a time finding an agent to rep Make a Real Living as a Freelance Writer, but I already knew there were several publishers who specialize in books for writers-- Writer's Digest Books, Allworth Press, SquareOne Publishers, and Marion Street, to name four-- and I happened to run into Nomad Press along the way, who didn't specialize in books for writers at the time, but were interested in nonfiction how-to books in general. (Now they're looking to expand their writing titles.)

Oh, and I've mentioned this before-- I've sold the vast majority of my books without an agent. From what I've learned here and in my perspective, an agent is more important for new novelists than nonfiction writers... there are few publishers who won't look at a query/proposal from an unagented nonfiction author, at least in my experience. Of course, you must have a contact name and not just a general "Dear Editor" letter, but we'll get to that later.

[MadScientistMatt]

I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread, Jenna.

Not knowing any better, I went and banged out a complete non-fiction book on its own, and now I've finished revising a second draft. The book is a complete guide to chosing the right modifications for a car. Now I'm wondering: Would it be better to write a proposal for this book, or get a few beta readers to check it out and further refine it?

Also, this book is going to need a lot of illustrations in its final form. In fact, it will need a lot of them to make sense to any beta readers who are unfamiliar with cars. If I went with beta readers, this may really delay things. Should I get to work on these for beta readers? Or should I leave illustration to the publisher's pros?

[MOON GODDESS]

Jenna,

Thanks for this very informative thread.
I was just wondering if you will touch on breaking into new markets?
You know, if you typically write material about X or make a living as Y, how do you break into true-crime writing for example, or write the next Chicken Soup book?
Thanks for any help.

[underthecity]

Jenna,

Can other nonfiction authors step in and say stuff too? I have some items I'd like to add.

allen

[JennaGlatzer]

Allen, absolutely!

(Matt and Moon, I'll answer your questions later-- just wanted to jump in and tell Allen to go for it. :) )

[JennaGlatzer]

OK, answers to what I can answer:

Matt, yep, you're still going to need a proposal. The good news is that it should be relatively easy to write because you already have the manuscript to work from.

Agents and publishers really do want to see a proposal because it includes info they won't find in the book itself-- such as information about the target market and competing books. You can note in the proposal that the full manuscript is available. They also prefer to see a proposal first because they can get a much quicker view on the book overall without having to read the whole thing to know what's included.

About illustrations: My gut tells me that if it hinders the understanding of the read (of the sample chapters), you'll need to either put in some rough sketches or text that describes what the sketch will look like, but I'm not sure on this, so I just sent your question to one of my editors and will let you know what she says.

Moon, yep, I'll get into that (probably after I finish explaining the steps of a proposal). Remind me if I don't answer exactly what you're asking.

[underthecity]

Other considerations:

I am not going to directly contradict Jenna, but I'd like to throw in some comments based on my own experiences.

Book Completion It's true, for a nonfiction title you don't need to have the manuscript finished before you start seeking a publisher. But to expand on the above statements, you had better make sure you can finish a whole book on the subject before you start pitching it. Chances are, you're married, you have a full-time job, you might have kids. You already have a busy life. A nonfiction book will require research: libraries, bookstores, interviews, driving across town to meet interviewees, seeking source materials, etc. Do you have time to do all this? If you submit a proposal that says you plan to have a completed manuscript in six months, then you had better be sure you can follow through. You'll have no idea what kinds of obstacles you will face between the idea stage and printing out yet another manuscript revision.

Proposals Don't get too hung up on the mechanics of a proposal. Nonfiction publishers will sometimes, more often than not, tell you exactly what they want in a proposal. Sometimes, with noses pointed high, they might refer to a proposal as a "Vita." Needless to say, it's the same thing. Follow their guidelines and write a good one. But yes, nonfiction publishers require them.

Source materials Make double sure you will have access to source materials: photographs, letters, legal documents, interviews, before you begin your project--even before you send out that proposal. If you plan to write a book about the subway in your city that was built but never used, you'd better know where to find the supporting photographs, city documents, and maybe even legal clearances to use some of the materials. Some private collectors can be surprisingly stingy when it comes to sharing rare photographs (yes, I've been there) so don't depend on just one source for information or materials (which I do not). For instance, you might say in your proposal, "The Historical Society has all the photographs and documents I need." Then after your contract is signed, you discover that either the Historical Society has just a few instead of the hundreds of images you thought they had, or they DO have the images, they just charge $100 apiece for publication rights. If you secured an advance, that money may completely disappear just for this purpose. So, plan to use multiple sources.

Briefly on Advances Not all publishers offer advances. Be forewarned that some do and some do not. An advantage to not getting an advance is that you're guaranteed a nice royalty check every six months.

Manuscript length Each publisher has different requirements on text lengths and photo layout. You may imagine your book will be a nice coffee table book with big, glossy pages. What you end up getting may be different than what you expected. Be flexible. Also, you will be required to modify your text and proposed image layout to fit the requirements of the publisher. If you've written 75,000 words and have 300 photographs, but your publisher's books only contain 128 pages and 200 photos, then be prepared to edit to their standard. Don't complain about it and just do it. Your book will be better for it. Trust me, I've been there.

On Writing Yes, you should read Stephen King's On Writing, but that's not what I mean here. When you write your manuscript, depending on its subject matter of course, write it for the general reader. Have you ever picked up a book published by a university press written by a professor who overuses long, ponderous words in complex sentences? I've tried and I can't get through two paragraphs of it. Just a suggestion: keep it simple.

Last but not least check, double check, and triple check your information. There's nothing worse than having readers point out all the inaccuracies in your book after it's been on the shelves for a few months. (Note, this did not happen to me in either of my first two books. However, it did happen to one of my publisher's other books that I know of.) Although you may already have planned to make use of beta readers, have an expert or two read your manuscript NOT for grammar and puctuation, but for accuracy. Give them an acknowledgement and a copy of the book for their trouble. Although you can bend the laws of physics to work in fiction, you can't do the same in a nofiction book. Your book could be used a reference book in a classroom, or will be an aid to researchers. Accurate information is a must, and believe it or not, some authors don't get that.

There's more, but my lunch hour is up.

edited to add: To find out how I wrote my first book, please check out my faq page (http://www.allensedge.com/allenfaq.html).

allen

[JennaGlatzer]

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[JennaGlatzer]

Matt, from one of my editors:

Hi there. Depends on the publisher and the budget for the book.
If it's just a proposal, I would just put into the proposal that the book would contain X number of highly illustrated ...
Most of the time, it would be the author's responsibility to supply the line drawings. But, again, it depends on the publisher and how "big" a book the publisher sees this as, thus how much of a budget would be put behind it.

I'm going to ask Frank (aka eraser) to chime in on this, too, because I think he was responsible for producing drawings for his fishy book...

[MadScientistMatt]

Thank you, Jenna. So while it looks like I may need to illustrate it, at least I may be able to put that off for a while.

And in case you were wondering, I had a pretty clear audience in mind when I wrote the book. I moderate a couple car message boards, and one of them often has people stop by and comment that they are either looking for a car to modify, or have bought a car, want to make it go faster, but don't know where to start. I wrote my book to answer those questions.

[aka eraser]

My ears were burning.... ;)

If the pubs to which Matt is submitting are familiar with techie car-type stuff, then just a description of the illustrations will likely suffice for a proposal. When (let's think positively) they offer a contract and ask for the full, then supplying rough sketches for the pub's art gurus to work from will suffice.

Any 6-year-old, chosen at random, can draw better than I can. We, (editor, me, art people) all enjoyed belly laughs at my drawings. But the art gurus got the gist and after some back-n-forthing "we" came up with some nifty illustrations.

Good luck Matt. :)

[Anastacia]

As a writer currently preparing to submit what I hope will be a successful non-fiction book proposal, I just want to thank Jenna so much for this thread! How kind of you to share your knowlege and experience with us!

:)

[amsparky]

Jenna,

I just want to say thank you for taking the time to do this. I am finishing my first nonific book now and am amazed at how long it takes and all the issues I have come across. I will probably ask some specific questions later in the discussion.

Thanks again!! :Clap:

Alana

www.AlanaMorales.com (http://www.AlanaMorales.com)

Co-Host, Mom Writer's Talk Radio
www.MomWritersTalkRadio.com (http://www.MomWritersTalkRadio.com)

[MadScientistMatt]

Jenna,

What are your thoughts on including personal anecdotes in How-To books? Are there times when this is a bad idea? Times when it is almost essential?

[dee3]

Jenna,
I have been really holding off on trying to write a nutrition book for children as I am a dietitian and truly feel the need for the obese childrens area, but...I just feel so overwhelmed at taking the plunge. I guess I feel insecure about what I am allowed to copy and what I am not allowed. I had always been taught if you see something in three other publications, you do not need to cite it. I would appreciate any help in this area or any suggestions on any books that may help me.


Thanks for helping me in my two dream aeas of writing...greeting cards and nonfiction! We really are blessed to have you and this website!

[MadScientistMatt]

Jenna,

I have another question. In Make a Real Living as a Freelance Writer, you emphasized using primary sources and turning in additional source material with articles. How important is that for books? Will I need a list of sources? Is using things like magazine articles and other books less of a problem with books than articles?

[aka eraser]

Matt, my name's not Jenna but I thought I'd give you my take on your first question at least.

Unless you're writing a scholarly tome, personal anecdotes can add much-needed tang to a book. Mine were often set apart as sidebars and they worked well that way. If they fit the subject matter and help illustrate a point, I don't think many editors would object.

Oh what the heck, I'll take a crack at your 2nd q too. I'm assuming you cite sources along the way. You may or may not have to turn in your sources when your ms is accepted but you should certainly have the list handy for reference in case questions come up during the editing process. The pub might want the list for the appendix too.

[MadScientistMatt]

Oh what the heck, I'll take a crack at your 2nd q too. I'm assuming you cite sources along the way. You may or may not have to turn in your sources when your ms is accepted but you should certainly have the list handy for reference in case questions come up during the editing process. The pub might want the list for the appendix too.

Thank you, Frank. The sources normally aren't cited in the text except for some cases where I state that such-and-such a guru has this or that rule of thumb. Usually the sources are more along the lines of general references. There is an appendix of books for further reading. I might as well start on a list of source material that I've used, even if only I see it.

[JennaGlatzer]

Hi!

Okay, I'll take a stab at the questions, then do the next lesson tonight, I hope.

Jenna,
I guess I feel insecure about what I am allowed to copy and what I am not allowed. I had always been taught if you see something in three other publications, you do not need to cite it.

Interesting... but not quite true. I'll give you an example from the sleep book I'm working on: I can probably find several magazine articles and books that say that up to 17 percent of children sleepwalk, but my editor (and some readers) are still going to want to know where that figure came from. So I'm going to cite two medical journal studies that examined the prevalence of sleepwalking-- these journal articles are probably where all those other articles got their stats, anyway, so the magazine articles become "secondary sources" and the journal articles are the "primary sources." Also, I know that zolpidem is sometimes associated with sleepwalking, and I can probably find that info in a bunch of places, but I want to either quote a sleep expert saying so, or cite a peer-reviewed journal or fact sheet from a reputable organization-- so I'm citing case studies published in the sleep literature (which I can find on pubmed.com).

When in doubt, cite.

