1 space or 2 after period

[the debster]

Fellow novelists,

I am in a quandary. I normally compose my novels and short stories exclusively in Courier New 12 point--and ALWAYS with TWO spaces after a period. However, I see more and more manuscripts presented in Times New Roman 12 point--only ONE space after the period.

I am a published author, therefore perhaps this is a non-issue as what I'm doing seems to be working, but I am also the moderator for a writers' group and don't want to lead my members astray.

I'm reluctant to change my way of formatting, yet want to stay current.

I've read opinions from editors/agents that they prefer Courier due to the fact that they can read pages quicker. And Courier remains the required method for screenplays.

What's everyone's take out there?

1 space after period?
2 spaces after period?
Times Roman, or Courier New?

Should I be swayed, or am I submitting correctly?

DJLedford

[PeeDee]

I always use one space after the period while actually writing, because that's how I'm used to writing and I don't to trip myself up and slow down. Afterward, though, I usually go through and add a second space, mostly at the behest of people I know.

(if someone would like to come along and say, "Use only one space forever after!" then that would be fine. It's a wee bit tedious, hunting for periods in my mss.)

[AprilBoo]

I always do two spaces for print, one space for web.

[goatpiper]

I always use two spaces after a period. That is traditional typing format, as far as I know.

[clintl]

I always use two, but in my magazine article writing class Monday night, the issue came up, and the AP Stylebook says to use one. That's not really relevant to novels, I guess, but apparently, there is not one right answer.

[Kasey Mackenzie]

I always use two, but this is because it's the way I was taught and is standard in business. (At least it has been in the places I've worked.) It also just looks better to me. However, if I knew that a particular agent or publisher preferred one space I would send anything to them with one space, and use the double spaces for everyone else.

[TheIT]

I believe there's a discussion about 1 space vs. 2 in the Uncle Jim thread. I think the consensus was that 2 spaces just indicates you learned to type before computers were widely available, and that either choice is acceptable as long as you're consistent. The thread also discusses submission formats, and I believe the consensus there was compose using whatever font/size you like, but submit using Courier 12 since that's the standard used to determine word count. Check the guidelines of the publisher to be sure you're matching the format they want.

[PeeDee]

Am v. happy. Will now use only one period and spend the extra time gained doing something useful, such as eating, writing, or aging. :)

[Shwebb]

When I (briefly) worked for a printing company, I was informed that it's one space after periods. This info does go against what I learned in typing class, but I'm sure that there's a difference now between using a typewriter and a word processor.

I now routinely use one space after periods.

[Gabriele]

Two spaces seems to be an US thing. I've learned it's one, but then, I've learned British spelling as well. ;)

[Lady of Prose]

Old processing habits are hard to break. Unless specified by guidlines, I'll keep using 2.

When I worked in computer data processing during the early 80'S, 2 spaces were specified as business standard.

[jst5150]

Two Spaces.

Courier. It's a fixed-width font and that's what's demanded by publishers.

[Berry]

I learned to type before computers were household items, and I put two spaces after a period. I don't think it's a big deal, though. It's still the same old story: If you write a terrific story, no one's going to care if there's one space or two, especially since a quick search-and-replace will fix it easily. Don't obsess about it and write the best story you can.

As for Times versus Courier, use Courier unless guidelines specifically say otherwise. It's standard.

[Saanen]

Two spaces after the period is still business standard, at least in the U.S. I've never had an editor say anything to me about my practice of putting two spaces after periods--which I absolutely cannot change after a couple of decades of typing. In grad school we had to follow APA style, which requires one space after all punctuation. I typed everything as usual, then searched and replaced two spaces with one space. It took about one second for my computer to change the spacing in my papers.

[Celia Cyanide]

I think the consensus was that 2 spaces just indicates you learned to type before computers were widely available, and that either choice is acceptable as long as you're consistent.

Actually, I didn't. I learned to type on a computer, when most people had them, but I was still taught 2 spaces after a period. I'm glad to hear that it's okay, as long as you are consistent, because otherwise I've got a lot of editing to do. :)

[Jamesaritchie]

It's usually one space after a period for electronic only because two spaces can cause HTML formatting problems.

Two spaces after a period with print just makes the manuscript (Or a letter) a little easier to read, and gives an editor just a bit more room to insert proofreader's marks. But no editor is going to shoot you for using only one space.

