The Spaced Poem

Steppe · Jun 22, 2011

I am not refering to "outer space" here, but a poem using the entire page for the poem. White space.

I will quote from Henry Winfield's notes, before his tranlation of Stephane Mallarme's poem ,"A Throw Of Dice" or "Un Coup De Des"

"The 'blanks,' in effect, assume importance and are what is immediatly most strikng ; versification always demanded them as a surrounding silence, so that a lyric poem, or one with a few feet, generally occupies about a third of a leaf on which it is centered,...

This copied distance, which mentally separates words or groups of words from one another, has the literary advantage, if I may say so, of seeming to speed up and slow down the movement, of scanning it, and even of intimating it through a simultaneous vision of the page: the later is taken as the basic unit, in a way that elsewhere the verse or prefered line is. The fiction rises to the surface and quickly dissapates, following the veriable motion of writing, around the fragmentary interruptions of central phrase, a phrase introduced from the title and continuing onward. Everything that occurs is foreshortened and, as it were, hypothetical: narrative is avoided. Add that from this stripped-down mode of though, with its retreats, prolongations, flights, or from its very design, there results, for whoever would read it aloud, a musical score.

Today, or at least without presuming upon the future that will emerge from this - let us openly acknowledge that the attempt participates, in a way that could not be foreseen, in a number of pursuits that are dear to our time: free verse and the prose-poem.They are joined under a strange influence, that of music, as it is heard at a concert; several of its methods, which seemed to me to apply to literature, are to be found here. Its genre, if little by little should become one like the symphony, alongside personal song, leaves the ancient technique of verse - for which I retain a religious veneration and to which i attribute the empire of passion and dream - intact, while this would be the preferred place for treating, as may follow, subjects of pure and complex imagination or intellect, WHICH THERE IS NO REASON TO EXCLUDE FROM POETRY -unique source.( capitals mine)

Steppe · Jun 22, 2011

As a PS to the above quote, one might assume that using space in the way Mallarme did with "A Throw Of Dice", was his stanard mode for his poems. In fact most of his poems are in the "more formal" tradition and are some of the most beautiful written, even in translation.

kborsden · Jun 23, 2011

Steppe - I couldn't agree more.

Spacing between words can be used for all manner of reasons, all perfectly acceptable (aside from, in my view the pure aesthetic reasoning). I commonly associate such spacing with affectation - seeing as words on a page are only that, context and construct can only offer so much weight and emotion, outline and line structure equally so. Spacing, whether affective or not can add to that strength by showing us the import of a segment of phrase or individual word and/or term/reference. I also see no issue with isolative spacing where an individual sonic or syllable of a word is singled out by breaking for a new line, stanza or broken by em dash before the rest follows, especially if it adds emotional or sub-textual intelligence, nuance or cleverness as in word play etc - the capable use of ALL available tools is what sets a good poet apart from an excellent poet. As I said earlier, and have in many comments across the forum, the only time I object is when it adds nothing and is implemented merely for the sake of appearance as this is immediately noticeable and shallow -- I've often seen poets do it for such purposes and (between you and I) tell them to read one or two of yours for examples of how it can and should be done properly...

Magdalen · Jun 23, 2011

Thanks, Steppe. I found the poem online and enjoyed.

Yes, quite agree, kie! although modern readers don't seem quite as accepting of random "word" breaks?!

I also see no issue with isolative spacing where an individual sonic or syllable of a word is singled out by breaking for a new line, stanza or broken by em dash before the rest follows, especially if it adds emotional or sub-textual intelligence, nuance or cleverness as in word play etc - the capable use of ALL available tools is what sets a good poet apart from an excellent poet.

Steppe · Jun 23, 2011

Kie - Thank you for your kind thoughts. Agree except for your take on "aesthetic reasoning". I see no reason why it cannot be part of the equation.

Mag - Implied, but not stated, about modern readers, is our lack of patience in reading poems. We want to get on with it. Have everything explained to us so we don't have to think much and can get on with our busy lives.

"Random" spacing is not what is wanted. Thoughtful, planed, purposeful spacing is. If the reader excepts your language, the poem will mean and they will be more able to slow down and float in the poem.

We cannot please everyone. Only those to whom the language means.

Please excuse my preachiness. It is only my oppinion.

Blarg · Jun 23, 2011

The main question is not whether one should diverge from the norm, but whether such divergence improves.*

That can be a question whose answer comes quickly and with conviction, but more tepidly and less quickly after consideration. The answer varies poem by poem and author by author.

----------------------
*An important corollary to the idea that divergence should improve is that it should improve in proportionate measure to the oddness and difficulties it presents the reader. When small divergences bring small delights, or stylistic gymnastics lead to an outstanding result, they each earn their keep. It is the stylistic forays, however large or small, that promise more than they deliver that are a poor bargain for the reader.