Matt: Regarding primary sources and books, you're right that the rules are generally more relaxed with books. Whenever possible, you still want a primary source, but I'd say the hierarchy goes something like this, in order of desirability for a citation:

1. Peer-reviewed journal
2. Government publication (public domain)
3. Expert's direct quote to you
4. Fact sheet or other publication from a professional organization/nonprofit organization on the topic (for example, I'd cite info I found on the American Psychological Association's website or publications before I'd cite a self-help book)
5. Academic book/encyclopedia
6. Expert's direct quote, as published elsewhere and cited as such within the text (i.e., "as so-and-so said in the January, 2005 issue of The New Yorker...")
7. Consumer book
8. Newspaper article
9. Magazine article
10. Online article (not acceptable unless it's a reputable source-- never, ever cite Wikipedia, for example)

Sometimes it's unavoidable-- if the material you need is available only in another book or magazine, you'll either have to track down the author and try to get a direct quote, or cite the source as a book or article.

Each editor/publisher is a little different, but most will expect you to provide footnotes if the material calls for it. They may publish it as an appendix, or they may simply want it to run by the legal department. (Simon & Schuster's legal eagles called my coauthors today to make sure that a table I included and cited is in the public domain.)

I've not yet run into a book editor who completely disallows any one category for citations, but it's possible... and once you have a contract, you should ask for that publisher's style guide, permissions forms, and anything else they have on hand. Make sure you ask for it-- almost every time I've written a book, the editor hasn't sent it to me until I asked. And that can be a pain... I just realized I hadn't asked Avery for their style guidelines, so I did it last week and found that I've been handling headings and subheadings wrong (they want ALL CAPS for A-heads and Mixed Caps for B-heads), and that they have specific rules for intros and conclusions that I hadn't followed (a few paragraphs of intro before the first A-head, but never several pages before the first A-head). Most likely, any rules for citations will be in the style guide.

How-to books and anecdotes: Vital, in most cases. As Frank said, if they feel out of place, you can always put them into sidebars or as insets or other ways of visually setting them apart.

Okay, next lesson coming soon. :)

[Lauri B]

Regarding the Amazon numbers, most publishers don't pay a whole lot of attention to them, since they are self-referential. If you have access to Bookscan and can find out how well the competition is actually selling, that's much better.

[LloydBrown]

In mentioning the competition, suppose you're submitting to that publisher? How does that change your proposal (if at all)?

[KelseyF]

Jenna, what do you say about referencing Amazon? Seems like a good reference to me, but then again, I'm working on my first proposal.

[DeePower]

Lack of a platform is one of the most common reasons editors (and agents) reject nonfiction proposals. What exactly is a platform?

All industries need buzzwords. They are like secret handshakes you can use to determine whose an industry insider and who’s not. And they must change with a certain frequency, like passwords.

By far the hottest buzzword in the publishing industry today is PLATFORM. This simply means the various skills, contacts, media access, personality, enthusiasm, or established fan base an author brings to the table, that can result in higher sales for his/her books. An author with a national radio show would be highly prized by a publisher, because potentially millions of people listen to him each day or each week. A marketing director at a chain bookstore told us that these days it isn’t enough for an author to just show up at a book signing and, well, sign books. Having an interesting, entertaining presentation to give the audience helps the bookstore create interest in the event and draw more people.

You can read the rest of the article at
http://www.brianhillanddeepower.com/platform.html

Dee

Dee

[Anastacia]

Do non-fiction books need agents? Or should you just contact the publisher directly?

[DeePower]

I've done both and I would prefer an agent.

It is true that nonfiction is easier to get published without an agent than fiction. However, an agent does more than just find a publisher, they also negotiate the contract and follow up on royalty statements.

If you decide to go without an agent, the challenge is finding the specific editors at the publishing houses that are the right contact. http://.www.publishersmarketplace.com has a deal database that is searchable by genre. The deals include the publishing house, editor at the house that acquired the project, agent, description of the book and author.
It's not free, but the fee is minimal, something like $20 per month.

Below is an example of the type of information provided.

Journalist Lisa Guernsey's SCREEN TIME, looking at what's good, what's bad, and what doesn't matter when it comes to TV, movies, and games for children up to age 4, to Jo Ann Miller at Basic, in a very nice deal, for publication in September 2007, by Jim Levine at Levine Greenberg Literary Agency (world).


You can then find the contact info for the Levine Greenber Literary Agency using the contact database at publishersmarketplace.com

Dee

[Maladroit]

Jenna, thanks for the time you are spending on this!
I wrote a proposal 2-years ago and my book came out in mid-Dec.!
:hooray:
As a n00b... I'd to add my own 2-cents.

When I wrote my proposal, I used the TOC as a vaulting board. Rather than making it a page that the publisher/editor merely glazed over, I wrote each chapter title, then a short, humorous description. Later, when the publisher contacted my agent and accepted the book, they told her they wished every proposal was as entertaining and fun to read as mine.

All I did was juice the Table of Contents and tried to make them laugh. I'll admit it was a little cocky, but I preferred to err on the side of self-confident versus "cutesy."

So, I advocate a sense of humor and some confidence when writing a proposal. (Maybe you already know this). But try to envision what it must be like for readers to go through all these proposals every day for 48-50 weeks per year. Give the editors a breath of fresh air. Entertain them and you might just stand out over the "ho-hums."

It's how I got my agent and it's how I got my first real book deal.

I'm now writing a new proposal and checked in here for help from JG.
She is the best tutor on the Web!

Thanks again, Jenna!
Mac
....The NetWits

[KelseyF]

A quick question about sample material...

Is it necessary to do the *first* 15 pages of the book in that order as the sample material. The reason I ask is because my book has three different parts. The first part is made up of detailed descriptions of the people that are a part of what I am writing about, the second is the main chunk/reason for the book, and tips and trivia are dispersed throughout each of those. Can I include a sample from each of these three things so that they total 15 pages or will doing so just make my book look confusing.

As if my description of my question wasn't confusing enough, right? :)

[aka eraser]

Is it a particular publisher or agent you're targeting? I ask because of the "first 15 pages" requirement. Different pubs/agents want different things. Some may request the first 50 pages - others might want the first three chapters - and yet another may want just the proposal/synopsis. You need to bone up on the requirements of the specific publisher/agent you're after.

[JennaGlatzer]

Hi again! OK, a few answers, then the next lesson.

In mentioning the competition, suppose you're submitting to that publisher? How does that change your proposal (if at all)?

It probably doesn't-- I'd just be extra-careful to make sure you haven't said anything insulting about books they've published. Publishers don't want to compete with their own titles, so you have to emphasize how your book is not going to steal sales from their "competing" book/s, but be a welcome addition to that audience's shelf-- or hit a slightly different demographic. Example: You know that Nomad has just published The Street-Smart Writer, so they're not going to publish another book on writing scams unless you can prove that it's different enough from mine that it won't take away sales from my book. So, for example, you might emphasize that your book about writing scams is a step-by-step guide to the small claims court process, which is just one tiny part of my book. (Okay, that's really a niche book, but you get the drift, I'm sure.)

This is actually what helps me shape the idea for my books sometimes. I see what's out there, and I think about it from their publishers' perspectives: What can I add to this topic, or how can I cover it in such a way that it won't be too similar to what's already available to readers?

Jenna, what do you say about referencing Amazon?

In what way? When you're looking for competing books? Yes, it's certainly a good place to discover what else is available on your subject, but it's also necessary to check bookstores, for a simple reason: Many, many books on Amazon are self-published, vanity published, published by tiny presses that have no bookstore distribution, out of print, not technically out of print but no longer available in stores, etc. And you can't always tell by the name of the publisher-- some you'll immediately recognize as vanity presses (Xlibris, iUniverse, PublishAmerica, etc.), but there are many, many others with names you wouldn't recognize. So, chances are, Amazon will show you lots of results that aren't appropriate for your competition section because they aren't truly competition. Publishers don't count them. The ones you see on bookstore shelves are the ones that matter.

Of course, I could have totally misinterpreted your question, in which case, feel free to clarify.

Do non-fiction books need agents? Or should you just contact the publisher directly?

You really can do it either way, or both at the same time. As Dee said, there are certainly benefits to having an agent, but I don't always prefer using one.

If I'm writing a niche book and I know it's not going to interest a major publisher and garner a big advance, I'd probably rather negotiate the deal myself and have a publishing attorney review the contract. My reason is very simply financial: There's nowhere near as much leeway in advances with smaller houses. That is, an agent may be able to get me an extra $20 grand from Simon & Schuster, thus easily "earning her keep." That agent may not be able to get me one penny more from a smaller house than I could have gotten on my own, thus I've just "given away" 15% of all my earnings from that book, and the benefits to me aren't enough to justify that. (I'm speaking from a later point in my career, of course: you might want an agent just to have someone to talk to about the publication process and to do a little hand-holding. For me, though, about the only thing agents have ever done for me once the contract is signed is to deliver the checks. If they're late, the agent will bug the publisher for me so I don't have to. But that's happened only twice, and the checks were only two weeks late.)

But, going backward to the "making the deal" aspect, a good agent knows more about publishers' needs than you or I could. They talk to editors, they find out what particular editors are looking for, they get to know an editor's taste, etc. They can help you get read faster, and they can get you read at houses that don't accept unagented submissions.

I wrote a proposal 2-years ago and my book came out in mid-Dec.!

MAC! Great to see you here! Uh-oh, this could be confusing. I also call MacAllister Mac. Can I call you KMac? ;) CONGRATS on the new book! I'm gonna go check it out after I'm done with this.

Is it necessary to do the *first* 15 pages of the book in that order as the sample material. The reason I ask is because my book has three different parts.

Good question, and no! Not necessary for it to be the first (however many) pages. I'll address sample material more in depth at the end of the proposal tutorial, but in short, I've often written "sample material" that comes from more than one chapter.

For example, in the bullying book I'm co-writing with Joel Haber, we chose to include several pages from different sections because it was necessary to show his specific approach. If we had just included the first chapter or two, it would have been mostly an overview of what bullying is, the stats on bullying, the basic concepts. However, because there are many books about bullying on the market, that's not good enough to show a publisher what's going to make this book unique. To do that, we wanted to show some of the actual techniques, sample scripts for parents to use, case studies, etc., and those had to come from later chapters. Therefore, we pulled-- I think-- sections from three chapters.

The 15 pages comment did puzzle me a little. Is that something I said earlier? If so, it was definitely meant as an estimate and not as a solid number...

Most publishers ask to see 1-3 sample chapters. I tend to submit about 15-25 pages of sample material-- sometimes it's sequential and sometimes it's not, depending on what makes sense for the book. Like I said, I'll get more in depth on this later, but that's my quick explanation on it.

Next lesson coming soon.

[thewriterslife]

Jenna, someone told me that in Jeff Herman's book on proposals (his latest, I think), he quotes someone who got a huge publishing deal but what made it stand out in his opinion was the fact that she included some kind of "fake" book cover she had either made or had someone do for her included with her proposal. Probably printed it out and set it on top of the other pages of her manuscript is what I'm thinking. Have you ever heard of this?

Dorothy

[Maladroit]

OK, this is going to sound like a question from a real n00bster, but I am being drawn toward this idea with the same degree of gravitational pull that I feel when cruising by a McDonald's -- while hungry and fully-aware that there's a "buy one/get one free sale on Big Macs.

In my proposal Sample Chapter, I really want to include two photos I plan to use in the finished book.
Is it completely unacceptable to include photos/graphics in a proposal?
I was under the impression that this is unprofessional.
If so, then do I make note of the placement of the photo only? Or do I ignore any mention of it?

