Word Count

redwriter99 · Jul 13, 2011

There are tons of posts (and plenty of websites available by simply using google) that provide general guidance for word count based on genre. I've just completed my first YA paranormal... action (not gonna say romance since that is secondary). In the past I've only written thriller/suspense.

My completed word count is 52k words and I feel like I've told the story I wanted. I admit I'm not good at purple prose (if it's appropriate here) or dwelling on things I don't think are directly related to the story, but thought I'd ask some of you well seasoned writers for your opinion...

Should I query my YA at 52k knowing that it looks short on paper?
Or should I go back and stretch it to at least 60k (using another subplot, or ugh, purple prose) before querying?

I don't want to waste an agent's time (or mine) if querying at 52k is a no-no. Any advice is appreciated.

Allaboutwords13 · Jul 13, 2011

Well, when i asked about word counts and what counted as a novel/novella, etc, (i have 40,000 on one of my stories so far) , some people said that 80,000 is generally considered a novel. I would say that 52k is a good number (personally.) but i think it depends on who ever is publishing your story for whether they think it a decent length. I guess you could maybe bulk it up a little, or write extra bits to one side, and ask an agent if what you have is okay, if they say it's not, then at least you have the extra to fall back on, if they say it's fine, then that's great, no harm done. Sorry, i'm a newbie, but i hope what i say makes sense.

DennyCrane · Jul 13, 2011

It's not a no-no, especially if it is "low" YA or borderline MG. But it might not be optimal, either.

But, if at the end of the day, you've written the story you wanted to write, then go with it. I wouldn't try and "fatten" the word count by artificial means like piling on unnecessary subplots or (definitely not) purple prose.

Becca_H · Jul 13, 2011

You should be fine at 52k. You're right in the sweet spot there.

So long as you've told the story and not rushed anything, don't worry

allz28 · Jul 13, 2011

Because it's YA, I concur with others who say you should be fine.

thebloodfiend · Jul 13, 2011

You're fine. I'd say 45k is pushing it, but 50+ is good. Here's a website that lets you check the word count of any YA book: Renaissance Learning - AR Quiz Store

The lowest I've seen, Her and Me and You, is around 25k. The author's debut, Nothing Like You, was about 50k. Break, another debut, was 44k. Sarah Dessen's debut, That Summer, was fairly short as well. I think it was less than 50k.

redwriter99 · Jul 13, 2011

thanks for the great replies. I should've mentioned that the generic guidance that I saw was 60-80k but I should've done some specific book checking... thanks for the link, bloodfiend!

I don't want to fatten the book if possible... I like it but it is fast paced (from about 1/3 to the end). If I HAD to, I would probably add some scenes to slow it down a little (something my friends and I call 'campfire chats before the battle').

thanks again.

cherita · Jul 13, 2011

I actually went and made a list of word counts of popular YA paranormal/urban fantasy books focused on first time authors. I don't have it handy now, but from that list, 70-90K seemed to be the sweet spot, and very, very few were below 60K. Only a handful. There were way more books with exorbitant word counts (I'm talking over 100K!) than really low ones. And again, I'm talking debut books from first time authors.

That's not to say 52K is too low -- I don't think it is, and you definitely shouldn't pad if you've told your story completely. I just wanted to say something so you're not going around thinking 52K is the sweet spot, because it's not. I think it is for contemporary YA, but not for paranormal because of the world building involved.

allz28 · Jul 13, 2011

I agree that 52k may not be the sweet spot, but it's not far from it--even with paranormal YA.

The truth is, the less words you use to build your world, the better. Readers are much more interested in the story.

cherita · Jul 13, 2011

Well, if you want to get published (traditionally) you have to worry about what publishers are interested in. And they tend to not be as interested in word counts that stray too far from the norm, for financial reasons. Too low is actually worse than too high, I think. Which is probably why I found a lot more books that went over what's considered the sweet spot (which is nowhere near 52K for paranormal, sorry) than went under it.

That said, there's always room for a great story -- publishers know they can sell that.

redwriter99 · Jul 13, 2011

Thanks, Cherita.

One agent I spoke with on another query mentioned that some of the word counts were financial (depending on the binding - MMPB, HC, etc). If you were over a certain number of pages the cost of manufacturing the book went up. I think for HC it was 100/110k words (again it's really based on pages/binding). At 52k I knew I wouldn't be exceeding the "binding" requirement, but I was afraid agents might think that you can't build an audience or world in that short amount. There are successes both above and below for sure. But I'd sure hate to lose an opportunity because I'm looking like a novella and not a novel. I wrote this as a stand-alone but I could carry it on into a series.

