Just read about this success story...

Good stuff

Thank you for that link -- I loved that story! Let's hope that happens to all of us!

Congrats to them both, and here's to crossing fingers

I like hearing stories like this. But I do wonder how much work they had to do in terms of promotion etc to get people to read.

And at the risk of being a party-pooper I have to point out that such successes aren't the norm, and so on and so forth. Still, it's good to hear.

Old Hack, you're one of the reasons I keep reading this forum - love the tone, love the sense of humor, and your specific advice has saved my newbie bacon more than once.

I say that because you don't know me from a hole in the wall, and therefore you might misunderstand my tone when I say "yes, results not typical... but why is it that no one from this board ever posts 'such success is not the norm' when one of us gets a traditional contract?"

It's a little frustrating. Whenever we're talking about someone who gets an agent, a big advance, or a three book contract, the reaction is all positive, even though such events are hardly the norm for most members of this community.

I am working on a SFF book, one I dream of seeing in a paperback with TOR or Baen on the spine. I'll need to work hard and have a bit of luck to see that happen, and if it does happen, I know that no one will be happier for me than the AW community. I'm epubbing erotic romance (my third is out with Carina this October), and again, this community has been tremendously supportive and respectful of work that, well, doesn't always get a lot of respect out in the wild.

If I were to be successful with my self-published material... well, I would hope for the same kind of support and respect, because it's quite a bit harder for the same results. I paid an editor. I killed myself over cover copy. I outright tortured myself learning enough HTML to format the book properly/attractively.

I guess I've just seen so many "results not typical" comments on the self-pub things, and never seen such comments on the traditional things, and because of the multiple ways I'm putting my work out there, I'm perhaps a little sensitive.

KathleenD said:

"yes, results not typical... but why is it that no one from this board ever posts 'such success is not the norm' when one of us gets a traditional contract?"

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Because most people aren't under the impression that it's easy to get a contract the traditional way. And even with that, we are careful to point out that while it's great that author A got an amazing contract with massive publisher on their very first query, we also point out that it's not typical either.

Often I see threads and posts warning writers that nothign happens quickly, that it can take months or years of trying, and several books to even get interest.

In self publishing though, especially from SP advocates and the media, there is a lot of hype about the sucess stories, but no one actually seems to want to talk about the amount of work that was involved behind the scenes.

For a writer, any writer, to do well is difficult, and not typical. Most writers, even reasonably sucessful ones, will spend their careers on the midlist or below.

It's not even typical for people to write full time anymore.

The reason we point out that such amazing results are not typical, no matter how pleased we are for the writer, is simply becase they are not typical and people should not take them as such. Often with this sort of story it's all about how brilliant the sales were, but there is no mention of the time and energy or work that went into getting them, and no mention of the chances of getting those results. Often they can be very misleading in that way and lead people to believe that such results are typical.

If I were ever under the impression that it was normal to get agents and publishing deals, the Rejection and Dejection forum would change that.

There also aren't a batch of commercial publishing evangelists out there overstating how easy it is to get a deal and misleading people (whether intentionally or not).

And I see all kinds of posts in other parts of AW helping moderate people's unrealistic expectations.

KathleenD said:

Old Hack, you're one of the reasons I keep reading this forum - love the tone, love the sense of humor, and your specific advice has saved my newbie bacon more than once.

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*beams with pride*

I say that because you don't know me from a hole in the wall, and therefore you might misunderstand my tone when I say "yes, results not typical... but why is it that no one from this board ever posts 'such success is not the norm' when one of us gets a traditional contract?"

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Of course I won't misunderstand your tone: you presented your question in a charming and compelling way. Hey, you could be a writer!

I think that we DO make that statment in relation to trade publishing (I shall ignore that you called it "traditional": you're obviously tired). What you're not considering is the context in which these statements are usually made.

When an AW member announces that they've found an agent, they've been signed up by a publishing house, that they've self-published, or that they've finished their first short story and their mother loves it I congratulate them, and celebrate with them. It's great news, and I am happy for them, and hope that they succeed in their chosen path.