Proper font is Courier 12. Well, 10 pitch or 12 point. Some Macs have fonts that are measured in pitch. Courier10 BT is 10 pitch, but it's 12 point. Or used to. PCs have fonts measured in points.

Courier 12 is not only fixed-width, it's a specific fixed width that gives a specific number of characters and spaces per page. It's also large enough, and has enough room between letters, to make editing by hand much, much easier that it is to edit Times New Roman by hand.

[PeeDee]

I've always written in 12pt Times New Roman, mostly because I started writing with it, way back in the dawn of time, and have never thought to change it. I've poked at writing in Courior 12pt sometimes, but it tends to make my page count jump. F'r example, it just jumped a story from 102 pages to approx. 140 pages.

Soemhow, this always seems like cheating and I wind up switching it back.

if Courior is indeed the standard, though (am I looking for assurance? probably) then maybe I will switch over and write in that. Certainly, it's cleaner and easier to read.

[paprikapink]

Actually, I didn't. I learned to type on a computer, when most people had them, but I was still taught 2 spaces after a period. I'm glad to hear that it's okay, as long as you are consistent, because otherwise I've got a lot of editing to do. :)

That's probably because your typing teacher learned to type before a computer. Most people who've never had anything to do with printing or publishing have no need for the little tidbit of knowledge about proportional spacing in word processing software accommodating the punctuation for you. Although spacing two times after a period is no longer necessary to provide the benefit that the practice was intended to provide, I don't think the custom will ever go away.

[aka eraser]

I've been using one space since the mid-70s and never had an editor complain.

[Aconite]

I've poked at writing in Courior 12pt sometimes, but it tends to make my page count jump. F'r example, it just jumped a story from 102 pages to approx. 140 pages.
Yes, it will do that, because it's monospaced (each letter and each character takes up the same amount of space on a line). That's why editors care about word count, not page count: the font you use will greatly affect page count. (And remember: Word count is not the actual number of words in your story. It's the amount of space that your story will take up, which is why you use a monospaced font.) In the US, Courier is still the standard for fiction submissions.

[Jamesaritchie]

I've been using one space since the mid-70s and never had an editor complain.

Some things are worth complaining about, and some aren't. If editors complained to writers about every little thing, there wouldn't be any to to edit. Or read. Or do anything.

Two spaces is the traditional standard, and does make things just a bit easier on the eye, but no editor is going to waste time and energy complaining about one.
Complaining to writers about much of anything, even serious things, just brings on headaches.

[PeeDee]

Yes, it will do that, because it's monospaced (each letter and each character takes up the same amount of space on a line). That's why editors care about word count, not page count: the font you use will greatly affect page count. (And remember: Word count is not the actual number of words in your story. It's the amount of space that your story will take up, which is why you use a monospaced font.) In the US, Courier is still the standard for fiction submissions.

Huh. Very interesting. well, what the hey, I'll go plop my manuscript over into Courier and let the page number jump.

(I did know how irrelevant page number was, and likewise how the word count was only vaguely useful, but they both serve as units of measurement when writing, even if only abritrary ones)

[Jamesaritchie]

I've always written in 12pt Times New Roman, mostly because I started writing with it, way back in the dawn of time, and have never thought to change it. I've poked at writing in Courior 12pt sometimes, but it tends to make my page count jump. F'r example, it just jumped a story from 102 pages to approx. 140 pages.

Soemhow, this always seems like cheating and I wind up switching it back.

if Courior is indeed the standard, though (am I looking for assurance? probably) then maybe I will switch over and write in that. Certainly, it's cleaner and easier to read.

The more pages, the fewer words on each page, and the easier it is to read and edit. Your manuscript isn't one word longer if you use Courier, it just uses more paper, and makes life easier for whoever has to read and edit it.

Do a printout and try editing Times New Roman 12 by hand. Try to find space to insert proofreaders' marks between all those crammed together, tiny letters. Or even between words. Now try doing this all day long, five days per week.

If a writer insists on using Times New Roman, the least he could do is use Times 14, rather than 12. It still doesn't have the advantages of Courier 12, I still hate it, but at least it can be edited with some ease.

From an editor's standpoint, more pages with the same word count is a very good thing.

[Aconite]

Huh. Very interesting. well, what the hey, I'll go plop my manuscript over into Courier and let the page number jump.
Compose and self-edit in whatever's comfortable for you. Just switch it over before you print out your submission to send off, and don't worry about it.

