The Unsophisticated Voice of YA

zolambrosine · Jun 22, 2011

I feel like someone already had this topic a while back and I just completely missed the discussion. But:

http://adventuresinagentland.blogspot.com/2011/03/ya-vs-adult-whats-so-different-anyway.html

What do you guys think of this article? I know that the author of the article wasn't saying that YA's voice is unsophisticated... but I also noticed that they did put more emphasis on adult novels being more sophisticated...

(And though the author didn't say it, there are exceptions to every "rule" I feel like, buy I guess they just mean to say that this is generally how YA and adult stand apart from one another.)

Personally, I think that it's a very helpful article.

Cairo Amani · Jun 22, 2011

I found this article very helpful too, as far as finding my character's voice goes. This idea of "sophistocation" can be applied to the oh-so-tough topic of literary fiction and what EXACTLY is it.

thebloodfiend · Jun 22, 2011

.... I don't agree. The Time Traveler's Wife (besides being a huge piece of childgrooming bullshit with horrible plotting and characterization) reads exactly like Twilight and Shiver.

The voice thing is starting to annoy me. Take a look at any big UF series like Stookie Stackhouse, Rachel Caine, Fever, or Georgia Kincaid. Hell, even Anita Blake to a certain extent. To me, they have that YA "voice". That insufferably annoying "me, me, me" voice that drives me up a wall. Where they feel the need to describe what they're wearing, what they're feeling, every single little annoying detail coated in a ball of egotistical self righteousness.

Your voice sounds like your character. It shouldn't matter if it's too feminine, masculine, immature, whatever. As long as it's interesting and matches your character, who cares what the genre is.

We keep trying to find the distinction between YA and AF, and for a lot of books, that line is very thin. Obviously, it's not pacing. Or length. Or even audience. So now it's voice?

Sure, it's helpful for those that can't capture that ever so annoying voice that I despised in the Girl and the Goth, but it's not the defining rule of writing YA. In fact, most YA coming out this year is told in first person present (or third person past) with a style similar to The Time Traveler's Wife.

And Zola(you used to be kcallender, right?), I must say that your blog is amusing. I'd subscribe if you were using blogger.

ETA: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6275028#post6275028

lenore_x · Jun 22, 2011

thebloodfiend said:
.... I don't agree. The Time Traveler's Wife (besides being a huge piece of childgrooming bullshit with horrible plotting and characterization) reads exactly like Twilight and Shiver.

*snicker*

....basically, yeah, there's too much variation in both YA and adult to make a generalization like this.

Amadan · Jun 22, 2011

thebloodfiend said:
.... I don't agree. The Time Traveler's Wife (besides being a huge piece of childgrooming bullshit with horrible plotting and characterization) reads exactly like Twilight and Shiver.

No, it really doesn't. (Not Twilight anyway; I haven't read Shiver.)

I didn't particularly like The Time Traveler's Wife, mind you, but it's definitely not written in a YA voice, and I can't believe you actually think it reads similar to Bella's.

You're right that a lot of UF is very YA-like, but I'd argue that UF and YA are starting to blend together.

thebloodfiend · Jun 22, 2011

I wake up suddenly. There was a noise: someone called my name. It sounded like Henry. I sit up in bed, listening. I hear the wind, and crows calling. But what if it was Henry? I jump out of bed and I run, with no shoes I run downstairs, out the back door, into the Meadow. It’s cold, the wind cuts right through my nightgown. Where is he? I stop and look and there, by the orchard, there’s Daddy and Mark, in their bright orange hunting clothes, and there’s a man with them, they are all standing and looking at something but then they hear me and they turn and I see that the man is Henry. What is Henry doing with Daddy and Mark? I run to them, my feet cut by the dead grasses, and Daddy walks to meet me.

“Sweetheart,” he says, “what are you doing out here so early?”

The Time Traveler's Wife. It reads kind of like Across the Universe, which I'd quote if I had a non ARC copy.