Here is a sample from my book on online auction fraud and phishing scammers:

The following graphic is a typical message you may find inside a fraudulent eBay auction description block. You will notice the search terms I used in locating these scams in the block below.
http://ultimategto.com/icongraf/scammer01.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/Goatman72/contact_fraud1.jpg


Once you have observed several dozen of these bogus listings on eBay or other auction websites they will become instantly recognizable. You can practice finding them by using eBay’s Advanced Search option.
In the search text box, type the words, “my address was spammed” or “email me directly.” Other text searches that will produce scam listings are, “won’t be able to respond” and “email storage limit”.
Again, using the email address is the scammer’s first attempt to pull you off eBay and into his web of deceptive emails and fraud shipping or escrow websites.


Is it a bad idea to use graphics/photos in a proposal?
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteShrug.gif

[MacAllister]

Maladroit--since Jenna is on a short hiatus, this might be an excellent question for Nomad, over in "Ask the Editor."

:)

[Maladroit]

Maladroit--since Jenna is on a short hiatus, this might be an excellent question for Nomad, over in "Ask the Editor."

:)

Mac,
Can't anyone else answer here?
I posted the same thing there (hate double posting -- it's bad) and the crickets are chirpin' in that thread.
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Has anyone here ever imbedded photos in their NF proposals?

Thanks,
Mac II

[aka eraser]

I haven't done it but I can't for the life of me think why it should be a no-no. If you believe it adds to your presentation, I'd say go for it. (But check what Lauri has to say - she's an acquistions editor.)

[Lauri B]

Jenna, someone told me that in Jeff Herman's book on proposals (his latest, I think), he quotes someone who got a huge publishing deal but what made it stand out in his opinion was the fact that she included some kind of "fake" book cover she had either made or had someone do for her included with her proposal. Probably printed it out and set it on top of the other pages of her manuscript is what I'm thinking. Have you ever heard of this?

Dorothy
I receive lots of proposals from people who have made fake book covers as part of their proposal. It doesn't do a thing for me one way or another. It's highly unlikely that we'd use a cover that we didn't create in-house, and I am only interested in what's inside the proposal, not how it's packaged.

[Lauri B]

Mac,
Can't anyone else answer here?
I posted the same thing there (hate double posting -- it's bad) and the crickets are chirpin' in that thread.
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Has anyone here ever imbedded photos in their NF proposals?

Thanks,
Mac II

Hi Maladroit,
If the photo is relevant and important to the pitch you're making, then it's no problem to include it in your proposal. If it's a photo of your cat or something, then leave it out.

[JNLister]

Regarding using Amazon rankings as evidence of sales levels, I'd be extremely wary of taking a snapshot figure. Unless you are dealing with genuine bestsellers (top 1000 or so), the ranking is more of a guide to "how long since the last copy sold" than "how many copies have been sold recently/ever".

What is worth checking is www.titlez.com (http://www.titlez.com) which tracks books on Amazon (for lower-ranked books you will have to specifically ask it to start tracking) and gives you average sales figures for the past week, month and lifetime. These are far more accurate guides to general sales levels.

They may also give you some insight into seasonal spikes in sales, and the general pattern of selling.

[rich]

I just found this thread because I was looking for one like it.

Four days ago I decided to write what might be called a memoir, but it would be a series of 1000 to 2000 word personal experiences about growing up in Brooklyn in the 50's and 60's. I have been putting this off for some time because some experiences are comic, and others are tragic. Four days ago I decided they would all be comic, regardless of how much tragic content there would be in some of the stories. Hope you all aren't too confused.

So much of it depends on writing style that I'm concerned about being able to put forth a decent proposal. Does this make sense?

[aka eraser]

Rich, sometimes the line blurs between nonfiction and memoir. I don't think you could sell what you're suggesting via a typical nonfic proposal. I think your best bet is to get a goodly number of those stories written, enough so that you're confident there's a book's-worth of them in you, and then submit via the query + sample chapters route.

Check out our Life Story Writing board. I think what you're describing is closer to what's going on there.

[rich]

Thanks. I'll check. May the Salmon be with you.

[hollowbone]

Hi,
I'm a newbie. I have a finished work on Reiki energy healing, obviously a New Age book!
Any tips on how to get it into physical form?
Thanks,
Hollowbone

as in...
be the hollowbone that spirit works through (Native American)

[tony1]

I'm interested in proposing a coffee table book on a particular sporting event. I have looked for other books like it, and to my very delighted suprise, they're isn't any!My question is, I need a photographer? Now do I find one in the phone book, and offer him a piece of the book, or does the publisher take care of all this (that is if they like the book). Tony1

[JennaGlatzer]

OK, first the questions, then I'll do the next long-overdue lesson. ;)

Mal: Yes, I did once embed photos into a proposal because they helped make the point, like yours does. I think you're fine. Just make sure it's high-res enough to print well.

Rich, Frank's right (surprise). Memoirs are always sort of a grey area regarding proposals. I recently wrote a proposal for someone's memoir and it not only sold, but the proposal itself got passed around just for enjoyment, like a "mini-book," so I'll tell you what I did--

I still had all the same sections as a usual proposal. It's just that I tried to make the overview feel like it could have been part of the book, I kept the other sections short, and I concentrated more on the sample chapters. The "competition" section felt weird-- it's not like people are going to find the same material in someone else's memoir, so it's a direct choice between A and B-- but I soon realized that I could use this more as an extension of the marketing section by pointing out nicely-selling books that were similar in audience, and why my book would capture that same audience and more.

But in another case, for a more winding memoir that wasn't as easily fit into the proposal structure, I just sent around sample chapters with a query that included about two or three paragraphs of overview.

Hollowbone: That's what this thread is all about. Even if you've already written the book, publishers still want to see a book proposal first. You're in a better position to write it now because there's no guesswork-- you know exactly what the book covers.

Tony: I think it would be usual for the publisher to hire a photographer. It's always a risk when a writer hires an illustrator or photographer-- the publisher could turn the project down because of the artwork.

Back in a flash.

[Hyperbole]

Thanks for teaching us, Jenna!

[Lauri B]

I'm interested in proposing a coffee table book on a particular sporting event. I have looked for other books like it, and to my very delighted suprise, they're isn't any!My question is, I need a photographer? Now do I find one in the phone book, and offer him a piece of the book, or does the publisher take care of all this (that is if they like the book). Tony1

Hi Tony,
We publish a four-color coffee table book of a particular event every time it occurs. Just a warning: four-color coffee table books are very expensive to produce, and as a general rule, coffee table books don't make much money for a publisher. That may be why there aren't any books on your event. On the other hand, you may be in a great position to pitch one. Usually coffee table books covering an event rely on an expert or well-known name in the field, and/or photographers known for shooting hte subject matter of the event. If you aren't a well-known expert, it would be a good idea to try to recruit one to at least contribute a foreword or act as a contributing writer.

Good luck!

[Anastacia]

What if there IS a competing book? I am in process of working with a doctor on a book proposal. Looking through Amazon revealed a very similar book to the one we have in mind.

What now? Should I still think about writing it? Look at the competing book closely to figure out how we can write ours with a different slant?

Any advice is most appreciated.

[Branwyn]

This is great. I'm starting on a non-fiction book, while I shop my fiction around.

[Branwyn]

As far as the market, do you absolutely have to have stats? How would one go about finding out how many wiccans there are, or pagans?

[nancy02664]

This most recent post on publicity rocks. Thanks, Jenna, for all the useful info.

[aka eraser]

What if there IS a competing book? I am in process of working with a doctor on a book proposal. Looking through Amazon revealed a very similar book to the one we have in mind.

What now? Should I still think about writing it? Look at the competing book closely to figure out how we can write ours with a different slant?

Any advice is most appreciated.

By all means both you and the doctor should scope out the competing title. One or both of you may well come up with something(s) that set your project apart. And if you don't, you've saved yourself a lot of time and trouble.

[awatkins]

What if there IS a competing book? I am in process of working with a doctor on a book proposal. Looking through Amazon revealed a very similar book to the one we have in mind.



One thing to check for when scoping out the competition is the publishing date. When was the competing book published (that info will be available on the Amazon listing)? If it's several years old, then you very likely will have updated information to put in your book. This will give your project's proposal a nice little something extra.

[perky_ms_d]

Hi, Jenna, this is Geraldine from the Philippines. Your free lessons in writing is such a great help for me. I have no experience in writing (only for personal ones) but am hoping that basic lessons like this will help me to become a writer i want to be.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Jenna has excellent advice on getting past the hidden dragon, the "subject matter expert".

Over the years, I've been the recipient of book proposals, not as a publisher, but as a reviewer of non-fiction proposals for books that fall into my areas of expertise. If a publisher's in-house staff doesn't have a broad enough background to review the proposals, they outsource them to working professionals in that field. I occasionally hurl myself on a dud of a proposal to save the publisher's bottom line.

The publishers usually send a questionnaire with the complete author's proposal package, asking very specific questions about the parts of the proposal Jenna has explained.

Also, most of the publishers have asked the same core question at the end: If we accepted this proposal, would you buy the book for your own use? Would you recommend buying this book to someone in this book's target audience? In other words, is this book worth publishing?

Outstandingly BAD proposals, and the reasons I recommended rejecting them:

The author whose proposal mentioned how much money expected to be paid for his book ... in several places. But having it in the first paragraph was a bit over the top. Also, his supposedly "crack-proof" workbook files, from which he planned to make a lot of money by selling new files, took me less than three minutes to crack and copy. I sent the copy back with the proposal.
The author whose proposed class text and workbook had students doing advanced tasks before they learned how to do the underlying ones. Like starting with Escoffier before Cooking for Dummies. It was obvious he had never tested his methods on real students.
The author who listed feeble competition and knocked down the strawmen with disdain, when I had two of the heavy-hitters he didn't mention sitting on my desk. Well-thumbed. With underlining, highlighting and sticky notes.
Along the same lines, the author who mis-represented those two books' scope and depth of coverage. He dismissed them as "simplistic and useful only for amateurs" when their main users were working professionals who really wanted a clear, simple how-to book.
The author whose included CV was longer than the book proposal and included everything, even his activities as the leader of a local scout troop. Even worse, he tended to double-dip, so the scout leading was no only under "community service" but "leadership". Erf!
The author who claimed X years of experience in a field that had been in existence for 5 years less than he claimed.
etc.


Go now, and do as Jenna hath told thee, for verily she speaketh words of wisdom.

[LisaM11463]

I'm hoping that perhaps someone can point out where exactly I am going wrong in writing my query. Here it is:

Dear Mr. Smith,

Did you know that some of the greatest writers of all times were afflicted with epilepsy? Fyodor Dostoevsky, Edgar Allen Poe, Lewis Carroll and Charles Dickens are all believed to have been afflicted.

More than 3 million people in the U.S. are afflicted--50 million worldwide. This year alone, another 200,000 people in the U.S. will be diagnosed with epilepsy. It is the third most common neurological disease in the U.S. after Alzheimer's disease and stroke. It is equal in prevalence to cerebral palsy, multiple sclerosis and Parkinson's disease.

Epilepsy is among the least understood chronic medical conditions, even though one in three adults knows someone with the disorder. Temporal lobe epilepsy is the most common form of epilepsy, yet only 1% of patients who could benefit from having brain surgery ever try it.

"Free at Last, My Lifetime Struggle to Overcome Epilepsy" is the story of my battle for over thirty years, the trials and tribulations as well as the ridicule and discrimination which I had to endure. It also talks about the molestation I endured by one of my doctors, my fifteen-and-a-half hour brain surgery which I underwent, my near death experience in 2005, my public speaking engagements on behalf of others with epilepsy so that I may help others who are not aware there are surgical procedures out there that could possibly help them as well. Last, but certainly not least, it talks of the two chat rooms I created online eleven years ago to counsel the over sixteen hundred people to date around the world who needed answers, a shoulder to cry on, information on brain surgery, and simply a confidant to talk to who knows just what they are going through.