Parametric · Jul 13, 2011

redwriter99 said:
I don't want to fatten the book if possible... I like it but it is fast paced (from about 1/3 to the end). If I HAD to, I would probably add some scenes to slow it down a little (something my friends and I call 'campfire chats before the battle').

I also write short - my urban fantasy was a shade over 65k, which is on the worrying side for an adult novel. What I came to (slowly, painfully) realise is that those "campfire chats", to borrow your excellent term, are the mortar which holds the book together. Without the quieter scenes of characters bonding with each other, the drama and action scenes are less meaningful. I've been rewriting my urban fantasy to add more of these scenes, and I think the emotional impact and the wordcount are both going up. So I'd cautiously suggest that more campfires might make the book not just longer, but better.

allz28 · Jul 13, 2011

Cherita, I admit there was a bump in hefty YA books after Twilight's success, but most agents are targeting more like 65k words for YA again now. I'd consider that the sweet spot. And I believe there's no reason the sub-genre of paranormal should be different.

But it all depends on the publisher and we can agree to disagree. No hard feelings.

Zoombie · Jul 13, 2011

It's easier to take things out than it is to add them.

...or...is it the other way around?

No, no, I have it the right way. Unneeded scenes have a way of being deleted without actively causing harm to the rest of the book. That's how you know that they're not needed! Unfortunately, that's not true of ALL unneeded scenes. A lot of those are simply scenes that you like but don't actually NEED.

That's where things get hard.

But do you know what's also hard? Hacking apart your beautiful book to shove new, gross scenes that need to be polished up to meet the rest of the prose's quality.

So, really, both adding AND removing things is hard!

So pick your poison. Write too much or write too little, you'll still have to add and take things away.

It's a rum life sometimes.

redwriter99 · Jul 13, 2011

Parametric - I agree it's hard to find the right balance. I already have some campfire chats so I might just expand on them, or perhaps add a couple to slow the mean time between conflicts. I tried to put in what I thought was needed, but there is some room to expand if I need to. My first draft is going to a beta reader next week so we'll see what she thinks as well.

Annmarie09 · Jul 13, 2011

I wrote a YA paranormal myself, at 55,000 words. I did what you mentioned, I tried to fatten it up with subplots and get my word count up, but I realised at the end of the day that it was just making the story worse.
Don't try and force something out that won't come naturally. 52K is a good word count for YA, you should be fine.

Windcutter · Jul 13, 2011

cherita said:
Too low is actually worse than too high, I think. Which is probably why I found a lot more books that went over what's considered the sweet spot (which is nowhere near 52K for paranormal, sorry) than went under it.

What if part of the reason is that people in general tend to write too long rather than too short? I mean, if we take a look at the threads about word count, there is a lot of "woe is me, I need to cut 30k out of my doorstopper", but there isn't that much "dammit I need to either add 20k or use 18 font size for my book to look like a novel and not like a really long synopsis"?

Though I also noticed the increase. The absolute majority of short (50k) paranormal YA I've read was first published quite a while ago. Some of the books by Amelia Atwater-Rhodes barely reach 40k.

thebloodfiend · Jul 13, 2011

Windcutter said:
What if part of the reason is that people in general tend to write too long rather than too short? I mean, if we take a look at the threads about word count, there is a lot of "woe is me, I need to cut 30k out of my doorstopper", but there isn't that much "dammit I need to either add 20k or use 18 font size for my book to look like a novel and not like a really long synopsis"?

Though I also noticed the increase. The absolute majority of short (50k) paranormal YA I've read was first published quite a while ago. Some of the books by Amelia Atwater-Rhodes barely reach 40k.

Please, tell me how to have that problem. I always write too short. My last ms clocked out at 45k and I still had more to edit out of it.

cherita · Jul 13, 2011

Windcutter said:
What if part of the reason is that people in general tend to write too long rather than too short?

No, I meant too low is worse than too high a word count from the publisher's perspective. It costs the same to publish a book with a really low word count as it does one with a really high* word count. But with a smaller book, a publisher has to charge less (and thus sell more) because people aren't as willing to pay the same amount for a novel that seems significantly smaller than the norm. It may seem irrational, and us writers like to believe people care more about the story (and to a certain extent they do), but psychologically, people feel like they're getting less book for their money if the physical book is a lot smaller.