I had another close call with hell while at the theater with my Knight. He had gone with two friends to see a production of Much Ado About Nothing. As I stood in the box beside his chair, I fell in love with the costumes and fun of the players. I was as close to my Knight as two posts on the same fence, yet in the moment when I made a wish, I broke a mysterious rule of haunting. I watched the lovers in the pool of light below and wished one of them were my host. A chill beat through my heart. I slid down through the floor and half into my old grave before I could stop myself. I gripped my Knight's hand and dangled there.

"I take it back," I prayed. "I want my Knight." I struggled halfway in and out the window of hell for the rest of the act. An icy pain pulled at me from below as if I were standing on the floundering ship of my own floating coffin, the winter sea up to my hips.

"Please let me have him" I begged. Finally, as the curtain fell, I was washed up onto the warm, dry carpet beside my Knight's feet. After that I was careful what I wished for.

A Single Slant of Light

The acrid smell of the smoke dropped her instantly back into the blaze that night with Trevor. Images and sounds flooded her mind, things she'd stuffed so deep inside her memory they might as well have been obliterated. Until now.

The shocking whites of Trevor's eyes against the orange glow. The individual tendrils of flame as the fire spread through each one of his fingers. The shrill, unending scream that rang in her head like a siren long after Trevor had given up.

And the whole time, she.d stood there watching, she couldn't stop watching, frozen in that bath of heat. She hadn't been able to move. She hadn't been able to do a thing to help him. So he'd died.

Fallen

I could shred it up and flush it down the toilet. Or I could eat it and get the high that way, that can work too, a little at a time, save up the rest.

That way I could keep the match. I could make a small hole, in the mattress, slide it carefully in. Such a thin thing would never be noticed. There it would be, at night, under me while I'm in bed. Sleeping on it.

I could burn the house down. Such a fine thought, it makes me shiver.

The Handmaid's Tale

Breakfast with Charlie was a quiet event. He wished me good luck at school. I thanked him, knowing his hope was wasted. Good luck tended to avoid me. Charlie left first, off to the police station that was his wife and family. After he left, I sat at the old square oak table in one of the three unmatching chairs and
examined his small kitchen, with its dark paneled walls, bright yellow cabinets, and white linoleum floor.

Nothing was changed. My mother had painted the cabinets eighteen years ago in an attempt to bring some sunshine into the house. Over the small fireplace in the adjoining handkerchief-sized family room was a row of pictures. First a wedding picture of Charlie and my mom in Las Vegas, then one of the three of us in the hospital after I was born, taken by a helpful nurse, followed by the procession of my school pictures up to last year's. Those were embarrassing to look at — I would have to see what I could do to get Charlie to put them somewhere else, at least while I was living here.

Twilight

“Great. I’m so glad you like it. Hopefully Tongue Ring Boy will like it, too,” she joked, although that, too, sounded hollow.

We hung up and I stood in the living room, staring at the phone until my mom walked in to announce that they were going to take Alex and me out for lunch.

“What’s wrong, Andy? And where’s Lily? I figured she’d need some help with her stuff, too, but we’re not going to stick around much after three. Is she on her way?”

“No, she’s, uh, she got sick last night. It’s been coming on for a few days, I guess, so she probably won’t move in until tomorrow. That was just her on the phone.”

“Well, you’re sure she’s all right? Do you think we should go over there? I always feel so badly for that girl—no real parents, just that cranky old bat of a grandmother.” She put her hand on my shoulder, as if to drive home the pain. “She’s lucky she’s got you for a friend. Otherwise she’d be all alone in the world.”

My voice caught in my throat, but after a few seconds I managed a few words. “Yeah, I guess so. But she’s fine, she really is. Just going to sleep it off. Let’s get sandwiches, OK? The doorman said there’s a great deli four blocks down.”

The Devil Wears Prada

I realized Grace had her arm around my shoulder, her cheek leaning against me, comforting me even though she couldn’t possibly understand what was bothering me.

“I wish you could’ve met them,” I said, “when everybody was human.” I didn’t know how to explain to her

how lost I felt now, the only one wearing human skin.

