Making a "dumb" character likable

missesdash · Jul 29, 2011

My newest MC is not conventionally "intelligent." She's never been to school, she's illiterate and she isn't all that aware of cultural events. I also have her in a relationship that is somewhat abusive because of her drug dependency.

My question is how to have someone like that without readers hating her? I don't plan on using a lot of humor, it's a pretty dark story. And of course her arc will end in a sense of independence. But in the meantime, anyone have any pointers on making her behave in a way that won't make readers want to pull out their hair?

I just see a lot of comments about hating characters who are "stupid"

Becca_H · Jul 29, 2011

I don't see her being that unlikeable from what you've described. As long as the reader can empathise and root for her, they'll like her.

Generally unlikeable characters are the asshole-type antihereos with no personable qualities. Stupid characters tend to be disliked due to the number of stupid characters who are also incredibly flat.

There was a similar thread about the relationship element that may also help: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218908

ETA: Notice you actually posted on this thread...so ignore me.

Jehhillenberg · Jul 29, 2011

As long as you get deep into her psyche, that way the readers have an idea behind her actions, it could make it understandable. She could be street-smart, but her desires should be clear, like wanting a better life. Her situation makes me hesitant to read about her, but as long as she's not just "letting" things happen to her, I can see myself rooting for her in the end.

Like if she's in a physical abusive relationship, she should have a moment where she retaliates somehow, fight back somehow. That's one thing I would hate if a character kept going back to something that's bad for them without a credible reason.

Mharvey · Jul 29, 2011

missesdash said:
My newest MC is not conventionally "intelligent." She's never been to school, she's illiterate and she isn't all that aware of cultural events. I also have her in a relationship that is somewhat abusive because of her drug dependency.

My question is how to have someone like that without readers hating her? I don't plan on using a lot of humor, it's a pretty dark story. And of course her arc will end in a sense of independence. But in the meantime, anyone have any pointers on making her behave in a way that won't make readers want to pull out their hair?

I just see a lot of comments about hating characters who are "stupid"

I don't see stupidity or lack of education being innately a negative trait, however, they tend to be... erm... "gateway traits" to other less desirable characteristics.

For example, stupid people - I've noticed - tend to be extremely opinionated and close-minded, which are traits that I quickly learn to hate in people. Stupid people tend to be more rash. Prone to violence. Prone to make bad choices. While not quite as damning as the first, they can still be as bad - if not worse - depending on the cause fought for, or the choices made.

A dumb lug like Forest Gump, for example, defending the honor of his stripper girlfriend by punching out a soldier who's just trying to have a good time, still comes off as oddly heroic and makes you like him.

Yet, for every example you can find of that, there's others where the rash/violent decision is definitely not endearing.

Just give your main character a good heart if you want people to like them, and - pretty much - as long as they follow it, you should be okay.

missesdash · Jul 29, 2011

I decided against physically abusive. It's a very subtle thing that people probably won't catch on to immediately.

missesdash · Jul 29, 2011

@Harvey

That's what I thought of, forest gump.
I hope if I make her "good" people will like her despite it.

Al Stevens · Jul 29, 2011

She's an underdog, which can be likeable. Maybe she has a friend who looks out for her, drawing the reader to that agenda. Her simple needs and wants make her likeable. As does her ingenuous, trusting and naive nature. Slow to understand what is obvious to others, she get into predicaments that could have been avoided.

I like her already.

BlackFlag · Jul 29, 2011

Rocky wasn't exactly Shakespeare and he was a very likable character.

Perhaps watch the first movie and get some ideas?

Miriel · Jul 29, 2011

I think there's a difference between a character with sub-par intelligence and what we conventionally call "stupid." Often a character acting stupid is a character who's acting out of character for the sake of the plot (like someone in a horror movie wandering off by themselves, even though they know other people have been picked off one by one -- really?). Okay, I wasn't following the other thread, but if I'm complaining that a character's stupid, it's because they're doing something that feels forced.

