Graphic Novel Newbie

Smirkin · Jun 15, 2011

I am not (yet) attempting anything close to writing a graphic novel, but I have just started a journey to learn to appreciate them.

I'm starting with Art Speigelman, and because Maus was checked out (waitlisted actually) at the library, I ended up with In the Shadow of No Towers. I am going through it verrrry slowly, just trying to adapt to this new way of receiving story, and I'm noticing this kind of ironic tone, almost as if there is some guy sitting behind me in the movie theater making snarky comments, except the guy is the narrator. Does that make sense?

Is this a feature of comics or graphic novels, or is this just Speigelman, or is this just this one text?

Keep in mind as you enlighten me that I can't even remember ever picking up a comic book as a kid, so I am really coming straight from the world of traditional novels/stories.

thothguard51 · Jun 15, 2011

I've been a fan of GN's for 40 years, enjoy the journey.

Bicyclefish · Jun 15, 2011

Out of curiosity, what sparked your interest in comics?

Smirkin · Jun 15, 2011

I went to a conference designed for teachers, and a friend suggested I take the graphic novel workshop. I went into it very much with a "I need to know this because the kids like it" mindset, and ended up completely fascinated myself. Until a few years ago, I had always thought of myself as a person of words - a linear, verbal learner - I guess just because I have always loved reading and writing. However, after 7 years of teaching and explaining things visually to kids, I figured out that I am actually an extremely visual learner! So then when I was at the workshop, it suddenly clicked that OBVIOUSLY I would love this stuff myself. I think I was just ignorant and fell into the belief that graphic novel = superhero comic book, and once I saw in the workshop that it was so much more than that, I realized that I really want to explore this genre on my own.

phew, glad you asked or what?

Max Vaehling · Jun 16, 2011

Smirkin said:
Is this a feature of comics or graphic novels, or is this just Speigelman, or is this just this one text?

It's stylistic choice. Comics can do that. They can do other things, too.

That's as close to an answer I can give on that one.

That said, if you like comics with an ironic, storyteller-ey tone, you may want to check out some of Neil Gaiman's or maybe Alan Moore's stuff. They apply this tone to their characters sometimes, though not as fourth-wall-breaky as Spiegelman. Gaiman's and Dave McKean's Violent Cases and Mr. Punch are good starting points.

If you can get them in your country, Jaques Tardi's comics are very good at this, too, especially his Adèle Blanc-Sec books and Le Demon Des Glaces. Some of Moebius' stuff, too. That European streak of off-mainstream comics from the seventies and onwards probably inspired Spiegelman, too.

I'm not really a graphic-novel-swear-on-my-mother's-grave-I'm-taking-that-term-seriously guy, so I can't give you any cues from that scene.

Smirkin · Jun 16, 2011

Ah, so is the term 'graphic novel' suspect?

funny, the presenter at the workshop I attended went to great lengths to distinguish graphic novels from comics with the argument that graphic novels were more complex, more plot-based, and actually now that I think about it I forget how else she distinguished them. Is this just another instance of academica jargonizing things?

elae · Jun 16, 2011

I don't remember the tone of No Towers nearly as well, but I don't think Maus has much "snark" to it at all. But keep in mind that these two are autobiographical works, so Spiegelman's narration is different from what you would find in a fiction GN or a memoir by a different artist (like Persepolis, Blankets or Fun Home). Plenty of graphic novels don't have a narrator at all, just dialogue.

There are some great graphic novels out there to discover. I hope you enjoy 'em.

(And really? No comics at all? Long-story comic strips in the newspapers? Archie? there must have been one or two!)

Max Vaehling · Jun 16, 2011

Smirkin said:
Ah, so is the term 'graphic novel' suspect?

funny, the presenter at the workshop I attended went to great lengths to distinguish graphic novels from comics with the argument that graphic novels were more complex, more plot-based, and actually now that I think about it I forget how else she distinguished them. Is this just another instance of academica jargonizing things?

Yep, that's exactly what made them suspect.

GN aren't distinct from comics. They are comics, just another sub-form like manga and superhero books. They're just presented more snobbishly: Comics for people who don't like comics.

Nothing wrong with emphasizing the narrative character of a comic, and a lot of comics publishers welcome the hype because it helps bring comics into media who otherwise wouldn't even snark at them. But the GN hype does that at the expense of all other comics.

Bicyclefish · Jun 16, 2011

Smirkin said:
Ah, so is the term 'graphic novel' suspect?

funny, the presenter at the workshop I attended went to great lengths to distinguish graphic novels from comics with the argument that graphic novels were more complex, more plot-based [...]