“Tell me something about them,” Grace said, her voice muffled against my T-shirt.

I let my mind flit over memories. “Beck taught me how to hunt when I was eight. I hated it.”

I remembered standing in Beck’s living room, staring out at the first ice-covered tree branches of the winter, brilliant and winking in the morning sun. The backyard seemed like a dangerous and alien planet.

Shiver

Karl and I stood on the porch and looked out at his park of a back yard. Tennis court. Swimming pool and bath house. We could see Doro and Vivian splashing around in the pool. Grass. Trees. There was a multicar garage off to one side, and I got a glimpse of a cottage almost hidden by trees.

"The gardener and his wife live out there," Karl told me. "His wife is the maid. The cook helps with the housework, too, when she isn't busy in the kitchen. She lives upstairs, in the servants' quarters."

"Did you inherit all this or something?" I asked. I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd said, "None of your business."

"I had one of my people sign it over to me," he said. "He was going to put it up for sale anyway and he didn't need the money."

I looked at him. The expression on his thin, angular face hadn't changed at all. I hooted with laughter. I couldn't help it. "You stole it! Oh, God. Beautiful; you're human,

Mind of My Mind

Without the titles, would you honestly be able to pick out which was YA and which was AF?

And yes, the formatting is messed up. I don't know why it isn't working properly.

Deleted member 42 · Jun 22, 2011

I can fix the formatting, if you give me permission.

Amadan · Jun 22, 2011

thebloodfiend said:
Without the titles, would you honestly be able to pick out which was YA and which was AF?

From one (carefully selected) paragraph? Probably not. Do you think sentence-level construction is the only distinctive characteristic of prose fiction?

Becca C. · Jun 22, 2011

thebloodfiend, I totally agree. I wouldn't be able to tell without the titles. Those books do all have a kind of... I don't want to say "flowery," because that has kind of gotten a bad connotation, but their style is very flowing and descriptive. I would say this is more of a "style" thing than a "voice" thing. Descriptive, dramatic, flowery prose can work in both YA and adult. To me it's a matter of formality. The styles of your examples are pretty formal, while other YA (you mentioned The Ghost and the Goth) is a lot less formal, more conversational, less flowery.

thebloodfiend · Jun 22, 2011

Medievalist said:
I can fix the formatting, if you give me permission.

Please

thebloodfiend · Jun 22, 2011

Becca C. said:
thebloodfiend, I totally agree. I wouldn't be able to tell without the titles. Those books do all have a kind of... I don't want to say "flowery," because that has kind of gotten a bad connotation, but their style is very flowing and descriptive. I would say this is more of a "style" thing than a "voice" thing. Descriptive, dramatic, flowery prose can work in both YA and adult. To me it's a matter of formality. The styles of your examples are pretty formal, while other YA (you mentioned The Ghost and the Goth) is a lot less formal, more conversational, less flowery.

Exactly. I don't enjoy flowery prose, but I don't like conversational prose either. Somewhere in the middle is nice.

It's harder to define voice (and differentiate it from tone) because it is very literal. Different people have different voices. Some people sound older than they are, many speak with accents that are hard to express in prose, and some sound more "masculine" than "feminine", if that's even possible.

I used to like that really sarcastic voice that snarked about something every other line. But now I can't stand it.

Shady Lane · Jun 22, 2011

there's a huge range of voices in YA (just like in adult--Compare Palahniuk to McEwan) and anyone who says otherwise hasn't read enough.

Smish · Jun 22, 2011

Shady Lane said:
there's a huge range of voices in YA (just like in adult--Compare Palahniuk to McEwan) and anyone who says otherwise hasn't read enough.

+1

zolambrosine · Jun 22, 2011

thebloodfiend said:
.... I don't agree. The Time Traveler's Wife (besides being a huge piece of childgrooming bullshit with horrible plotting and characterization) reads exactly like Twilight and Shiver.