Readers have told me that my book is honest, funny, tragic and informative, as well as a chance to give so many others hope for a positive and seizure-free future. Would you like to see a proposal? My manuscript is ready to be sent at your request.

Sincerely,

Mrs. Lisa-Marie Kinsman


Can someone please tell me just what I am doing wrong, and what I can do to catch the eye of a literary agent willing to take me on as a client? Thank you in advance.

Lisa-Marie

[mrsrgm]

I'm no expert in writing a query (read that: NO EXPERT), but I think it would sound stronger if the first sentence were a statement of fact (Some of the greatest writers of all time were afflicted with epilepsy), instead of a question. That is pretty much the extent of my knowledge... :]]

[LisaM11463]

Thank you for your response mrs. I am just getting so discouraged that there are not any open minded literary agents, as of yet, that are willing to take me and my autobiography on.

It's been suggested to me that I try a vanity publisher, but I am just not willing to take that path as I have worked very hard on this book and have done volunteer work running two epilepsy chat rooms online for the last eleven years now. I've pretty much covered the literary agents on the east coast. Now I'm trying lit agents in the central U.S.

Lisa-Marie

[Lauri B]

I'm hoping that perhaps someone can point out where exactly I am going wrong in writing my query. Here it is:

Dear Mr. Smith,

Did you know that some of the greatest writers of all times were afflicted with epilepsy? Fyodor Dostoevsky, Edgar Allen Poe, Lewis Carroll and Charles Dickens are all believed to have been afflicted.

More than 3 million people in the U.S. are afflicted--50 million worldwide. This year alone, another 200,000 people in the U.S. will be diagnosed with epilepsy. It is the third most common neurological disease in the U.S. after Alzheimer's disease and stroke. It is equal in prevalence to cerebral palsy, multiple sclerosis and Parkinson's disease.

Epilepsy is among the least understood chronic medical conditions, even though one in three adults knows someone with the disorder. Temporal lobe epilepsy is the most common form of epilepsy, yet only 1% of patients who could benefit from having brain surgery ever try it.

"Free at Last, My Lifetime Struggle to Overcome Epilepsy" is the story of my battle for over thirty years, the trials and tribulations as well as the ridicule and discrimination which I had to endure. It also talks about the molestation I endured by one of my doctors, my fifteen-and-a-half hour brain surgery which I underwent, my near death experience in 2005, my public speaking engagements on behalf of others with epilepsy so that I may help others who are not aware there are surgical procedures out there that could possibly help them as well. Last, but certainly not least, it talks of the two chat rooms I created online eleven years ago to counsel the over sixteen hundred people to date around the world who needed answers, a shoulder to cry on, information on brain surgery, and simply a confidant to talk to who knows just what they are going through.

Readers have told me that my book is honest, funny, tragic and informative, as well as a chance to give so many others hope for a positive and seizure-free future. Would you like to see a proposal? My manuscript is ready to be sent at your request.

Sincerely,

Mrs. Lisa-Marie Kinsman


Can someone please tell me just what I am doing wrong, and what I can do to catch the eye of a literary agent willing to take me on as a client? Thank you in advance.

Lisa-Marie

Hi Lisa-Marie,
I think where you get off track is focusing your book on your experiences rather than making it a how-to that incorporates your experiences. You start off strong by talking about how brain surgery can help epileptics but few try it. I thought that was what your book was going to be about. Then you veer off into your own personal struggles. While I'm sure they are interesting and moving, they aren't going to interest an editor who is trying to determine whether your book will fit well into the market. How will others benefit from your knowledge? Is the fact that you were molested by your doctor relevant to living with and overcoming epilepsy? Your chat room and support group information is interesting, but if you could incorporate your story into how all epileptics can benefit from support and access to information, it would be more appealing to a publisher.

Memoirs are rarely as interesting to readers as they are to the author. They are notoriously difficult to market unless there is a real hook (the author is a celebrity, the author is an acknowledged national expert in the field, the author has great connections and can get booked on national tv talk shows, etc.).
Good luck!

[Lolly]

Thank you, Jenna, for starting this thread. I'm really enjoying reading it. So far, my proposal has met all your criteria for publishing, except for one big one: I don't have a platform. I'm writing a Christian book about a problem that I think is threatening the church. However, I don't have a radio show or magazine, I don't moderate anything (unless you want to make me a moderator here :D ), and I can only wish I had ever appeared on TV. Do you have any reccomendations for how to go about getting one?


I might add that I'm a minister for a major denomination. And in fact, I'm goint to give a speech on my topic at a future district meeting. Does that count as a platform? I just ask because the meeting is not national. Our denomination is international, though, so in a sense I could travel to any of our churches in the world and talk about this. We also have a denominational magazine, so I suppose I could work up an article on the subject for them.

[Writer/Observer]

thank you Jenna for the vital info. I have a few questions regarding a bio-
1. Do I send the publisher copies of photos and how many?
2. Should I include things that I may not be able to back up? *gov't lost certain papers

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

It feels like you have three main points: epilepsy affects a lot of people, you are one of them, and here's how you are living with it. Stripping the query down to tightly focus on those things ... how does it read?


Did you know that some of the greatest writers of all times were afflicted with epilepsy? Fyodor Dostoevsky, Edgar Allen Poe, Lewis Carroll and Charles Dickens are all believed to have been afflicted.

Deleted: it's not relevant that some famous writers were epileptic

More than 3 million people in the U.S. are afflicted with epilepsy and another 200,000 will be diagnosed this year. It is the third most common neurological disease in the U.S. after Alzheimer's disease and stroke. It is equal in prevalence to cerebral palsy, multiple sclerosis and Parkinson's disease.

Epilepsy is among the least understood chronic medical conditions, even though one in three adults knows someone with the disorder. Temporal lobe epilepsy is the most common form of epilepsy, yet only 1% of patients who could benefit from having brain surgery ever try it.

"Free at Last, My Lifetime Struggle to Overcome Epilepsy" is the story of my battle for over thirty years, the trials and tribulations as well as the ridicule and discrimination which I had to endure. It also talks about the molestation I endured by one of my doctors, the fifteen-and-a-half hour brain surgery which I underwent, my near death experience in 2005, my public speaking engagements on behalf of others with epilepsy so that I may help others who are not aware there are surgical procedures out there that could possibly help them as well. Last, but certainly not least, it talks of the two chat rooms I created online eleven years ago to counsel the over sixteen hundred people to date around the world who needed answers, a shoulder to cry on, information on brain surgery, and simply a confidant to talk to who knows just what they are going through.

Readers have told me that my book is honest, funny, tragic and informative, as well as a chance to give so many others hope for a positive and seizure-free future. Would you like to see a proposal? My manuscript is ready to be sent at your request.

What I do not get from this proposal is what slant your book has ... is this a personal memoir, as indicated in the next to last paragraph, or a "how to cope" book as indicated in the last paragraph?

You can't do both in the same book. The personal memoir is less salable than the "how to cope" book.

I'm with Nomad ... this could be a good "how to live with it" book for epileptics if you take your experiences and write a book with the information you and your family and friends didn't have, the information that would have made your life better.

[JennaGlatzer]

Hi! I know, took me long enough to get back to this thread. A few quick points:

Lolly: being a minister is a platform itself, but yes, you're on the right track when you talk about speaking at other churches and writing for religious magazines. If I were you, I'd try getting my feet wet in those types of areas (doing more speaking gigs and writing a few articles) to show the publisher what I could do.

Tsu: Great advice. Thanks for chiming in!

Writer/Observer: Photos with the bio? You mean, like, your author photo? You don't need to include any copies at this point. If you have a nice author photo, you can include one with the proposal, but it's not necessary. I'm not sure what kinds of irreplacable documents you're talking about... if you're talking about things that would be required for fact-checking, you won't need to worry about that until you turn in the actual manuscript, and no one's ever asked me for the original documents. Photocopies work fine for that. If you're talking about things that would actually need to be photographed to be reproduced in the book itself, you'd probably have to ship the originals to the publisher (insured mail), but only when it actually comes time to do the book layout and design.

Lisa-Marie, if you need more feedback, there's a "Query Letter" section on the Share Your Work board here. I've heard from several writers who've said that the folks on that board have helped them a great deal. But just from the quick look I've had, I agree with Nomad and Tsu. If I were an agent, I wouldn't pick it up either-- and that's not meant to be an insult, but a point about the market. It's not a matter of being "open minded" as an agent, it's a matter of understanding what the reading public buys.

A large number of people want to write memoirs about overcoming or living with a particular medical condition, but that's rarely something the public wants to read. Most people, when looking for answers, either seek out books by doctors who are noted experts in the field, or-- like Nomad suggests-- books from people who have the condition, but are primarily resource books with personal experience included, NOT memoirs with a little bit of how-to/self-help added.

Not sure if I mentioned this one upthread, but one of my first books was an anthology of stories from people who've overcome anxiety disorders. Before the publisher would buy it, they wanted me to take on a co-writer: a psychologist with expertise on anxiety disorders. He wrote commentary after each person's story. And the fact that there were 33 stories, instead of just mine, made it more appealing to the publisher. It was tightly focused on anxiety-related stuff only, not general memoir. And even though I thought people would really, really want to read about other people's experiences with anxiety disorders, it's not a great-selling book. All the best-selling books in that category are straight-up "how to beat anxiety" books, not memoir-type books.

I'm not suggesting that you need to restructure it in the same way I did, but I do think you'll need to reframe it. You have a good platform to work with.

Back soon with the next lesson.

[Steven Pollack]

A reason why people might not like memoir personal issue books is that reading of someone elses story might 1) make you feel inferior for not similary succeeding and 2) it might teach them about some new anxiety or problem they had not already experienced and mess them up even more.

This was my initial reaction.

Steve

[Talia]

Jenna

Thank you for the wonderful information on writing a NF book proposal. The examples from your own work help a lot.

The platform is of course the hardest part - establishing it and proving it - I liked the solid examples that you gave. I was on TV for a while and I have all the videos. After reading your thread I can see it would be worthwhile getting extracts on a DVD to send to people or perhaps include clips on my website. Unfortunately it's past tense but it shows that I'm comfortable on TV and experienced.

Now I have to go lasso me a celebrity to endorse my book...

[FireMedic 105]

I haven't done it but I can't for the life of me think why it should be a no-no. If you believe it adds to your presentation, I'd say go for it. (But check what Lauri has to say - she's an acquistions editor.)

I did a page with photos....not saying it worked but I have a few publishers looking at the proposal and ms.

[whitepuppy]

I'm trying to find a publisher for my book, but I;m really having a hard time here. I'm a psychic and wanted to put my story out there for people to read and understand. I've been told dozens of time "I wish I could do what you do" only to tell them "no you don't". My book is about growing up as a pcychic, and how a child have deal with it from a young age. Trying to understand why other poeple are scared of you and don't want you around thier children and why no one wants to date a teenager who talks and sees dead people.My family dates (my psychic abilitiy) it back to about age 5. I want people that psychic's aren't born adults, and that it's not all glammer going to crime scenes. If any one can help I could really use it. thanks donna

[JennaGlatzer]

Have you written a proposal, Donna? A query letter? If so, you may want to post it on the Share Your Work board, where people can critique it.

[jsh]

The Overview

The Overview section is what you might expect: a fairly short summary of the book. Typically 2-5 pages, this is the crux of the proposal. Your job is to create a compelling opener that makes the editor want to read the rest of your proposal. Would this sort of thing work?