When an AW member posts a link to a news story which announces that someone who we don't know has made a success of publishing, or has been paid a mahoosive advance, or has sold film rights before their book is even published and Orlando Bloom is going to be playing lead aubergine, then I urge the writers who find such stories inspiring to be cautious. These stories are not typical; they're often exaggerated, misrepresented and/or misinterpreted by the press, and so we have to approach them with care.

The BR&BC section is full of threads warning writers that all is not rosy in trade publishing; the SYW sections are full of threads in which members are gently (or not so gently) advised that their work isn't perhaps as good or as polished as they thought it was. Every board at AW challenges and questions the subjects which it was set up to examine. Here, we're talking about self publishing: so that's what we look at.

It's a little frustrating. Whenever we're talking about someone who gets an agent, a big advance, or a three book contract, the reaction is all positive, even though such events are hardly the norm for most members of this community.

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I guess what I'm trying to point out here is that there's a difference between the personal and the general. Of course we congratulate our members when they succeed. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't question what's put before us.

Terie said:

There also aren't a batch of commercial publishing evangelists out there overstating how easy it is to get a deal and misleading people (whether intentionally or not).

And I see all kinds of posts in other parts of AW helping moderate people's unrealistic expectations.

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Yep.

Old Hack said:

*beams with pride*
(I shall ignore that you called it "traditional": you're obviously tired).

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Busted Posted pre-coffee and after making the rounds of the self-pub blogs. Agree or disagree with the obvious axe some of those sites have to grind, they have a lot of information I need - information my trade publisher can't or won't give me.

But it is easy to get caught up in some of the term misappropriations/redefinitions.

(If that's not a word, it should be.)

Old Hack said:

What you're not considering is the context in which these statements are usually made.

[snip]

I guess what I'm trying to point out here is that there's a difference between the personal and the general. Of course we congratulate our members when they succeed. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't question what's put before us.

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You're correct. The context of this particular thread was not a strong place to raise my point - since the article doesn't concern a particular AW member able to offer background, discussing a personal success, adding the grain of salt is not a bad thing. You could even say that here it was necessary for flavor.

My reaction's been building for awhile and it broke out in the wrong spot. I'm not articulating it well, but the gist is that I often feel defensive here in a way that I do not in other places in the forum, even though I am equally ignorant and here to learn in places throughout the forum as a whole.

I know defensiveness is the bearer's problem, and I appreciate the help with the bigger picture.

KathleenD said:

Busted Posted pre-coffee and after making the rounds of the self-pub blogs. Agree or disagree with the obvious axe some of those sites have to grind, they have a lot of information I need - information my trade publisher can't or won't give me.

But it is easy to get caught up in some of the term misappropriations/redefinitions.

(If that's not a word, it should be.)

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I am certain that's a word. It probably qualifies as two, actually.

If your trade publisher won't give you information that you need then you can always come here: there are so many people who know what they're talking about that you're bound to get a good answer, or even several.

And I'm a tiny bit concerned that your publisher won't share information with you. It could be that you're asking for too much stuff, or that you're being all diva-ish: but I can't see that being the case, based on your post history at AW. It could be that you're not asking them; or it could be that they're rushed off their feet and just don't have the time, which would be a shame. But in my experience most publishers and editors are happy to talk with their authors to explain how things work, so long as you catch them at a good time.

My reaction's been building for awhile and it broke out in the wrong spot. I'm not articulating it well, but the gist is that I often feel defensive here in a way that I do not in other places in the forum, even though I am equally ignorant and here to learn in places throughout the forum as a whole.

I know defensiveness is the bearer's problem, and I appreciate the help with the bigger picture.

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I don't think this was the wrong spot at all. It was exactly the right spot for you, because I hope you've got some good answers.

If you feel defensive in any of the conversations here, then you could just say so. It might make people step back and consider their words. You've been perfectly respectful and very articulate, and I can't fault you for your behaviour in this thread (although I'll admit I have no idea what you're apologising for, because you've not said or done anything wrong); and I think you've given a lot of us cause for thought. Thank you.