The voice thing is starting to annoy me. Take a look at any big UF series like Stookie Stackhouse, Rachel Caine, Fever, or Georgia Kincaid. Hell, even Anita Blake to a certain extent. To me, they have that YA "voice". That insufferably annoying "me, me, me" voice that drives me up a wall. Where they feel the need to describe what they're wearing, what they're feeling, every single little annoying detail coated in a ball of egotistical self righteousness.

Your voice sounds like your character. It shouldn't matter if it's too feminine, masculine, immature, whatever. As long as it's interesting and matches your character, who cares what the genre is.

We keep trying to find the distinction between YA and AF, and for a lot of books, that line is very thin. Obviously, it's not pacing. Or length. Or even audience. So now it's voice?

Sure, it's helpful for those that can't capture that ever so annoying voice that I despised in the Girl and the Goth, but it's not the defining rule of writing YA. In fact, most YA coming out this year is told in first person present (or third person past) with a style similar to The Time Traveler's Wife.

And Zola(you used to be kcallender, right?), I must say that your blog is amusing. I'd subscribe if you were using blogger.

ETA: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6275028#post6275028

Why thank you.

The thing is, while I do think that there's an exception to every rule, people spend time trying to make distinctions between YA and AF because there is something that keeps the two apart besides just marketing strategy (to me, anyway). I don't think it's only voice that separates YA and AF, but I do think that it's something to consider. I'm guessing that in the end it's many factors that come together when a publisher or an agent decides to call a book YA rather than AF... and voice is most likely one of those factors.

Shady Lane: Wasn't this article written by someone working in a literary agency? I'm not sure it's helpful to completely discount the author of the article.

neener · Jun 23, 2011

Averon 2011 said:
We should be writing more balanced YA books so that every can get the benefit of being represented by the books that they are reading and everyone will retain an interest in books.

I always struggle when people say we "should" be writing something...lots of people enjoy Romance, lots of eager YA readers AND writers. Sure, diversity is important. So it is great that some authors are drawn to different types of YA. BTW, though at first glance through the YA section at say, Walmart, it looks like YA is only paranormal romance, that is misleading. Lots and lots of great YA is completely different. And published! And available! Instead of saying what "should" be written, I say write what makes you, the author, excited. The best book I can produce might be a romance--but that doesn't mean I shouldn't write it!

As for the original topic, I appreciate what the agent in the link (Natalie Fischer I believe) is saying. There is a difference, even though at times the line is thin.

Alitriona · Jun 23, 2011

There seems to be a lot of people that want books to tick certain boxes and only stay inside those walls. There are so many books or every kind it's simply impossible to say 'All' when taking about books... or anything in life really.

adktd2bks · Jun 23, 2011

neener said:
I always struggle when people say we "should" be writing something...lots of people enjoy Romance, lots of eager YA readers AND writers. Sure, diversity is important. So it is great that some authors are drawn to different types of YA. BTW, though at first glance through the YA section at say, Walmart, it looks like YA is only paranormal romance, that is misleading. Lots and lots of great YA is completely different. And published! And available! Instead of saying what "should" be written, I say write what makes you, the author, excited. The best book I can produce might be a romance--but that doesn't mean I shouldn't write it!

Well said!!

As for the original topic, I appreciate what the agent in the link (Natalie Fischer I believe) is saying. There is a difference, even though at times the line is thin.

I believe there is a difference too, although it's a very thin line and trying to define it as having certain qualities as Natalie was doing isn't easy, or advisable, I think. There are way too many exceptions and crossover. Also, the examples that were given in that blog post weren't all that great. They were a completely different style so of course the word choice was going to be different. And as bloodfiend illustrated, you can't pick out a YA voice from a AF voice by reading just a few paragraphs.

Windcutter · Jun 23, 2011

I liked the part about perception. What I notice sometimes when reading YA is that I don't believe the character is a teen because they seem to think "like my mom". It's hard to pin down but sometimes it's so so obvious that the writer doesn't remember what it's like to be a teen.