"If a book explaining modern physics to the layman asserted that intertia is a force inherent to a body in motion, that is, impetus, the book would be universally dismissed by the learned community. When a book explaining modern economics to the layman asserts that rational means that one seeks to get as much money as one can, no one bats an eye. This is a failure to precisely stick with a basic notion of economics, which generates confusion and objection where none should be.

"Economics is built from an internal mathematical structure, an axiomatic skeleton, that is given flesh and form by the intuitive understanding that the mathematics allow and the irregularities of life that force the theory to change. Just as one need not perceive the skeleton to see the man, one can see economics accurately without knowing the math it is built on. This book is to do just that: systematically build an intuitive understanding of the form of the skeleton that supports the theory. With the help of Buridan's Ass, dollar auctions, and arms races, this book will give the reader a more clear understanding of what economics is, and what economics isn't."

[aka eraser]

No.

[jsh]

No.

Bummer. It's totally compelling to me. :)

[aka eraser]

Sorry to be so abrupt there jsh, but I couldn't resist. ;)

If you were subbing to a publisher specializing in technical/scientific works then I suppose it might. But it's, um...kind of dry. Maybe if you worked in an analogy or two....?

[jsh]

Sorry to be so abrupt there jsh, but I couldn't resist. ;)
Thank you, but there's no need to apologize. You made me laugh!

After the fact I started to wonder whether there was a mistake because it wasn't 2-5 pages long, &c., but I hope you don't think I'm stupid enough to believe two paragraphs qualify as a full four-page intero. :D

I could title it "Phreakazoidalnakednomics: X-treme Choize Theory, Beeyyotch!" and hope books are judged by their covers. :^)

[Little Red Barn]

ahhh Big Thanks Jenna and guys I've booked marked this and I am going to go every single post!...after the holidays! hugs kimmi


ps couldn't resist to look..uh jenna this is a lot to print out...did you write a book on this? thats for sale?

[Hyperbole]

Oh, and I've mentioned this before-- I've sold the vast majority of my books without an agent. From what I've learned here and in my perspective, an agent is more important for new novelists than nonfiction writers... there are few publishers who won't look at a query/proposal from an unagented nonfiction author, at least in my experience. Of course, you must have a contact name and not just a general "Dear Editor" letter, but we'll get to that later.

I'm back at the old mainstay (AW) again after a very long hiatus. And I'm rereading this excellent post. Jenna - I'm on the virge of writing a contract on my first book. I don't have an agent. And I'm getting the feeling I don't need one for this project. HOWEVER, I also don't want to make an idiot mistake on the contract.

Advice??

(I also posted a question in the agent thread and nonfiction threads.)

[doctorcrime]

Jenna,

I am new to this site...and what a find it is ! Several agents asked for a propsal from me and I hadn't a clue what they were requesting.
I shall keep you posted as things progress !
Best of the New Year to everyone !!!

[janie]

Hello. I have written most of a non-fiction health book (whew). I did it ahead of time because I didn't want to be pressured later. Have done many, many revisions...knock on wood!

It's a topic I've been heavily involved with for four years as a patient advocate, so I felt like I'd garnered enough info to do this.

I'm ready to send the stated requirements on this thread to an editor/publisher. I've already done the chapter listing and summaries, but can see I need to do a better introductory letter (Great tips--thank you!) I'm working on that tomorrow. I also have sample chapters to send.

But what thoroughly confuses me is...what publishers?? What editor?

Sure, I can go to the bookstore and see what publishers other health books have used. Is that really the way?? Or do I just check the Editors and Predators website, for example, and simply blindly choose the ones that appear to be good?

I saw one health book that I greatly admire, and notice it was published by Smart Publications five years ago. That was one I leaned towards...yet it's not even listed on the above website.

I'm so confused. Help.

Janie

[K1P1]

Sure, I can go to the bookstore and see what publishers other health books have used. Is that really the way?? Or do I just check the Editors and Predators website, for example, and simply blindly choose the ones that appear to be good?

Yes, that's really the way. Visit the bookstore and make a list of all the publishers that have released books in your subject area or in anything related. You can also use Amazon to do this easily.

Then visit the publishers' web sites to see if they are still active, to see if you'd be embarrassed to be associated with anything else they've published, and to check out their submission guidelines (for example, do they accept unagented submissions?).

Then take your list of possible publishers to the Editors and Predators website, to the Bewares and Background Check forum here, and to all the other suggested web sites listed in the introductory section. Search the Internet for the publishers' names and "complaints." You can also try to track down some of the authors that each publisher has recently published and ask them about their experience. Think of all this as checking the publishers' references.

After you've done this, you'll know which ones you feel most comfortable submitting to and which ones seem to be at the top of the pile. Start submitting to the most desireable one first.

Best of luck to you!

[aka eraser]

Just backing up Maggie's excellent response. It's the route that offers the best chance of success and fewest unhappy surprises.

[janie]

Then take your list of possible publishers to the Editors and Predators website,

I emailed the Editors and Predators site, asking them why Smart Publications wasn't there...they replied that they were dependent on individuals informing them of Publishers...so I have no idea if Smart is good or not.

But THANK YOU for confirming to me what I need to do. I also figure that the best thing is to send your manuscripts etc to several publishers rather than one at a time.

I didn't struggle terribly with writing the book, but for this part of the journey, I feel like I am walking one inch from the wall....i.e. I have NO idea what's next. lol

Janie

[Dantes]

Hello all. New here. Joined primarily because of a budding anxiety disorder. My agent (top-shelf, big-city, well-known, blah, blah) submitted my nonfiction proposal to several pub houses two full weeks prior to Christmas. Agent was certain of a quick sell (more because of the subject than because of me). So far, three rejections, one big-time pub house interested but with major revisions that were deemed unacceptable by me and agent, and six pub houses haven't weighed in yet. I am increasingly sweating this. Palms drip as I type. I thought it would sell by now. Ditto for agent who insists there still is nothing to sweat. Should I keep hounding my agent to hound the pub houses or should I take a valium and relax?

[leslieann226]

Hi All! Jenna, I can NOT begin to thank you enough for all the info contained in this thread! And thanks to all her helpers, too!

I have a question about using personal examples in my book. Is it acceptable to talk about interactions I've had and observed without naming the actual people involved?? Keeping them anonymous?? Would a publisher frown on this?? It's crucial to my book and as I begin the proposal, I've realized I don't know the answer to this. It's a book on parenting with many lessons learned from family and friends.

What'ya think??
Thanks!
Leslie

[Pat~]

Yes, thank you Jenna. I'm going to be reading this thread tonight, slowly, and try to digest it all. I think I'm contemplating writing my 3rd NF endeavor, and it'll be a tough one; I need all the help I can get.

I have a question for you. When writing about your struggle with panic/anxiety attacks, how did you structure your book? Did you write it like a chronological recounting of events, or did you organize it differently? How did you begin; what was the focus of your first chapter?

[rubarbb]

Hi Jenna, I am new at this and seem not to know what I am doing, but here goes. I finished writing a NF book and am ready to send it of to publishers, but don't know where to start lookin' for addresses of companys who accept manuscripts without an agent. Or do I need to get an agent, and if so where do I look to find one I can trust? I'm Lost and am new at this as I mentioned.

I am not even sure that I can navigate around this site. I find it confusing a bit.

Please advise. rubarbb

[Little Red Barn]

Hi Jenna, I am new at this and seem not to know what I am doing, but here goes. I finished writing a NF book and am ready to send it of to publishers, but don't know where to start lookin' for addresses of companys who accept manuscripts without an agent. Or do I need to get an agent, and if so where do I look to find one I can trust? I'm Lost and am new at this as I mentioned.

I am not even sure that I can navigate around this site. I find it confusing a bit.

Please advise. rubarbb

http://www.agentquery.com/ Here you go sweetie. Jenna is probably busy with her new baby. Navigate on this site and good luck and big welcome to AW! :)

Let us know if we can be of further help.

[rubarbb]

Thanks for the reply, have requested a forum buddie. rubarbb

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

You can find all kinds of good info about the site here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34886), here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28185), and here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21659)! Welcome to AW.

Oh! And here's (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23709) good, too!

And here... (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=35)very important. Lots of FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions). There are some kinda silly ones, but just look down the list and click on the ones that interest you.

[eric11210]

OK, I glanced through this thread (and thank you for posting it), but I haven't found information about this. I put up something in the networking/sharing leads forum and only got one response to date.

I'm planning to work on a book together with a dear friend of mine. He writes poetry and wanted to put together a book of his poetry (just for friends and family -- not a commercial enterprise). I can't do poetry to save my life, but I do some beautiful photography (I also do write pretty nice prose ;)).

It occurred to me when someone else mentioned it that maybe we could collaborate. I'd get together some of my favorite nature photos and combine them with his poems to create a coffee table book. I was thinking to self-pub originally (neither of us is doing this to make a lot of money -- it's a labor of love and we both understand it) and if we made back the $150 it would cost for Lulu's publish by you, then we'd be happy beyond belief.

But I was working on the project and said to myself, why not at least try to query it and see if a commercial publisher is interested? The trouble is, I haven't the foggiest idea how to do it. I don't know if I need an agent for a coffee table book (I know you do for regular non-fiction book, but do you do it for a coffee table book or is it more like picture books where you query directly?).

Whether I query an agent or a publisher, what do I need to send them when they request a partial (would they request a partial? Or would they request a full?)? Do I send some sample photos and sample poems? Do I put it together and then print out some sample pages on my laser printer? Do I send professional prints of the photos? I honestly haven't a clue how it would work.

Any and all information would be appreciated. The suggestion so far has been to drop by B&N and see what books have been done with similar themes for coffee table books. Trouble is, even if I find appropriate publishers or agents, I still don't know what I'm supposed to send them. It's not like a regular NF book where I'm supposed to send sample chapters.

My intention is 75 photos paired with 75 poems. All the photos will be nature photos. I have some extraordinary shots of butterflies, birds, animals, landscapes, flowers, etc. to choose from.

Thanks for any and all information.

Eric

[aka eraser]

Hi Eric. Sorry to rain on your parade but you'd best grab an umbrella.

Coffee table books with the kind of (colour) photos you're describing cost LOT$ and LOT$ of money. Much more than most folks could afford to self-publish (unless you also happened to own a small, oil-producing, Middle-Eastern country).

If you hope to get a publisher to ante up the cost for you - it would help if you got pretty famous, pretty soon.

[eric11210]

Well the cost from Lulu per book is around $27 and change per book. I figured it could be priced at $39.99. Like I said, I'm not trying to make a mint from them. If I make back the $150 set up fees from Lulu, then I'd be happy. I'm being realistic about the whole business, but did hope I could find a publisher. . .

Eric

[Talia]

if you hope to find a publisher then i would encourage you to persevere with submitting proposals and also with getting your work and your proposal critiqued to identify ways in which you could improve either the proposal or the writing sample

[Lavinia]

Nevermind

[Farsight]

Momma? Are you there Momma?

As it happens, my primary interest isn't writing. It's physics.

The general public seem to be less interested in physics and technology than they used to be. There's a number of reasons for this, it's a complicated subject, and there are important issues. Too much to go into here. But, I've written a popular science book that I think will turn out to be important.

Well, almost. I've got the last chapter to finish off, and I'm wondering how I can present my acknowledgements in a reader-friendly fashion. One of the outstanding problems I've got is the images. I have 128 of them. In my draft I've simply pulled them off the internet, and I will have issues of copyright. This sounds like hard work, particularly since many of the images could be replaced with other images. For example almost any artistic depiction of a black hole would suffice.