Steppe · Jun 23, 2011

What is the norm? There are just about as many groups of poets and poetry out there as there are christian churches. Poetry to one is not the norm for the other.

I read recently a book that had in the back a section of articals by some of our major poets on poetics. They each defered from the others so much it's easy to understand why a definition for poetry pleases no one except the one who writes it and a few followers.

Colin Fiat · Jun 23, 2011

Does your idea of white space also encompass Carmen Figuratum?[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Blarg · Jun 24, 2011

Steppe said:
What is the norm?

Speaking naturally and attempting to communicate straightforwardly, of course. Just like you do everywhere else in life, if you want to stay out of a mental institution.

Babbling crazy people have norms too. But we don't look at them and say, Well, who's to say they're not onto something? Poets give themselves more excuses than crazy people to simply not communicate. Art is first and foremost an attempt to communicate. It fails when it doesn't. It succeeds less when it communicates less without good reason for doing so; sometimes it succeeds not at all because it gets so lost within itself or consumed by its own trivialities and noodling about that it leaves a rather grim morsel for the reader in return for his indulgence of the author.

That not bothering many poets a whit is one of the reasons poetry has thrown itself into so gamely into the graveyard of culture.

kborsden · Jun 24, 2011

Blarg said:
Speaking naturally and attempting to communicate straightforwardly, of course. Just like you do everywhere else in life, if you want to stay out of a mental institution.

What about MM, minimalist, imagist, surrealist, dada, absurdist etc...

Also, since when is ideological meter a natural way of speaking? Are you aware that even in Shakespeare's day no one actually spoke naturally in the way he wrote poetry? Hence the name, Shakespearian English and not Elizabethan (the latter being the correct type of language commonly used at the time). Again, I'm not saying your comment is not valid -- but an opinion stated as general fact is not as valid as it could be if stated as what it is - a personal opinion with regards to personal preference, ergo what you prefer to see when you personally read poetry.

Steppe · Jun 24, 2011

Colin - Yes I think it does. As you can see from that link, using space, or a spaced pattern, in a poem is not my idea.

Blarg - Robert Frost

"O hushed October morning mild,
thy leaves have ripened to the fall;
tomorrow's wind, if it be wild,
should waste them all."

Is this normal speach? Do we all speak like this? Do we rhythm our speach?

Go around speaking like this and you will be heading for the looney ben. I love Frost as poetry.

Kie - Very good points.

I started this OP to point out that using blank space as part of a poem, is hardly new in the poems I've tried it with.

We are very tradition-bound. We resist changing from the familiar. I do think that Aspier was right, that narritive poetry is on its way out, or at least someday, will be considered an oddity.

When it comes to using space in a poem, The burden is very much with the poet to justify it. I can agree with that.

But it's also true that if the poet's language and subject appeals to a reader, that reader will be far less concerned with white space in the poem.

Using space, in my opinion, slows the reader down, invites the reader to savor, and float in the wording and images used.

We have become spoiled in these times. We want poetry that reads like prose and explains every thing. We want stops everywhere to indicate meaning so we don't have to use more of our brain and can save it for TV, cellphone chatter, Twittering.
Let's get on with it. Get thru this poem as quickly as possible and on our way.

The way I see it is very much like Richard Hugo saw it -

"Don't worry about readers. They're on their own and will find meanings for your poems in their histories and yearnings. Let language go where it wants. If readers respond to your language, the poem can't help but mean".

I might add that if the readers buy into your language, the use of space will not bother.

It is my fault (always remembering that I won't please every one) if the majority of readers aren't buying into my language.

However I must point out that not many bought into Emily Dickinson's language either. Now she's a great poet.

kborsden · Jun 24, 2011

Efrem Emmers, a Dutch post-surrealist in the mid-1930s wrote a poem called 'hoe smaakt uw brood' or translated 'how does your bread taste' - it's only a few disconnected words so no real chore to translate - and this is the translation (without spacing and line breaks):

me flavour sun kitchen sandwich favour

Ok, that says absolutely nothing, right? Complete nonsense -- however, as it originally appears:

Me......................flavour
.........sun
..............kitchen
sandwich
.........................favour

It still says nothing, but it shows a huge amount -- to those willing to see

Steppe · Jun 24, 2011

Blarg · Jun 24, 2011

"Using space, in my opinion, slows the reader down, invites the reader to savor, and float in the wording and images used."

This is the main thing -- giving him adequate reason to slow down. That's the tricky part. I think the potential problem therein is hinted at when you say, "But it's also true that if the poet's language and subject appeals to a reader, that reader will be far less concerned with white space in the poem." That sounds a bit like asking a reader to settle for less simply because he likes the poet or the poem. Which lacks such ordinary ambition as simply writing one's best.