For a fairly accurate word count--word counts are handy, definitely--estimate 250 words per page of Courier 12-point text.

[PeeDee]

No, I really do get that it doesn't actually add ro subtract a single thing, it just spreads it out more or less. Honest. It was just one of those set-in qualms I never thought about seriously, up 'till about fifteen minutes ago. I went through and redid my manuscript in Courier, and it really is much more comfortable to look at. I give, I give. :)

[Kate Nepveu]

It's usually one space after a period for electronic only because two spaces can cause HTML formatting problems.HTML formatting problems? What are you referring to? HTML specifically ignores whitespace; one space, ten spaces, one tab, ten tabs, zero hard returns, no hard returns--they all get collapsed down into one space in display. These snippets should render exactly the same way:

<p>Mary said yay. Yay!</p>

***

<p>

Mary said yay.

Yay!

</p>

***

(In fact, my example with lots of spaces in the middle I had to take out because my browser was collapsing all of them and you couldn't tell the difference. => )

[Stacey Sweeney]

Until this thread, I've always used Times Roman. Every submission guideline that I've seen mention a specific typeset, says to used Times Roman.

Thanks for the info, I'll switch from now on. It'll make my goal of 50 pages a month easier to achieve. Heehee.

Seriously though, I'm thankful for any info that helps make my story more 'agent friendly'.

Stacey

[Aconite]

Until this thread, I've always used Times Roman. Every submission guideline that I've seen mention a specific typeset, says to used Times Roman.
If the guidelines specifically state TNR, use it. Always follow the guidelines. If the guidelines say nothing, use standard manuscript format, which in the US is Courier 12-point for fiction.

[September skies]

I was always taught two spaces in school and then I start work and the first thing I had to retrain my brain to do was to change that to one space. It was hard at first. Problem is, since I'm a fast typist (80 words per minute) I sometimes type up things for other people and they always complain about the one space thing. I always have to go back in and change it to two. It's hard to do that now.

[pconsidine]

For what it's worth, it absolutely doesn't matter whether you use one space or two (unless you're writing for newspapers). Only the comp department is likely to care, not the editor.

Two spaces is a hold over from pre-computer typesetting days, when it wasn't always clear what sort of space (en space, em space, etc.) an author intended. Nowadays, one of the first things any decent typesetter will do is go through a manuscript and search and replace for all double spaces. Printed material uses one space almost across the board, so what you send doesn't really matter all that much.

Just my (production manager's) 2¢/

[scarletpeaches]

I'd never ever heard of double-spacing before joining this forum. It's never been an issue in the UK. At least nowhere in my dealings with manuscripts or editing.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Years ago, I would use one space after a period. But then while I was taking typing lessons in High School, I learned that the proper way to space at the end of a sentence is to use two spaces.

The reason for this, if I remember correctly, is that many sentences have punctuations within them, and they all have one space after them because they are within a sentence. But to differentiate between the end of a sentence and the interior of a sentence, the practice I was taught was to use two spaces after the last punctuation of a sentence (in the case of this particular question, a period).

I will quickly look up what my old touch typing manual says about it, and get back to you on ths issue, but I believe it will concur with what I have said in this post.


I hope this helps.

:)

[Lady of Prose]

Courier plays havoc when you are limited to a two page synopsis.

[writerterri]

I learned in high school it was a double space after a period. I have always used it and there is a difference on the spacing between one or two. But the format here won't allow it so I can't show you, but so try it on word or what ever writing program and you will see a difference. It is probably more important in the business letter.



single space-

Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the tiem for all men to come to the aid of their country.


double space-

Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of our country. Now is the time for all men to come to the aid of their country.

It didn't work, but I didn't want to waste all that beautiful copying and pasting.

The double spaces after the period counts for neetness. Notice the first paragraph looks ran together and the second one is spaced apart.

writerterri

[scarletpeaches]

I can't see any difference.

When it comes to differentiating between mid-sentence punctuation and end-sentence punctuation, neither do I see the need for a double-space here. After all, only a full-stop comes at the end of a sentence, so as soon as you see one* you know it's a sentence end anyway, without needing a double-space to tell you.



*And yes, I also take into account the full-stops in exclamation marks and question marks.

[LloydBrown]

I check with my publisher's guidelines. If they don't specify, I use two spaces after the period. It's how they taught it when I was in high school.

