Language In Historical Fiction

gothicangel

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I found this interesting thread over on Amazon UK's customer discussion's board:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/forum/histo...&newContentID=Mx3EMZ7EFD99KFJ#Mx3EMZ7EFD99KFJ

I particularly enjoyed this quote from Rosemary Sutcliff:

Victorian writers, and even those of a somewhat later date . . . saw nothing ludicrous in 'Alas! fair youth, it grieves me to see thee in this plight. Would that I had the power to strike these fetters from thy tender limbs.' Josephine Tey, whose death I shall never cease to lament, called this 'Writing forsoothly.' A slightly different variant is known in the trade as 'Gadzookery.' Nowadays this is out of fashion; and some writers go to the other extreme and make the people of Classical Greece or Mediaeval England speak modern colloquial English. This is perhaps nearer to the truth of the spirit, since the people in question would have spoken the modern colloquial tongue of their place and time. But, personally, I find it destroys the atmophere when a young Norman Knight says to his Squire, 'Shut up, Dickie, you're getting too big for your boots.' Myself, I try for a middle course, avoiding both Gadzookery and modern colloquialism; a frankly 'made-up' form that has the right sound to it, as Kipling did also. I try to catch the rhythm of a tongue, the tune that it plays on the ear, Welsh or Gaelic as opposed to Anglo-Saxon, the sensible workmanlike language which one feels the Latin of the oridnary Roman citizen would have translated into. It is extraordinary what can be done by the changing or transposing of a single word, or using perfectly usual one in a slightly unusual way: 'I beg your pardon' changed into 'I ask your pardon.

I love Sutcliff's writing, to me it feels more 'Classical.' Where I really dislike Simon Scarrow as it is far too modern.

Thoughts?
 

pdr

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what RS said still holds true. Readers seem to like good plain English with a feel of the period via word choice and structure.

Certainly the advice from editors and agents re historicals is to keep language plain and simple.

I can't read Scarrow either and have a distinct feeling that he and the other male writers have leapt onto the Romans as a great way to tell adventure stories for the boys. I get very little feeling of the actual Roman period in these blokes' 'new' Roman novels but have a lot about military pow! wham! bang! 'You're dead' thrust at me in what feels more modern than Roman.

I think this trend has a lot to say about the modern current militaristic mind set than about the Roman Empire.
 

gothicangel

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I'm currently reading Robert Fabbri's Vespasian, and he very nearly blew it with the word 'thee' within the first few sentences when I was in the bookstore. But I did stick with it, and forgive him as the writing is brilliant and I can't fault the history.

I love it, from the descriptions of Roman farming to its description of Rome. :)
 

gothicangel

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I can't read Scarrow either and have a distinct feeling that he and the other male writers have leapt onto the Romans as a great way to tell adventure stories for the boys. I get very little feeling of the actual Roman period in these blokes' 'new' Roman novels but have a lot about military pow! wham! bang! 'You're dead' thrust at me in what feels more modern than Roman.

I think this trend has a lot to say about the modern current militaristic mind set than about the Roman Empire.

Under the Eagle, annoyed me. The reader only ever reads about nasty Germanic tribes who only exist for the Romans to butcher. No sense that they had their own cultures, society, justice or belief system. Absolutely no concept that these tribes didn't live in a bubble and where trading with Rome and north Africa. :rant:

Sutcliff's fiction was much more intelligent.

I have an Anthony Riches' book on my desk, but I'm not holding my breath!
 

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You know how there is "The news" English where no one really has an accent? It's just a standard straight-forward English to appeal to many. I think that we have to do that as writers of historicals- develop a timeless English. Personally, I stay clear of modern slang, inject a few timely colloquials and get the characters to talk about relevant things to their time. What I mean by this is, if they're talking about every day things like food, shelter, etc it may feel like modern language is being used on historical characters. If, however, they are talking about events that are happening around them, even namedropping a few pertinent characters then they're likely to sound more authentic and the reader will simply be swept along with the language.
 

PretzelGirl

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My WIP is set in 13th Century England, and I have problems with the "commonfolk" or peasant dialogue. The nobles, princes and kings are fine, but it just wouldn't do to have a low class character speak the same way as a royal. And I just can't seem to get this difference...

I'm also for "plain" English and showing the atmosphere of the time period with certain words and topics of conversation.
 

Airball

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My WIP is set in 13th Century England, and I have problems with the "commonfolk" or peasant dialogue. The nobles, princes and kings are fine, but it just wouldn't do to have a low class character speak the same way as a royal. And I just can't seem to get this difference...

I'm also for "plain" English and showing the atmosphere of the time period with certain words and topics of conversation.

I've been working on the same problem for the 17th century. I think avoiding big words, and perhaps using shorter sentences is the way to go. I also try to "think" in accents when I'm writing the dialog. In my head, my poorer characters sound less refined than my wealthy ones.

I'm happy to use plain English throughout, but I still try to stick with words available at that time. Thanks OED!
 

pdr

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You can...

also allow for a few misverbs, I aint, it were, for your commoners and inversions of words sometimes. Just a few though! No gadzookery.
 

Kitti

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I always try for a mix of vocab, speech rhythms and grammar. Rules like don't split infinitives and don't end sentences with a preposition are actually imported from Latin, so your upper class, Latin-learned nobleman will apply those rules to English, but there's no reason for your peasant farmer to even know the rules much less use them.

Also, the nobility tend to be multi-lingual (especially French and Latin) so you can throw in more Latin and French derived words, or outright sections of Latin and French if a character's trying to show off.
 

Deb Kinnard

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My just-finished is set in 10th century England/Wales. I've tried throughout to do two things only (1) differentiate only by the Welsh/Celtic word order from time to time; and (2) have the commoners talk differently than the thanes' class. Example: "he were" instead of "he was," or "nor did I never see nothing like that." I don't think it's inappropriate to use words like "mayhap" or "betimes" when IMO a modern reader should be able to understand them.

However, I recently wallbanged a piece I'd received for review, in that it had the fourteenth C. Englishman saying, "Okay, but I just don't want to be cooped up in an office." Honestly. Threw me so far out of story, I'll never be able to trust it and it's now a DNF.