What I'd like to do, is deal with a single party and pay an upfront fee, perhaps with additional monies to be paid later. I've been looking at image libraries on the internet, but was wondering what publishers actually do.

Can you advise?

[yesandno]

Hi, Jenna!

Thanks for all the fabulous information! You've put together quite a resource here.

I have a question about qualifications. I'm considering trying to put together a proposal for a non-fiction book for which I have no real qualifications, other than real-life experience and the ability to reason and research. Should I look for a co-author, since I do not have the important letters after my name? In other words, if I can impress someone with my sample, do I have to worry about my lack of qualifications, or will it still be a problem?

Thanks!

[Lauri B]

Momma? Are you there Momma?

As it happens, my primary interest isn't writing. It's physics.

The general public seem to be less interested in physics and technology than they used to be. There's a number of reasons for this, it's a complicated subject, and there are important issues. Too much to go into here. But, I've written a popular science book that I think will turn out to be important.

Well, almost. I've got the last chapter to finish off, and I'm wondering how I can present my acknowledgements in a reader-friendly fashion. One of the outstanding problems I've got is the images. I have 128 of them. In my draft I've simply pulled them off the internet, and I will have issues of copyright. This sounds like hard work, particularly since many of the images could be replaced with other images. For example almost any artistic depiction of a black hole would suffice.

What I'd like to do, is deal with a single party and pay an upfront fee, perhaps with additional monies to be paid later. I've been looking at image libraries on the internet, but was wondering what publishers actually do.

Can you advise?

Hi there,
Usually the publisher will have a budget for photos, images, etc. They'll contact image libraries or artwork image services, and buy specific images as necessary. It's a total pain to have to find and source images on your own, so I'd recommend waiting and just what you have found online as placeholders. Good luck!
Lauri

[Lauri B]

Hi, Jenna!

Thanks for all the fabulous information! You've put together quite a resource here.

I have a question about qualifications. I'm considering trying to put together a proposal for a non-fiction book for which I have no real qualifications, other than real-life experience and the ability to reason and research. Should I look for a co-author, since I do not have the important letters after my name? In other words, if I can impress someone with my sample, do I have to worry about my lack of qualifications, or will it still be a problem?

Thanks!

Hi Yesandno,
The problem with trying to pitch a nf book on a particular subject when you have no expertise (or expert qualifications such as a degree or professional experience is that you also don't have a platform for promotion (for example, you can write a book about heart disease, but if you're not a cardiologist with letters after your name or in some way affiliated very closely with cardiology or health care, you're sunk). And no platform is the kiss of death for nonfiction. You can certainly find a co-author who is an expert, and write it with him or her, which not only helps give credibility to the book, but also allows you some reassurance that what you're writing has been vetted by a qualified professional (although if you are a sensitive soul, be prepared to be somewhat pushed aside as far as interviews, etc., since the expert has the platform, not you).Another option is to write teh book and have a consulting expert in your corner, who can write a foreword, or be used as a contributing editor. They can often serve the same purpose as a co-author.
Good luck!
Lauri

[yesandno]

Thanks for the info, Nomad.

Luckily, my topic is nowhere near so specific as heart disease. I have a couple of people I could as to be contributing editors, so I'll probably go that route.

Thanks again!

[Farsight]

Thanks Nomad. I've now completed the manuscript, and have bought a selection of illustrated popular science books to identify likely publishers.

[Little Red Barn]

Thanks Nomad. I've now completed the manuscript, and have bought a selection of illustrated popular science books to identify likely publishers.
Farsight--
Welcome to AW! Try to get yourself into the other threads. So you can get additional help and answers to your questions :)

[Farsight]

Wilco kimmi. If I seem a little slow about this it's because my first interest lies with the physics, and the writing is just a means to an end.

[Sophia2]

There is a good wind behind new science, new biology and new physics at the moment, between September 2007 and summer of 2010 is a good time to publish because the planetary energies are working with you and for you.

Make it trendy like Feng Shui and you are away.....

Best wishes with your project.

Thank you Jenna excellent information.

Sophia2

[misha_k]

Jenna,

I just finished reading through this thread. Thank you for posting all of this. It's a bit overhwelming at times when considering what all goes into a proposal but it's so helpful.

I have concerns regarding the set of books my kids and I have written. They're written from my children's point of view - one from my son and one from my daughter - and how they deal day to day with autism. My youngest, my son, is autistic. From what I've been told they'd be children's non-fiction since they deal with real life situations and are written for around my kids' age range, 10-13.

Thinking about things a bit more after reading through everything here I'm not so sure the set is educational so much as it just talks how siblings get along and what they have to do to keep things that way. The books also talks about what they do, or what has to be done, when problems arise.

An example I gave over in the children's ficition thread is that prompt words need to be used when my son wants to give someone a hug or he is going to get a hug. I show from both POV what happens and how they react when the prompt isn't given. It's a simple explanation, not something that will take a whole page, but I show it. In fact, each individual book is about 14 pages.

I don't think I ever really intended the set to be educational. I just wanted it to show what it can be like for siblings.

Searching the web and various book stores, most of what I see are educational books written for adults and how to raise, help their autistic child or books written for kids by adults. I don't see a whole lot written by kids for kids, or just by kids. There are a handful I've come across and they look great. I need to go back and find out who the publishers are. Some of these I know are published through what I've been told is a vanity press. Or they're self-published.

Like I said, the books look great and from the summaries I've read they discuss what the book set I have here touches on. I think it's great seeing more kids writing about their experience with autism. For me, though, I really don't want to go the route of vanity or self-publishing.

I feel helping autistic kids and their peers address autism is important. From everything I've seen with my son, the peer group is second in line in dealing with autistic kids behind the parents. While the book set addresses the relationship between a brother and sister, we have several other book sets outlined that deal with extended family, friends, peers, school.

Looking at the rules posted here exactly how would I go about writing up a proposal for the book set and future ones? I don't have much of a platform. I belong to support groups in the community and online. I work closely with my son's teachers, doctors and therapists. I, myself, work as his PCA. My experience is from raising him and searching out the best support system and resources I can find. I have a few articles about him and his autism started that have yet to be finished. I see them sit on my computer and I frown knowing they aren't done yet. How do I put that into a platform? And is writing up a proposal for children's non-fiction the same as writing up one for regular fiction?

[Lauri B]

Hi Misha,
It sounds like your books will be more interesting to an education publisher, or a publisher that focuses on mental health or healthcare issues, primarily because the books you're describing are fairly didactic in nature (at least from the examples you've given here). For example, Free spirit Publishing has an entire line of books that are self-help for kids. I don't know if they do anything specifically on or for autism, but it would be worth it for you to check out their catalog and find their submissions guidelines.
Regarding your platform, the fact that you have a child with autism, are part of support groups and an active member in a community that focuses on kids with autism provides some platform for your books. I think since you're trying to pitch books that your kids have written for kids to learn about autism, it's a little different than trying to write for an adult audience. It would be worth having your books vetted by a child psychologist, and potentially having him/her write a foreword or introduction.
Hope this helps!

[johnrobison]

Mischa, I am an autistic spectrum adult who's written a book about growing up. May I suggest you go to my blog and look through the comments. Among the visitors you will find many moms with autistic kids, and I'm sure a lot of them would love to talk with you and offer advice and share stories.

http://jerobison.blogspot.com

[Demonica]

Lets say I have done an interview on a reasonably professional basis with someone of biographical merit (a leading regional female sports figure) and I want to build it into a bio proposal.

1) I have access and likely cooperation of subject - yes, I think so - she is articulate, has gotten in trouble for being too direct and is generally feisty enough for her life to have conflict, but still be likeable.

2) I am in the geographic location and with cooperation of subject likely to get good access to secondary interviewees

3) I am an empathetic person, am generally good at interviews and sustained collaborative efforts (or have been flattered in this regard!) but I am capable of a professional distance and have a high regard for fact checking and research.

4) I have done taped interviews with figures in this same field and directed a documentary film for a major cable network (not the same subject though).

5) I have a small online platform in the form of a newsletter, plus I am a reasonably frequent contributor to various online groups on the sport

So...

1) What of this, if any, is the strongest argument for me becoming a biographer?

2) Would it help to approach some people in the field to get endorsements - both for the subject - "long overdue" IMHO - and for me as biographer?

3) I think this is a collaborative bio heavily accented towards first person subject interviews - although it could potentially be a ghostwriting project. This brings up a delicate issue - who receives payment and how would it be weighted in the two cases?

I have to make this work for me financially and not just be a fun project. Any input appreciated

[JennaGlatzer]

Hi Monica,

I'm not positive if I'm reading your question right. Are you asking how to approach publishers with the idea of you as her biographer? If so, the first step is to have a talk with this sports figure and make sure she's interested and doesn't already have a book in the works. Assuming she is, you'll need to work out a contract between the two of you before you start approaching publishers.

There are many ways it can work financially, so it's really up to you to figure out how you want to negotiate things. With ghostwriting, you might just do a 50/50 split of all the advance and royalties, or you might prefer to take more of the advance and less of the royalties, or a flat fee that you agree on before the book is even sold (or a split, but with a specified minimum amount that you'll accept)... I've done it many times and never had exactly the same deal twice. For me, it also depends on whether or not I get name credit (if I don't, I want more money).

With an authorized bio, you'd normally get more of the money because it's all on you-- any publicity efforts, dealings with the publisher, etc. are your responsibility. If you ghostwrite, she's the one who'll be expected to do interviews and appearances about the book.

[Mac H.]

How much of this applies to shorter 'novelty' or 'gift' books?

I'm thinking of things like:

http://www.watermarkpress.com.au/images/teachcat225.jpg
(Which was selling incredibly well when in first came out one Christmas ...and consisted of about 10 pages - with one word to a page!)

or something more like 'Great lies to tell Small Kids' (http://www.amazon.com/Great-Lies-Tell-Small-Kids/dp/B000FKP9XS/ref=pd_sim_b_1_img/102-4375046-9484935) or "The Blue Day Book" (http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Book-Bradley-Trevor-Greive/dp/0740704818/ref=sr_1_20/102-4375046-9484935?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187005637&sr=1-20)
They clearly aren't novels, and 'non-fiction' seems to be the closest category. (Unless 'gimmicky gift' is included?)

How would someone go about a proposal for something like that .. where clearly expertise on the subject isn't needed?

Thanks,

Mac
(Edited to add: It just occurred to me to google the Author to ask him personally. It seems that he's put up the pitch document for 'The Blue Day Book' on the web so we can see what sold it to the publisher.

It is here: http://www.btgstudios.com/gettingpublished.html )

[Demonica]

Yes, you did read my question right - Whether she wants to do it of course the fundamental question. I got my first opportunity when another film project fell through because the directors had failed to actually approach their subject first before proposing it.

Doing an interview is one thing, laying your life open in a biography is another, as it can have an effect on family and friends. Not to mention the not inconsiderable effort of promoting the book -- that's a factor I hadn't really considered - but as realistically she would be the draw, not me, I think that could be critical.

Thanks for laying it out for me. Jenna - I have read the rest of this thread with great interest and didn't see the biography genre addressed specifically.

Monica



Hi Monica,

I'm not positive if I'm reading your question right. Are you asking how to approach publishers with the idea of you as her biographer? If so, the first step is to have a talk with this sports figure and make sure she's interested and doesn't already have a book in the works. Assuming she is, you'll need to work out a contract between the two of you before you start approaching publishers.