For those of you switching your manuscript, please God tell me you don't go back and enter/delete spaces manually. Please, please tell me that you actually use Find & Replace.

[Medievalist]

Two answers:

1. Do what the publisher/house style sheet says. Always.
1a. As someone said, only a typesetter will care.

2. It's a typesetting issue. Monospaced fonts, where each character in the font takes up exactly the same amount of space, require two spaces after a period. Courier is a monospaced font. Those of us who learned to type on typewriters generally learned two spaces because most typewriters use a monospaced font.

Proportionately spaced fonts, like Times, Times New Roman, Bookman, Palatino, etc. are designed so that each character takes the space the font designer thought it needed. In a proportionately spaced font an "e" takes less space than a "W" because all the characters are proportionate. In these typefaces/fonts the period character already has "extra" space associated with it, so you only need one space after a period at the end of a sentence.

[jbmm]

Two spaces after a period. Always.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Well, I looked in my typing manual, and couldn't find anything to do with one or two spaces after a period.

I would personally recommend doing whatever the publisher's guidelines suggest, like another poster on this thread suggested. Follow them to the letter--or the space after the period, as the case may be.

:)

I hope you figure your dilemma out soon.

[writerterri]

Two spaces after a period. Always.

My friend....

[mdin]

Two spaces after the period is an antiquated typing class leftover, and in twenty or thirty years, it will be gone. But I don't think it'll hurt your chances to use it if that's your style. I'm curious if any of the people here who say two spaces graduated high school after 1996 or so.

When I was doing relay, we had to do a typing test every quarter to make sure we could maintain a 70 words a minute typing speed. The test didn't recognize two spaces after the period, and many of the older people's scores were jacked because of it. Especially if they tried to train themselves for one space.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Two spaces after the period is an antiquated typing class leftover, and in twenty or thirty years, it will be gone. But I don't think it'll hurt your chances to use it if that's your style. I'm curious if any of the people here who say two spaces graduated high school after 1996 or so.

....Snipped.


In my case, Navigator, I'd have to say 'Guilty as Charged'. I graduated in 1990.

And the touch-typing manual I was referring to, was printed long before I was born. Heck, the staples that hold it together are all rusted.

However, it is a cool little relic to have in my collection of antiques.


For those who want to know, it's called A Simple System of Touch Typewriting For Royal Typewriters. It came in an envelope with my Aunt Mabel's Royal D-Model Portable Typewriter. And it's all I have left of it, I'm sorry to say. And for those looking for a copyright date, I couldn't find one.

[jules]

Two spaces seems to be an US thing. I've learned it's one, but then, I've learned British spelling as well. ;)

Two spaces is reasonably standard usage in the UK for business writing. Certainly, I had a boss early in my career who would send any document back to me for correction that only used one...

[jules]

HTML formatting problems? What are you referring to? HTML specifically ignores whitespace; one space, ten spaces, one tab, ten tabs, zero hard returns, no hard returns--they all get collapsed down into one space in display.
Yes, but to counter this, a lot of WYSIWYG HTML editors, and word processor document -> HTML converters will take two spaces and turn them into " &nbsp;". This looks fine in the middle of a line, but if the line breaks at that point, the second space ends up at the start of the new line, which is hideously ugly.

[Jamesaritchie]

Two spaces after the period is an antiquated typing class leftover, and in twenty or thirty years, it will be gone. But I don't think it'll hurt your chances to use it if that's your style. I'm curious if any of the people here who say two spaces graduated high school after 1996 or so.

When I was doing relay, we had to do a typing test every quarter to make sure we could maintain a 70 words a minute typing speed. The test didn't recognize two spaces after the period, and many of the older people's scores were jacked because of it. Especially if they tried to train themselves for one space.

No, it isn't an antiquated typing class leftover. Typewriters may have turned into word processors, but the human eye is still what it always was, and the human hand is still what it always was.

People talk about typewriters as if something was wrong with the way things were done on them. Or that anyting done before conmputers came along was senseless and no longer needed. Most often, when something was done a certain way on a typewriter, it was because that way worked better for the human eye and the human hand. This hasn't changed.

When software does all my reading and editing for me, there will no longer be any need for two spaces after a period. Until then, however, those two spaces can make a difference. Very little difference with some fonts, a great deal of difference with others. Times New Roman, for example, is much easier to read with two spaces after a period. Otherwise, the sentences are crowded, and when you have to read them all day, everyday, the eyes can start to ache.