This:

We have become spoiled in these times. We want poetry that reads like prose and explains every thing. We want stops everywhere to indicate meaning so we don't have to use more of our brain and can save it for TV, cellphone chatter, Twittering.
Let's get on with it. Get thru this poem as quickly as possible and on our way.

... shows an unnecessary bit of contempt for the reader.

Is Chinese classical poetry consumerist-addled laziness of vision or technique? How about haiku -- same thing? Gary Snyder?

There is style that attempts to lead the reader and style that provides space for discovery. Both can work on a reader just fine. The idea that poetry of the kind that has lasted for millennia is on the way out is rich with irony, as is the attempt to compare it with ephemeral forms of communication like twitter or some species of mental slovenliness. Recasting the experimentalism of this or that moment as if it were somehow a truer poetry rather than various ephemera trying gamely for a foothold in the public consciousness is an arch construct indeed. That turns the tourist into not just the native, but the landlord.

kborsden · Jun 27, 2011

Blarg, I took a somewhat overly harsh tone with my last response to you -- sorry, it was early and I still had the skin of my arse on my forehead.

Blarg said:
...adequate reason to slow down. That's the tricky part. I think the potential problem therein is hinted at when you say, "But it's also true that if the poet's language and subject appeals to a reader, that reader will be far less concerned with white space in the poem." That sounds a bit like asking a reader to settle for less simply because he likes the poet or the poem. Which lacks such ordinary ambition as simply writing one's best.

There is style that attempts to lead the reader and style that provides space for discovery. Both can work on a reader just fine.

Agreed -- hence the comment on aesthetics. However: see here - and I hope you read the entire thread too!

Blarg said:
The idea that poetry of the kind that has lasted for millennia is on the way out is rich with irony, as is the attempt to compare it with ephemeral forms of communication like twitter or some species of mental slovenliness. Recasting the experimentalism of this or that moment as if it were somehow a truer poetry rather than various ephemera trying gamely for a foothold in the public consciousness is an arch construct indeed. That turns the tourist into not just the native, but the landlord.

Agreed - I'm not against populist poetry, but the idea and forceful way it is often heralded as the next big thing, or the new way of doing things, or as some type of revolutionary method that will rewrite the entirety of literature...that grips my shit proper! I am a strong believer in experimentation and progression however, but there MUST still be room for what is not, what has been and what is.

Steppe said:
I must point out that not many bought into Emily Dickinson's language either. Now she's a great poet.

Her use of punctuated inflections is genius -- although removed by most editors when her work is reproduced today. Perhaps someone should write in a suitable style to bring it back in a more modern sense that would work, undeniably in today's market.

DionS. · Jul 21, 2011

IMO, spacing and punctuation are a form of language that can (I hesitate to say "should") be used to convey meaning just like the actual words do. One unique way that I've used commas and spaces was to indicate a very subtle pun which in the natural flow of the work would not have been picked up otherwise. The commas are so conspicuously misplaced that it is meant to draw attention.

Having said that, as we all know, the grammatical rules of poetry (do such things exist?) are much more lax than those of standard writing. So in the end, it's a matter of style.

kborsden · Jul 21, 2011

DionS. said:
the grammatical rules of poetry (do such things exist?) are much more lax than those of standard writing. So in the end, it's a matter of style.

I agree and disagree - there are, as I see it, no grammatical rules of poetry. Yet there are grammatical rules of language, and poetry is an expressive literary form, ergo, adherent to its language and therefore also the grammatical rules of it. Poetry, by its expressive and creative nature allows for those rules to be bent (think here the imagist approach where fragmented scenic descriptions or individual points of reference are rendered or framed within systematic and reduced language, or minimalism that may only use the barest principles of phrase to conjure the rest of the description) - but there is also the principle of poetic punctuation. When punctuating in poetry, if the poet chooses to punctuate at all, the marking out should either reflect correct grammatical use or be punctuated to pace -- perhaps even ultimately both. If a poet chooses to punctuate creatively and for reasons other than pacing or grammatical correctness, then the use should make (serve) its purpose in such a way that is apparent and pays off in its deviation - or perhaps the poet should create their own marks to illustrate their intention a la Emily Dickinson's inflective punctuation.

The Spaced Poem

Steppe

...

Steppe

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kborsden

Has a few recurring issues

Magdalen

Petulantly Penitent

Steppe

...

Blarg

Steppe

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Colin Fiat

I Own A Metronome

Blarg

kborsden

Has a few recurring issues

Steppe

...

kborsden

Has a few recurring issues

Steppe

...

Blarg

kborsden

Has a few recurring issues

DionS.

Shaken, not stirred

kborsden

Has a few recurring issues