I think you could heap on other positive characteristics and have this still turn out well (loyal, empathetic, etc). Also, having a drug dependency might not be sympathetic...but how did she get there? I knew people in high school who started addictions at a young age because siblings/"friends" introduced them.

The MC from Flowers for Algernon jumps to mind as well. Highly, highly likeable -- it's painfully obvious in the beginning that his "friends" aren't friends at all.

Bracken · Jul 29, 2011

missesdash said:
My newest MC is not conventionally "intelligent." She's never been to school, she's illiterate and she isn't all that aware of cultural events. I also have her in a relationship that is somewhat abusive because of her drug dependency.

My question is how to have someone like that without readers hating her? I don't plan on using a lot of humor, it's a pretty dark story. And of course her arc will end in a sense of independence. But in the meantime, anyone have any pointers on making her behave in a way that won't make readers want to pull out their hair?

I just see a lot of comments about hating characters who are "stupid"

I don't know that strangers (ie, readers) are going to "like" this character.
You might be able to make her sympathetic. You might be able to make the reader feel pity for her, rather than dislike.

How many of us would choose a friend who is ignorant, on drugs, and in an abusive relationship?
Probably none of us. Those are not desirable or attractive qualities. Nobody "likes" them.

But we can pity and sympathize with a person like that, especially if they are shown to be generous and fundamentally good-natured. I've known many individuals who had nothing, who weren't smart, who made disastrous personal decisions (such as doing drugs and remaining in abusive relationships) yet who were loyal to people they cared about and would do anything for them.
These kinds of qualities should be highlighted, if you want to make the character sympathetic.

Ashes Oh Ashes · Jul 29, 2011

Oh man, I keep getting the oppurtunity to bring my favorite book up!

Read "The Knife of Never Letting Go" by Patrick Ness. While the MC isn't addicted to drugs, he's ignorant beyond all belief. He can't read, his narration often doesn't make sense in terms of grammar or spelling, but he's impossible to dislike.

The_Ink_Goddess · Jul 29, 2011

Easy! Just give her lots of pleasant traits, too. Like -- there are certain characteristics I can imagine a character like the one you described having:

-- Naivete/innocence
-- Insecurity
-- Genuine sweetness/kindness.

Besides, intelligence is overrated. I'm so sick of Ivy League straight-Aers who do no work and yet get perfect scores as MCs. (There are a LOT.)

MadSquirrel · Jul 29, 2011

Most of the dumb characters I dislike are dumb in the sense that their decisions are bad, they have no personality, and are many times not intended by their characters to be perceived as completely stupid.

Your character doesn't sound dumb to me as much as down on her luck, an underdog to root for. I think if you just make sure she's not seen as stupid for stupid's sake, you'll be fine, and it sounds like you already have a great start.

ShootingStarsMag · Jul 29, 2011

I actually think you can like a character like this. You don't always agree with what your friends may say or do or the people they associate with, but you can still like them. Just make them maybe a bit innocent or naive. Or even someone that is strong and sticks up for her friends, but can't see it in their own life. Or you could really just have them be a genuinely good person...who wants to help people. She may be abused, but she could see it as trying to HELP that person by sticking with them and not about her being a victim, if that makes sense?

You have a lot options.

chocowrites · Jul 30, 2011

Keep in mind that a lack of education doesn't automatically mean stupid. She can be clever in other ways--there are a lot of different types of intelligence.

Also, I don't think being illiterate/ a drug user automatically equals unlikeable--your MC can still possess a lot of positive traits. Those two things are more things your character does/ doesn't do, not who she is. If that makes sense.

I agree with Miriel & like the example of the horror movie character as an stupid character. Even if that character graduated from Harvard, he/she is still an idiot for going off alone...

mccardey · Jul 30, 2011

chocowrites said:
Keep in mind that a lack of education doesn't automatically mean stupid. She can be clever in other ways--there are a lot of different types of intelligence.

Also, I don't think being illiterate/ a drug user automatically equals unlikeable--your MC can still possess a lot of positive traits. Those two things are more things your character does/ doesn't do, not who she is. If that makes sense.