Maybe when everyting is electronic (And with luck, I'm dead), such conventions can be done away with. But computers and word processors haven't changed some thing in any way. I still read with my eyes and edit with my hand, and still work on paper manuscripts far more often than not. A a paper manuscript is a aper manuscript, whether written with a typewriter or a word processor, and the human eye still has the same limitations when reading one.

Ink on paper is ink on paper, no matter what device was used to put the ink on the paper. This hasn't changed in a hundred years, and won't change until there is no more ink on paper. Computers, word processors, and laser printers make it much easier for a writer to put ink on paper, but once a page comes out of the printer, it's still just ink on paper, and no different than ink on paper from a 1949 Royal manual typewriter.

Saying something like two spaces after a period is an antiquated holdover from typing class makes no more sense than saying grammar is an atiquated holdover from English class. Both are still useful for all the reasons they ever were, and as long as writers send editors ink on paper, and as long as editors still read and edit ink on paper, the advantages of two spaces after a period will remain the same.

In all truth, one or two spaces after a period is, at most, a minor annoyance with most fonts, hardly noticeable with Courier 12, but there's nothing at all antiquated about why it was and is the standard. It did, and does, make reading and editing by hand a little easier.

And, yes, our local high school still teaches two spaces after a period for exactly the reasons I've mention. Technology may have changed, but the human eye and the human hand are still exactly the same as they were fifty, or a hundred, or a thousand years ago.

[Jamesaritchie]

Courier plays havoc when you are limited to a two page synopsis.

Courier is probably the wrong font for a synopsis. Courier is a font used for anything that's going to be edited. No one is going to edit your synopsis. A synopsis is the one place where Times New Roman is a good choice, for the same reason that Timemes is the preferred font for business letters.

Times New Roman is strictly a reading font, intended for short papers, letters, etc.

[Avalon]

By the way and for what it's worth, if you want to do some research on it: Two spaces after a period is called "French spacing."

[Jamesaritchie]

HTML formatting problems? What are you referring to? HTML specifically ignores whitespace; one space, ten spaces, one tab, ten tabs, zero hard returns, no hard returns--they all get collapsed down into one space in display. These snippets should render exactly the same way:

<p>Mary said yay. Yay!</p>

***

<p>

Mary said yay.

Yay!

</p>

***

(In fact, my example with lots of spaces in the middle I had to take out because my browser was collapsing all of them and you couldn't tell the difference. => )

This may be. I don't know. HTML is not my thing. I only know what many website owners and e-magazine editors have told me. Two spaces after a period can cause them severe formatting problems. Or could. In all honesty, I haven't heard this in seven or eight years. I don't know if things have changed, or exactly why it was a problem, but I do know that when I first started writing for online magazines and the like, the editors always told me two spaces after a period could cause formatting problems.

[Kate Nepveu]

Yes, but to counter this, a lot of WYSIWYG HTML editors, and word processor document -> HTML converters will take two spaces and turn them into " &nbsp;". This looks fine in the middle of a line, but if the line breaks at that point, the second space ends up at the start of the new line, which is hideously ugly.Ah. How hideous. But web authoring is pretty thoroughly off-topic so I'll drop the topic. Thanks for the information.

[aruna]

I'd never ever heard of double-spacing before joining this forum. It's never been an issue in the UK. At least nowhere in my dealings with manuscripts or editing.

Ditto. I was begining to think there was a serious gap in my education.

[Medievalist]

Ink on paper is ink on paper, no matter what device was used to put the ink on the paper. This hasn't changed in a hundred years, and won't change until there is no more ink on paper. Computers, word processors, and laser printers make it much easier for a writer to put ink on paper, but once a page comes out of the printer, it's still just ink on paper, and no different than ink on paper from a 1949 Royal manual typewriter.

Words to make any typesetter blanch.

No it's not just ink on paper.

Guys, I'm not making stuff up. Single or double spacing after a period really truly is determined by whether or not you're using a monospaced font or a proportionately spaced font.

But you know what? Your editor hired you to write, not to typeset. It's pretty easy to change either way, and not worth sweating over.

Speaking as a typesetter, people mess up with spacing all the time.

We fix it. I really doubt an editor is going to reject a ms. because of typesetting.

So follow your publisher's guidelines.

Be consistent.

Write.