Also, the backstory. A lot of YA characters feel like they have no past, which is understandable, they aren't yet completely shaped by their experiences. And there are others who make an impression of being totally focused on their past, they keep recalling stuff over and over again even when it's not important for the plot. (Say, if MC's brother died two years ago and now the killer is free again, it is important).

Becca C. · Jun 23, 2011

Windcutter said:
Also, the backstory. A lot of YA characters feel like they have no past

Yes, I know exactly what you mean! For me, as a person, nostalgia and childhood memories are SO important. It baffles me that nostalgia isn't drawn on more in YA, especially since 17/18 is such a difficult age, having to face adulthood head-on when you sometimes aren't ready.

I agree that you have to write what excites you. So I'm trying to fix the above problem by writing a character heavily influenced by his nostalgia for his early childhood

yay for finding a gap you want to fill!

thebloodfiend · Jun 23, 2011

Windcutter said:
I liked the part about perception. What I notice sometimes when reading YA is that I don't believe the character is a teen because they seem to think "like my mom". It's hard to pin down but sometimes it's so so obvious that the writer doesn't remember what it's like to be a teen.

Also, the backstory. A lot of YA characters feel like they have no past, which is understandable, they aren't yet completely shaped by their experiences. And there are others who make an impression of being totally focused on their past, they keep recalling stuff over and over again even when it's not important for the plot. (Say, if MC's brother died two years ago and now the killer is free again, it is important).

Very true. Perception is a big difference between an adult and a teen voice. They could sound exactly the same, but they'll no doubt observe things differently. For instance, a twenty-year-old guy might notice an eighteen-year-old girl in a completely different way from a thirteen-year-old boy or forty-year-old man who's old enough to be her father. For instance, I'd find it hard to believe that a guy would be strictly abstinence only if a hot girl was coming on to him and he hadn't had sex in 117 years.

And I agree with you on backstory. Though I've seen some YA with very rich backstory. Anything by Melina Marchetta has really, really, good character backstory. But as you said, a lot of them don't. But a lot of them do. I just don't like when people make sweeping generalizations using the two most opposite books in the universe.

Cecile · Jun 23, 2011

This is something I had been wondering about it. I work at my local Books-A-Million, and what is and isn't teen seems to be placed completely on the reader. I see 40 year old women shopping our Teen section and then see fifteen and sixteen year old girls shopping in our Fiction section. Averon 2011 made a good point about YA currently being a little over run with paranormal romance. While I adore that genre, and am writing in that genre, I have to really stop and think when I get a 13 or 14 year old boy in the store who wants a really good book to read. While there are books out there for him, it takes me longer to recommend some.

For me personally, the difference between YA and Fiction has been the age of the main character's. YA tends to have MCs anywhere from 13 or 14 to 18 or 19. I've only read a limited amount of Fiction books, but all the MCs in the books I did read were in college at the very least, if not in their twenties or thirties, or even older. That's just where I saw the distinction. Granted, as has been said before, there are exceptions to every rule.

Deleted member 42 · Jun 23, 2011

I used to shop in YA for preparing to teach YA lit classes and it would seriously puzzle bookstore employees.

But once they figured it out, they were fabulous about looking for trends and letting me know what I "had to read."

YA existed for authors and readers long before it existed for booksellers or publishers; Louisa May Alcott had a specific audience in mind, so did Twain and Marguerite Henry and Noel Streatfeild and Walter Farley.

The Unsophisticated Voice of YA

zolambrosine

Cairo Amani

Cairo

thebloodfiend

Cory

lenore_x

Amadan

thebloodfiend

Cory

Deleted member 42

Amadan

Becca C.

thebloodfiend

Cory

thebloodfiend

Cory

Shady Lane

my name is hannah

Smish

Reads more than she writes.

zolambrosine

neener

Cleaning is overrated

Alitriona

Attends The School of AW

adktd2bks

addicted to books

Windcutter

Becca C.

thebloodfiend

Cory

Cecile

Deleted member 42