Are you he?

SJp · Aug 11, 2011

I was thinking back to the movie, Scrooged, and this scene particular:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkfLz2XuXPs

Bill Murray's character says to the waiter, "Are you him? Are you him?"

The waiter shakes his head and corrects him with "Are you he."

Wait, isn't Bill Murray correct? Is there a rule exception I'm forgetting that would make "Are you he?" grammatically correct? Help me out grammarians.

Chase · Aug 11, 2011

Bill is following a more modern (and lazy?) speech pattern. The waiter is referring to the subjunctive mode which was once the only correct way to say the line.

Alessandra Kelley · Aug 11, 2011

Just as "It is I" is more proper (but sounds weird and old-fashioned), so is "Is it he."

Snick · Aug 11, 2011

That kind of usage used to concern me, but I learned that the nominative case has never been used after the verb "to be" in the English language, except by pedantic people. It has always been "It's me." That's him." and so on. "It is I." has never been used except in stilted speech.

"Are you him." and "Are you he?" both sound wrong, and most people would put it some other way.

Maryn · Aug 11, 2011

I'm with Chase. Again. You think his wife is getting suspicious?

Maryn, whose mom used to say "This is she" when someone on the phone asked for her by name

SJp · Aug 11, 2011

Ah, well, I lost a bet. How would you diagram the sentence? I assume I did it wrong.

Chase · Aug 11, 2011

Snick said:
That kind of usage used to concern me, but I learned that the nominative case has never been used after the verb "to be" in the English language, except by pedantic people. It has always been "It's me." That's him." and so on. "It is I." has never been used except in stilted speech.

"Never"? Or do you mean in your limited experience?

". . . except by ~~pedantic~~ people [with education]"?

It has always been "It's me." That's him." and so on. The same "always" for people who hear "where are you at?" and "It belongs to him and I" and "I had went to the party" as correct.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 11, 2011

Snick said:
That kind of usage used to concern me, but I learned that the nominative case has never been used after the verb "to be" in the English language, except by pedantic people. It has always been "It's me." That's him." and so on. "It is I." has never been used except in stilted speech.

My my, that's an awfully large assertion. I do hope you have a hold-fast near.

Bartholomew · Aug 11, 2011

My somewhat thick Midwestern dialect defaults to It's he, It's she, It's they. At the same time, however, it also defaults to It's me, perhaps because I want them to all sound alike.

Lil · Aug 11, 2011

Snick said:
That kind of usage used to concern me, but I learned that the nominative case has never been used after the verb "to be" in the English language, except by pedantic people. It has always been "It's me." That's him." and so on. "It is I." has never been used except in stilted speech.

Prithee, permit me to offer my most humble protest. I too have been known, like Maryn's mother, to say "This is she" when a caller asks for me by name.

Snick · Aug 11, 2011

Lil said:
Prithee, permit me to offer my most humble protest. I too have been known, like Maryn's mother, to say "This is she" when a caller asks for me by name.

You do! Oh! Horror! I wouldn't ever say that myself, because I am aman, but I would only say "I am he." as ajoke. While there is a rule that says tha's right, the rule has been thoroughly ignored by savants and morons alike. Ultimately all grammar is descriptive, and the description says that "It's me." is preferred.

Snick · Aug 11, 2011

Medievalist said:
My my, that's an awfully large assertion. I do hope you have a hold-fast near.

That's a regular sized assertion, and it is backed up by literature going back several centuries. There have been a few stuffy writers who use the predicate nomintive, as the rules dicates, but the overwhelming majority use the objective form in that construction.

Bartholomew · Aug 11, 2011

Medievalist said:
My my, that's an awfully large assertion. I do hope you have a hold-fast near.

Snick said:
That's a regular sized assertion, and it is backed up by literature going back several centuries. There have been a few stuffy writers who use the predicate nomintive, as the rules dicates, but the overwhelming majority use the objective form in that construction.

Fight! Fight! Fight!

Deleted member 42 · Aug 11, 2011

Snick said:
You do! Oh! Horror! I wouldn't ever say that myself, because I am aman, but I would only say "I am he." as ajoke. While there is a rule that says tha's right, the rule has been thoroughly ignored by savants and morons alike. Ultimately all grammar is descriptive, and the description says that "It's me." is preferred.

Bull shit.

It's inherent in the deep structure of English, going all the way back to Old English.

Just because people are often ignorant and casual is no reason to make ridiculous assertions about the language itself.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 11, 2011

Snick said:
That's a regular sized assertion, and it is backed up by literature going back several centuries. There have been a few stuffy writers who use the predicate nomintive, as the rules dicates, but the overwhelming majority use the objective form in that construction.

Emphasis mine.

I rest my case, and those of English, prima facie.

We should take your word on this because . . . .?

urbanmum · Aug 11, 2011

Interesting. I'm struggling to think of a time when I have ever had to respond to such a question in person. Answering the phone I think I usually respond, "Speaking". I'd have to catch myself in the moment to see what comes naturally.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 11, 2011

urbanmum said:
Interesting. I'm struggling to think of a time when I have ever had to respond to such a question in person. Answering the phone I think I usually respond, "Speaking". I'd have to catch myself in the moment to see what comes naturally.

Like Maryn, I respond with this is she, with one rare exception.

Bartholomew · Aug 11, 2011

Medievalist said:
I respond with this is she, with one rare exception.

Color me curious.

Bartholomew · Aug 11, 2011

I am I.

Parse it, baby.

shakeysix · Aug 11, 2011

I am she; It is he: that's the way I learned it back in grade school. In Great Bend Kansas, NOT Oxford, England. "Voyages in English" was the text book. It was a very common textbook of the times. Granted it was some years back, definitely not even a century. --s6 PS--how can I remember the name of my gradeschool English textbook? I still have several copies. Love that book!--s6

Zanralotta · Aug 11, 2011

Just to muddy the waters some more...

I'm native German and to me, the expression "It is I" (and the corresponding nominative cases of pronouns) sounds like fingernails on chalkboard.

The literal German expression would be "It am I".

I learned in school (which doesn't mean my learnings are correct, mind you!) that the English "me" occasionally works like the French "moi".

C'est moi. = It's me.

Snick · Aug 11, 2011

Bartholomew said:
Fight! Fight! Fight!

There is no fight, because the whole world knows that I am right.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 11, 2011

Bartholomew said:
Color me curious.

"This is Dr. Spangenberg."

Bartholomew · Aug 11, 2011

Snick said:
There is no fight, because the whole world knows that I am right.

Silly Snick. The world isn't sentient. It can't grammar good; it can't grammar at all.

ETA: Now I'm just confuzzle-fied. The world isn't sapient as a whole or as a part, unless of course you count Mt. Fuji. But it speaks Japanese.

Snick · Aug 11, 2011

Medievalist said:
We should take your word on this because . . . .?

Because I am right; and you agree, because you know the truth.

Are you he?

SJp

Currently buried in schoolwork.

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Snick

Maryn

I Tried

SJp

Currently buried in schoolwork.

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

Deleted member 42

Bartholomew

Comic guy

Lil

Snick

Snick

Bartholomew

Comic guy

Deleted member 42

Deleted member 42

urbanmum

Village Vagabond

Deleted member 42

Bartholomew

Comic guy

Bartholomew

Comic guy

shakeysix

blue eyed floozy

Zanralotta

Snick

Deleted member 42

Bartholomew

Comic guy

Snick