There are many ways it can work financially, so it's really up to you to figure out how you want to negotiate things. With ghostwriting, you might just do a 50/50 split of all the advance and royalties, or you might prefer to take more of the advance and less of the royalties, or a flat fee that you agree on before the book is even sold (or a split, but with a specified minimum amount that you'll accept)... I've done it many times and never had exactly the same deal twice. For me, it also depends on whether or not I get name credit (if I don't, I want more money).

With an authorized bio, you'd normally get more of the money because it's all on you-- any publicity efforts, dealings with the publisher, etc. are your responsibility. If you ghostwrite, she's the one who'll be expected to do interviews and appearances about the book.

[wordsmith]

Jenna, a million thanks for starting this thread!

I'm working on my first NF proposal, my second NF book. But, I'm a newbie at writing the proposal and marketing myself, since a pub contacted me for my first solely authored book. This post couldn't be better timed for what's going on with my *ahem* career as a WAHM writer/editor, now that my little guy can self entertain a bit more, and I have more time to write.

(Sorry, this is totally off-topic, but I love your sling!)

[wordsmith]

Okay, now that the boy and the husband are fast alseep, I can post a real question. Well, a few actually.

Hi there,
Usually the publisher will have a budget for photos, images, etc. They'll contact image libraries or artwork image services, and buy specific images as necessary. It's a total pain to have to find and source images on your own, so I'd recommend waiting and just what you have found online as placeholders. Good luck!
Lauri

First, How would this work in my case? My NF WIP is primarily art historical. My last NF book was a general-interest art history book, and the publisher that I worked with had a set of images that they had already wanted to use prior to their contacting me to write the book. (They gave me the option to pick out the ones that I needed for the piece and relied on my expertise as an art historian to make the final selection of images, adding ones that they may have excluded and were relevant.) Other NF books that I have worked on (where I was a contributing author), I was working directly with museums, so I had access to the images needed and all of the "red tape" of image collection was pretty much handled by other parties involved in the projects.

For my WIP, I've already selected a bunch of images through Art Resource (A.R.), Corbis and the like (I know that they'll probably be pared down, but for the purpose of my work, I'm working with more than I expect to need in the end product). Plus, since I still have contacts in the museum world and know how to go through the rights-to-reproduce process with gaining imagery for publications that is owned by institutions, I'm prepared to do so, if necessary. But what I'm gathering is that I don't have to do all of that? Should I let the publisher/agent in my proposal know that I can, or where the images can be found especially if I'm hard-set on a particular image or set of images? Or do I just give the image titles and their correct credit lines and ownership/copyright info along with if a "clearing house" such as A.R. has them?

So far, after being able to really read the thread closely, I think I'm on-track with my proposal, and at least in a couple of spots, I know where and what to tweak to improve it. But what I'm now worried about is that even with a soon-to-be-uber-fabulous proposal that because it's art historical (often considered coffee table books) the pitch might end up in the slush pile, simply because it sounds like coffee table books are scary business to pubs and agents. Even though the book is art historical, it's also within the scope of women's issues/women's studies (but geared to a general audience)...so would a pub/agent still consider it a too-expensive-to-produce coffee table book and be wary of wanting to take it on? (Aside from pubs like Abrams and Rizzoli, of course--LOL.)

Thanks!

[Lauri B]

Should I let the publisher/agent in my proposal know that I can, or where the images can be found especially if I'm hard-set on a particular image or set of images? Or do I just give the image titles and their correct credit lines and ownership/copyright info along with if a "clearing house" such as A.R. has them?!
I think either of these approaches would work well. Publishers like to hear that the authors are competent at finding images and understand the process for doing so. What I was commenting on above was more geared toward authors who don't have your experience and go out and find images on someone's website and say, "oh this would be great for my book."

So far, after being able to really read the thread closely, I think I'm on-track with my proposal, and at least in a couple of spots, I know where and what to tweak to improve it. But what I'm now worried about is that even with a soon-to-be-uber-fabulous proposal that because it's art historical (often considered coffee table books) the pitch might end up in the slush pile, simply because it sounds like coffee table books are scary business to pubs and agents. Even though the book is art historical, it's also within the scope of women's issues/women's studies (but geared to a general audience)...so would a pub/agent still consider it a too-expensive-to-produce coffee table book and be wary of wanting to take it on? (Aside from pubs like Abrams and Rizzoli, of course--LOL.) Thanks!

Yeah, you could be up against some hard competition. Coffee table books are notoriously hard sells for publishers because of the huge production costs (which necessitates the usually high cover price). I'm not sure the combination of art history and women's studies necessarily make the project an easier sell, either, since those are fairly limited markets in their own right. But if it's a terrific proposal, timely, and well done, you have as much shot as anyone else. I certainly wouldn't NOT do it, but just be ready for people to say stuff like, "I love your proposal, but we do very few coffee table books because of the cost, blah blah blah." Good luck--keep us posted!

[wordsmith]

I think either of these approaches would work well. Publishers like to hear that the authors are competent at finding images and understand the process for doing so. What I was commenting on above was more geared toward authors who don't have your experience and go out and find images on someone's website and say, "oh this would be great for my book."

Thanks Nomad. That's good to know. There are some images that I'm married to, so-to-speak, and others that I can live with being omitted if it's a matter of length and production costs (assuming my work gets accepted). I figured that in my case, in the end, it would be easier to image-prune rather than have to few, as long I had enough of each reflecting the key issues discussed in the text.

Yeah, you could be up against some hard competition. Coffee table books are notoriously hard sells for publishers because of the huge production costs (which necessitates the usually high cover price). I'm not sure the combination of art history and women's studies necessarily make the project an easier sell, either, since those are fairly limited markets in their own right. But if it's a terrific proposal, timely, and well done, you have as much shot as anyone else. I certainly wouldn't NOT do it, but just be ready for people to say stuff like, "I love your proposal, but we do very few coffee table books because of the cost, blah blah blah." Good luck--keep us posted!

I'll keep you posted. :) Since I'm planning on targeting the pubs/agents that specifically do such work, I think that I'd be okay, yes? Hopefully, I've done my pub/agent background homework well and thus have a less-likely chance of becomming a slush puppie (teehee). For example, I wouldn't submit to Bantam, but (all kidding aside) would submit to a pub like Rizzoli or Phaidon if I were going to go the direct-to-publisher route and Abrams via an agent, so I'd be targeting the agents who work with my genre. Am I thinking about this the right way, or am I way off?

[bookfreakguy]

Jenna,

Thanks so much for all of this info. I just finished a book that seemed to follow all that you said pretty closely. It's now in the hands of my agent.

I do have a question, thoguh. I have another nonfiction I'm looking at writing. The subject is a college person who started a business as a teen - a business that has helped many, many kids take the right paths in life. I think it would be a cool, motivational book for teens on hope and life's possibilities. The only thing I'm nervous about is wondering if there is enough there for a book. It's definitely more than article, but no way it would be 70,000 words. Maybe 35,000-50,000? I don't know. But how important do you think the word count is on a book written for a younger audience? Thanks!

[Cassiopeia]

I am wondering how one distances themselves from an emotional but very important topic so as to write about it effectively.

[aka eraser]

Jenna,

Thanks so much for all of this info. I just finished a book that seemed to follow all that you said pretty closely. It's now in the hands of my agent.

I do have a question, thoguh. I have another nonfiction I'm looking at writing. The subject is a college person who started a business as a teen - a business that has helped many, many kids take the right paths in life. I think it would be a cool, motivational book for teens on hope and life's possibilities. The only thing I'm nervous about is wondering if there is enough there for a book. It's definitely more than article, but no way it would be 70,000 words. Maybe 35,000-50,000? I don't know. But how important do you think the word count is on a book written for a younger audience? Thanks!

bookfreakguy, I'm not Jenna but I do occasionally play her on tv.

Okay. That might have been a fib. I'm way too tall. ;)

Seems to me that 35-50K is too short but if I was you, I'd check the nearest large bookstore and look through the YA nonfiction shelves - both to get a list of publishers and roughly eyeball the length of the books there. Then check the guidelines of the pubs that printed those books to see what their word-length requirements are.

Good luck.

I am wondering how one distances themselves from an emotional but very important topic so as to write about it effectively.

Time is the only way I know Cassiopeia, and I suspect the length varies with each of us.

If you need to get it out of your system now, by all means do so. Write from your heart.

But then put it away for at least a few months. Don't send it anywhere until your head decides it can look upon it with at least some degree of dispassion. Chances are, you'll be doing a fair bit of rewriting. (But that's pretty much par for the course anyway.) :)

Good luck.

[Pat~]

Oh my goodness, how have I missed this thread??!!! I'm going to go back and read everything, but just wanted to comment on these last few posts:

Jenna,

Thanks so much for all of this info. I just finished a book that seemed to follow all that you said pretty closely. It's now in the hands of my agent.

I do have a question, thoguh. I have another nonfiction I'm looking at writing. The subject is a college person who started a business as a teen - a business that has helped many, many kids take the right paths in life. I think it would be a cool, motivational book for teens on hope and life's possibilities. The only thing I'm nervous about is wondering if there is enough there for a book. It's definitely more than article, but no way it would be 70,000 words. Maybe 35,000-50,000? I don't know. But how important do you think the word count is on a book written for a younger audience? Thanks!

This is a question I have, too. I'm guestimating that my memoir will run about 40k words (it's really just a long 'letter' to my kids about one period of our lives)...is that too short (for if I ever consider rewriting it for publication)?

I am wondering how one distances themselves from an emotional but very important topic so as to write about it effectively.

I like Frank's answer about time. I think you want to be far enough from the event that you can write about it without using your writing as a way to work out your emotions about it. (That's what journals are for.) You want to bring the perspective of the wisdom that time has afforded to your topic. In the case of autobiographical retelling, you don't have 'story' without resolution/lesson learned. If you're too close to the event, that will still be a gap.

On the other hand, you don't want to be so far from an event, timewise, that you forget what you were feeling, or forget the events. There's a happy medium. The memoir I'm writing is about a period of time 8 years ago. I feel like I'm finally able to bring a bit of hindsight to it, and am thankful for the journals I kept during that time that remind me of the chronology of events and some of the emotions that were playing out.

Okay, now I'll be quiet 'til I've read the rest of this thread. Thanks for a great thread topic, Jenna! (and Lauri and Frank :))

[Lauri B]

Actually, 30-50,000 words could work fine for a book, depending on layout. I've written children's/YA books that were around 35,000 words, and they ended up as 128-page books. I wouldn't let length stop you from submitting; the worst that an agent or publisher can say is, "this is too short--give us more." Good luck!

[JennaGlatzer]

The only full-length books that I've written in that word count have a ton of photos. But there are always exceptions, and if it's a young adult book, then yes, a shorter word count might be OK.

Cassie, I echo Pat's sentiments exactly. I wrote a lot about agoraphobia too quickly after I thought I was past it (I wasn't, entirely, so my insights weren't fully developed)-- it was good that I wrote about it, but more as a way of remembering than as a final product ready for publication. Once I realized that, I quit writing about it. Now so much time has passed that I'm not sure I can draw up those exact feelings anymore, and I regret that I didn't get more down on paper a couple of years ago.

Anyway, there are other techniques to try if you're feeling too close to the material: try writing it in third person to start with, then rewriting in first person after you've finished. Sometimes it's easier to pretend you're writing about another person. Or limit the time you spend on the project so you don't get too swallowed up in it-- maybe no more than half an hour to an hour a day to start. Or write it as a letter to a friend. Just plop "Dear So-and-So" on top of the page and write the manuscript to him or her.