*I think too high is only more costly to produce if it's really a lot higher -- there are formatting tricks to make a slightly higher word count fit into a pretty standard length book that aren't as noticeable as the opposite. Keep in mind, the actual printing of a book is only a small-ish percentage of a book's cost -- there's also publishing costs like editors and proofreaders, marketing costs, writer's advances and royalties, etc.

allz28 · Jul 13, 2011

Those tricks work both ways. They can make a short book appear longer just the same as they can make a long book look shorter.

What this really comes down to is the reader. Young adults, in general, are intimidated by huge books. (I know there are exceptions). Young adults also have a shorter attention span and there's more competition for their attention. This is why YA books have a lower target than adult novels.

cherita · Jul 13, 2011

allz28 said:
Those tricks work both ways. They can make a short book appear longer just the same as they can make a long book look shorter.

What this really comes down to is the reader. Young adults, in general, are intimidated by huge books. (I know there are exceptions). Young adults also have a shorter attention span and there's more competition for their attention. This is why YA books have a lower target than adult novels.

Sorry, but no. Once upon a time, maybe this was true. Now, not any more. There's more competition, but the kids who read, read. And YA books are now marketed to adults as well -- publishers aren't about to let go of that market share. Especially not for paranormal. There's a reason why sub-genres like paranormal, fantasy, sci-fi and even historical get away with and/or are expected to have higher word counts than contemporary. World building. It's difficult to tell a good story with a good plot, develop characters thoroughly *and* build a convincing alternate world on top of that with the same number of words you'd use to tell a contemporary story set in today. Not impossible, but difficult.

Also, the tricks to make a shorter work appear longer are obvious, and tend to rankle consumers. I have read many complaints about giant font and really wide margins, but none for books with smaller margins and font.

allz28 · Jul 13, 2011

I've heard lots of complaints from adults about smaller font. They can't read it.

I'm not here to argue and I respect your opinion. I just don't agree that it's best to target a high word count with a YA book.

But know that world building is not a good excuse for a high word count. Douglas Adams created a whole new universe in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and that book is tiny.

When someone says "world building," I hear "reader boring." Young adults want story, action, suspense. And most true young adults--those age 12-18, aren't excited about reading a 350-400 page book from a new author they've never heard of.

thebloodfiend · Jul 13, 2011

dude, story = worldbuilding

if you're writing a fantasy story, and your world building sucks your story sucks.

and most young adults I know, the ones who actually read (I refer to readers who love reading and buy lots of books, not the average person), love long books. I, personally, do not. And I hate big font. It's sad when Hereafter, a book probably not longer than 60k looks longer than Looking for Alaska, a book about 70k.

Becca C. · Jul 13, 2011

I personally prefer shorter books... a weird part of me feels accomplished for finishing a book quickly (I'm not the fastest reader). I'm not averse to long books, but the thing about long books is that they have to be tightly written and tightly paced. They have to be justified in having that length, and they have to be exciting enough to pull you through the book. I love it when long books feel short because they absorb you. Divergent was like that for me.

allz28 · Jul 13, 2011

thebloodfiend said:
dude, story = worldbuilding

if you're writing a fantasy story, and your world building sucks your story sucks.

and most young adults I know, the ones who actually read (I refer to readers who love reading and buy lots of books, not the average person), love long books. I, personally, do not. And I hate big font. It's sad when Hereafter, a book probably not longer than 60k looks longer than Looking for Alaska, a book about 70k.

Story does not equal world building. Two different things.

I don't think world building is unimportant. It just shouldn't take a lot of words.

Word Count

redwriter99

Allaboutwords13

You Snooze, You Lose!

DennyCrane

Dude. Seriously.

Becca_H

Where am I again?

allz28

No Stranger To Rejection

thebloodfiend

Cory

redwriter99

cherita

allz28

No Stranger To Rejection

cherita

redwriter99

Parametric

allz28

No Stranger To Rejection

Zoombie

Dragon of the Multiverse

redwriter99

Annmarie09

Live. Love. Laugh.

Windcutter

thebloodfiend

Cory

cherita

allz28

No Stranger To Rejection

cherita

allz28

No Stranger To Rejection

thebloodfiend

Cory

Becca C.

allz28

No Stranger To Rejection