This - but also, remember that you'll have to like your character in order to make her likeable. Which means you'll have to understand her in a fairly positive way. Perhaps reframing "dumb" would help you - is there a better way to describe her? One that comes from a positive empathetic stand rather than a negative, judgemental one? I think that will help.

Katallina · Jul 30, 2011

Okay, you've told me why I might not like her. Now you need to tell me why I *should*. You also need to tell me whether she's going to do anything about any of these problems she is having. (Whether she realizes it herself yet or not.)

The best characters, whether they are heroes, villains or someone in the middle, have both strengths and weaknesses.

frimble3 · Jul 30, 2011

missesdash said:
My newest MC is not conventionally "intelligent." She's never been to school, she's illiterate and she isn't all that aware of cultural events. Sounds more like she's a victim of circumstance: if she never went to school she's likely to be illiterate, especially if the adults around her didn't value literacy (or they would have tried to get some schooling for her) and if she's illiterate adn drug-dependent, she's probably too busy getting by to be interested in events outside her own life. I also have her in a relationship that is somewhat abusive because of her drug dependency. I can see how a person, in her circumstances, might get into a relationship like that: low self-respect (hey, even you are calling her 'dumb') and lack of opportunities.

My question is how to have someone like that without readers hating her? I don't plan on using a lot of humor, it's a pretty dark story. And of course her arc will end in a sense of independence. But in the meantime, anyone have any pointers on making her behave in a way that won't make readers want to pull out their hair? It would be easy to 'hate' her if she was a gifted student with a glowing future, and she threw it all away to do drugs and stay with her abuser. Your MC's choices in life are limited by the narrowness of her life, but have her make the best of them. Illiteracy isn't lack of intelligence. Most of humanity, for most of history, has been illiterate. They generally lived circumscibed lives, but they still lived, raised children, were happy. It's harder these days to get by if you can't read, but look for stories about 'adult illiteracy', people of all walks have that problem, and some have covered it up for years.

I just see a lot of comments about hating characters who are "stupid"

I think what people hate is characters who behave stupidly. If your character is doing the best she can, and you show why she's the way she is, she could be as likeable as anyone else.
Tell us why she never went to school, show us why she stays in this relationship. I can think of reasons, but it's your story.

Okay, I can't resist. You say your not going with physical abuse? So: the abuser belittles her because of her illiteracy, and tells her she should be grateful he's there, 'cause who else would take a dummy like her. On the other hand, she stays partly because she's always thought of herself as inadequate and 'less', and partly because he's her enabler. When he isn't being a controlling, judgemental jerk, he reads things to her, explains stuff, etc. He makes himself feel big at her expense, but what's she going to do? Ask people on the street to tell her what the official-looking letter says?

And, don't you think of her as 'dumb'! What attracted you to her in the first place, to make her your MC? Make us see that.

Kathleen42 · Jul 30, 2011

chocowrites said:
Keep in mind that a lack of education doesn't automatically mean stupid. She can be clever in other ways--there are a lot of different types of intelligence.

This.

missesdash · Jul 30, 2011

This is all really good! I should point out that I don't think offer as dumb. I actually really like her. I think she's endearing an has an interesting way of looking at things. She has a lot of quirks and a sort of child like curiosity.

I reread "the color purple" to get an idea of how it can work.

Making a "dumb" character likable

missesdash

You can't sit with us!

Becca_H

Where am I again?

Jehhillenberg

N/A

Mharvey

Liker Of Happy Things

missesdash

You can't sit with us!

missesdash

You can't sit with us!

Al Stevens

BlackFlag

Miriel

New kid, be gentle!

Bracken

Ashes Oh Ashes

Honest, not Harsh

The_Ink_Goddess

we're gonna make it out of the fire

MadSquirrel

ShootingStarsMag

New kid, be gentle!

chocowrites

scaredy cat

mccardey

Katallina

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

Kathleen42

crushing on fictional characters

missesdash

You can't sit with us!