[LC123]

<< Usually the publisher will have a budget for photos, images, etc. They'll contact image libraries or artwork image services, and buy specific images as necessary. It's a total pain to have to find and source images on your own, so I'd recommend waiting and just what you have found online as placeholders. Good luck! >>

This comment was interesting to me, as it is the direct opposite of my own experience. I was completely on my own for finding images for my book, which, IMO, is as it should be. I'm the one who knows best what images will work with the text and show what I'm describing, so why should the publisher be responsible for supplying those images? And the publisher isn't the content expert, I am.

You are correct that finding images is "a total pain" -haha, that's the understatement of the year - but it is necessary to maintain quality control. But oh boy, after my last book I could probably write a long magazine article just about finding images. :)

To date, I have not used any photos that I had to pay for. What I will do differently next time is try to negotiate in my contract for the publisher to pay licensing fees for any photos I might want that require fees. Has anyone managed to get a publisher to pay licensing fees?

[Dude in Hammock]

Jenna,

Just wanted to thank you and everyone else who puts their time and energy into this site. About six months ago, I was an unpublished writer (no books, anyway) putting together a non-fiction book proposal for the first time, with nothing but whatever I could find on the web for guidance. I came across this site, and studied Jenna's Guide to Non-fiction. That was in August. Now it's February and I've got a great agent (at Trident Media Group) and a book contract (with advance) with HarperCollins. It's been a wild ride so far. It's unusual to owe so much to people I've never met, but thank you, Jenna, and everyone else who uses this site to encourage and guide strangers. This stranger appreciates it very much.

[aka eraser]

Dude, the very best way to express your appreciation for what AW has done for you is to become more active here yourself. Someday, someone(s) may be addressing a similar note to your attention. :)

[Dude in Hammock]

I take your point, Fishman, but my experience is just barely beyond non-existent, and it seems to me that people with much more knowledge have answered the most common and important questions very well already. I'll definitely do what I can, but others are have already done most of it.

By the way, I worked two years on salmon boats in Alaska, back in my yoot. Saw some amazing fish (and bears, eagles, whales, etc.).

[JennaGlatzer]

Dude, I finally found your other thread and already said congrats there, but it's worth saying again: CONGRATULATIONS! I'm thrilled I could help.

LC123: I've never really been in the situation (re: images). The only books I've written where images were needed were for book packagers who had photo research departments that handled all that stuff. (Like the Marilyn Monroe bio I just finished-- I made a few contacts and tracked down a few photos on my own, but by far, the bulk of the work was done by the photo researcher assigned to my book. And they pay the fees. But my advance/royalty reflects that.)

[Favored_Dahl]

Wowza, this was an awesome thread!!! God bless you for your willingness to help other writers especially those who don't know their butt from their head (at least in the world of writing)...lol I feel relieved to have a pathway to take but scared as it seems like I am doing a thesis for my Master's degree.

I posted a new thread before I read the sticky (sorry). So, I'll ask my questions here instead:

1) In regards to writing a parenting book, would I be considered qualified enough by a publisher? Briefly, I have a Master's Degree in Elementary Education, I have worked in various school districts with children of various SES, I am a parent of one high needs child and I have read enough books to earn me an honorary degree in Early Childhood (lol).

2) In regards to writing the overview, can it be written in the same frame of mind that one would write a book intro?

Thank you, thank you for this thread once again.

[JennaGlatzer]

I'd vote "yes" and "yes." Depends, of course, on the type of parenting book you're writing, but your background in education should help.

Often, the first few paragraphs of my overview do end up being very similar to the first few paragraphs of my manuscript. Where it differs is that I'm more sales-minded in my overview than I would be in an intro-- I'm always keeping in mind that my objective is to show a publisher that there's a big market for this book, that the book is going to favorably compete in the marketplace, etc., whereas I don't need to do that in the book's intro.

And by all means, there was nothing wrong with you starting a new thread to ask your questions. It's usually quicker to do it that way, because I tend to be slow checking on this thread. Frank and Lauri help. :)

[Favored_Dahl]

Ok, I have started working on my proposal. I have a question. Why do you say that we are to write the "about the author" section in third person. It feels so strange to do so.

[JennaGlatzer]

That's just the way it is... it's how it will appear on the book jacket and in promotional material, too.

[aruna]

And, so, finally, I come to this excellent thread! Thank you, Momma, and now I too need help..
Yes, I am changing direction, moving from fiction to non-fiction. I plan to write a biography, and ask right now writing the proposal. I just wanted to know how a biography proposal works.. should the overview section by a summary of the person's life? Or more general stuff about the person (who is not well known, but had an extraordinary and very saleable life story)?

[Favored_Dahl]

Alrighty, I will just have to channel my Libra energy in order to see myself in an objective manner...lol

Ok, another question (I said in my other thread here that I would become a regular seeker of info :) ), I have the Idiot's Guide to Getting Published (I got this way before I knew about wonderful forums like this) and in the book the author mentions that one should write a query letter first. That the book proposal comes after an agent or an editor reads your query and requests a book proposal. What are your thoughts on that?

Thanks

[aka eraser]

.... I just wanted to know how a biography proposal works.. should the overview section by a summary of the person's life? Or more general stuff about the person (who is not well known, but had an extraordinary and very saleable life story)?

Aruna, I have no experience in this particular area and was waiting for someone else to chime in. But since they haven't, I'll take a shot. ;)

I think what's important is to focus on why this person's life is worthy of a book. You need to overcome the "not well known" aspect that might predispose an agent/editor to pass on the project. So I'd work on the sizzle that'll get them salivating over the forthcoming steak.

You might also want to consider posting your question on the Life Story Writing board. Folks there may have some insight for you.



...I have the Idiot's Guide to Getting Published (I got this way before I knew about wonderful forums like this) and in the book the author mentions that one should write a query letter first. That the book proposal comes after an agent or an editor reads your query and requests a book proposal. What are your thoughts on that?

Thanks

Following specific guidelines is the key here. Some agents/pubs want both at the same time. Even if they only want the query first, if it does its job, a request for the proposal comes hot on its heels. So I think it makes sense to have both polished and ready to go.

[aruna]

You might also want to consider posting your question on the Life Story Writing board. Folks there may have some insight for you.




.

Thank you,I will do that. I did a search there for "biography" and only one thread came up! So I'll just go ahead and try to get a discussion going.

[Lauri B]

Aurna, I've written a couple of biographies for children, and adult bios may well work differently, but in my most recent proposal I did a quick "greatest hits" kind of summary at the beginning and then moved on to how I would portray my subject differently than any other current biography (the pitch was for a bio on Theodore Roosevelt, so there is a lot out there but not a lot about his adventurous side). it was taken on by my agent right away, so the pitch must have been fairly effective.

[JennaGlatzer]

Aruna, I agree with Frank and Lauri-- a summary, yes, but mostly focusing on the "sizzle"-- what will make it an interesting and different story.

Favored, you can certainly do it that way (query first). Most writers would probably advise that. I tend to just skip queries and send the full proposal to publishers I've targeted well (that is, if I've researched them and am fairly sure they'll be interested in my proposal). If it's more of a long shot, I may send a query first, just to save on stamps and paper.

Truth is I'm just impatient, and to me, waiting on responses to queries just slows down the process. I'd rather take the chance and send the whole proposal and get a faster final response.

[Favored_Dahl]

How did you do your research on the publishers, Jenna? I agree with your perspective here. I would rather just get the final response faster so that I can move along. Do you work with an agent? Do you recommend it?

Some questions about the proposal:

1. When writing about the competitive titles, is it necessary that I haven't read all the books? Is a skimming of the book enough to use as a basis to compare/contrast it with your book?

2. I entered some statistics in my overview because it fit better there with the overall flow of dialogue than in the market section. Is that a no-no?

3. How many rewrites is normal in regards to the book proposal?

Thanks to you and eraser for your help. I am beginning to feel like a tiny teeny fish in a big sea of sharks and I am wondering what I was thinking about trying to enter the non-fiction market. Argh!

[Namatu]

This thread is awesome. Thanks, Jenna (and everyone else who's contributed)!

[inkkognito]

Wow, what a great thread! Will there be more lessons coming about the actual book publication process, i.e. what to expect once you're made the sale? (Although I guess there'd have to be a section about acceptance/contracts first). I sold my first book recently and realized that I have little idea of what to expect as I frantically work to finish the contract. I know I'll be dealing with the editor soon, and that publication is slated for June, but beyond that I'm pretty much clueless. If nothing else, it's going to be an education. If anyone has more info. on what to expect, I'd love to hear it.

ETA: I just found this resource: http://dsmagency.com/published.html

For those of you who know, is that a pretty accurate description?

[WFTW]

This is a fantastic thread and I've been reading it off and on over the past few days.

Here's my question...

My book is basically about my experiences working in Iraq and the non-profit organization I founded which benefits wounded service members (by reintroducing them to the joys of camping, fishing, and off-roading...something many of our military members enjoy but may have felt they could no longer do after loosing a leg or an arm to an explosion). The book will contain some interviews with wounded service members about their experiences as well (both upon being wounded and how the non-profit program has helped them).

While it's "non-fiction," should it be categorized as such or would it fall into another genre? In other words, should I be using the information in this thread to sell my book?

THANKS!

[BillTrain]

This is thread is fantastic...many thanks. It can be a bit daunting, thinking about getting from idea to publisher, but the info here makes it seem manageable. I'll let you know if I have a successful pitch (won't be for ~a year.)
Thanks again.
BT

[Maricar]

I finally made it to the last post! What a wealth of information this thread is. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

I was rewriting my proposal as I read this thread. I have already submitted it to one publisher and am still waiting for a response. It's only been 3 weeks, so I'm not too nervous yet. Meanwhile, I've been considering getting an agent, and so am rewriting my proposal and query letter. I've been kind of slow on this because I want to make sure I'm querying agents who will be a good fit for my book.

I'll definitely be coming back to this thread again and again.

[Eric San Juan]

I was lucky enough to get my NF book published with nothing more than a query letter, but I wouldn't recommend others follow my lead. Just happened to be a perfect storm of factors, I guess.

For the follow-up, my co-author and I are going the more traditional proposal route. Jenna's samples are among the templates we studied when creating our proposal. We plan to begin pitching in about a month. Need to nail down a really great sample chapter first.

[Miece]

Was I lucky that I was referred to this thread first! As a first time NF writer, I felt lost when I thought of moving from writing the book to getting the book published.

I have written over half of a book with workbook on businesses surviving today's economic crisis. Now I feel I must focus on producing a topnotch proposal so the books gets into circulation.

Thanks for the incredible resource!

One question: Timeliness will affect the slant and appeal of the book. Should I highlight this in the cover letter with the proposal?

[Triggermagee]

Hi jenna,

I just wanted to say that I liked your web site. I'm so green behind the ears when it comes to writing, that it is taking all of my courage to just send this email. I hope to correspond with you occasionally regarding questions that present themselves to me has i'm writing.
Writing has never been my best atribute, but my passion for the "old west" has.

Kathy

[tengraceapples]

Hey!

First off, Jenna I love u: ) Your posts are very helpful.

Question: Does all of the above go for writing humor non fic. eassy like stuff by David Sedaris?

Where can I get a sample humor non fic. query?

Thanks!

[dorramide7]

I hope you know I am saving this link. :Hail:

Thank you so much for doing this, Jenna.
You're the best, Jenna. My proposal got no agents, but I'm thinking that's likely to be because of the limited size of my market. I'm thinking 5-digit copies sold: exactly where in that range is up for grabs. I'm afraid it's not enough earning potential to interest an agent.

My next proposal is going direct to publishers, but I'll wait to see a bit more of what you have to say.