A lot of single issue comics (floppies) are collected into graphic novel format; as a result of their longer length, graphic novels do tend to be more complex, but that doesn't mean comics are necessarily simpler. I suppose it's sorta of like relating a novel to a collected trilogy, and, like novels, GNs range in tone and style.

There's some discussions about GNs in this forum, including sales versus floppies in this thread (start from post #8). Another thread you might find interesting is Graphic Novels Vs Novels.

Axler · Jun 16, 2011

In the late 70s, Will Eisner came up with the term "graphic novel" as an off-the-cuff description of his seminal work, A Contract With God.

However, it had supposedly been used earlier than that as a cover blurb on Jack Katz's The First Kingdom.

Personally, I tend to consider Gil Kane's Blackmark the first "true" graphic novel.

Matt Maxwell · Jun 16, 2011

Hey Mark, is Blackmark in print in any form anywhere? I've been trying to track that and My Name is Savage down for some time, partially out of historical interest and just because I'd like to actually read 'em sometime.

Bicyclefish · Jun 16, 2011

Some say he coined the term “sequential art” too, although I suspect it's more like what happened with "graphic novel".

He’d originally wanted to publish the book with a major house in New York, calling the president of Bantam Books directly, but when he got him on the phone it occurred to him that if he said he had a “comic” to show him he wouldn’t get through the door. Instead, he used the term “graphic novel”. [...]

Eisner acknowledges that the term “graphic novel” had been coined prior to his book. But, he says, “I had not known at the time that someone had used that term before.” Nor does he take credit for creating the first graphic book. Eisner admits that, “I can’t claim to have invented the wheel, but I felt I was in a position to change the direction of comics.” TIME.comix’ argument is that Eisner’s book, published outside the comic book system and pretty clearly the first comix work deliberately aspiring to literary status, by having the term on the front cover, crystallized the concept of a “graphic novel.” But the matter is clearly open to debate.

There's more on it here.

Axler · Jun 16, 2011

Marvel reprinted it in magazine format at some point in the late 70s, I believe...as well as Gil's sequel. The original book can probably be found on Ebay.

Bicyclefish · Jun 17, 2011

Fantagraphics released a 30th anniversary edition in 2002 too. I saw some used copies for sale online.

Matt Maxwell · Jun 17, 2011

Hey, nice find. That was just before I was getting back into comics so I missed it.

Max Vaehling · Jun 18, 2011

@Byciclefish: It's true that the GN term had several parents, but I think sequential art is something Éisner made up for his classes. At least I never heard anybody else claim it's theirs.

Axler · Jun 19, 2011

Max Vaehling said:
@Byciclefish: It's true that the GN term had several parents, but I think sequential art is something Éisner made up for his classes. At least I never heard anybody else claim it's theirs.

Me either.

I knew Will fairly well, so I tend to go with his side of the provenance.

RemusShepherd · Jun 20, 2011

Smirkin said:
I'm starting with Art Speigelman, and because Maus was checked out (waitlisted actually) at the library, I ended up with In the Shadow of No Towers. I am going through it verrrry slowly, just trying to adapt to this new way of receiving story, and I'm noticing this kind of ironic tone, almost as if there is some guy sitting behind me in the movie theater making snarky comments, except the guy is the narrator. Does that make sense?

Is this a feature of comics or graphic novels, or is this just Speigelman, or is this just this one text?

Just Speigelman. Comics are just like novels in that you can have an invisible narrator or an everpresent one, and you can either be in tight third POV with one of the characters in the story or you can zoom out and have an omniscient POV. Speigelman prefers to have his narrator be one of the characters in the story, and often one of the cynical ones. Maus is less cynical than most of his work, which is probably why it was so powerful.

If you are trying to learn about comics, the one and only best place to start is with Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics. It's a fantastic treatise on comic history and on the peculiar language of graphic storytelling.

Rob Lefebvre · Jul 13, 2011

I personally have never got the impression of snarky comments that you are talking about. I think it depends on the graphic Novel Style. It seems some authors prefer more narration and some very little. I believe Sin City and Watchmen are good examples. I would recommend both. Hope you find some that you like.

Graphic Novel Newbie

Smirkin

eating cookies late at night

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

Bicyclefish

Pedaling Pescado

Smirkin

eating cookies late at night

Max Vaehling

Smirkin

eating cookies late at night

elae

time to draw

Max Vaehling

Bicyclefish

Pedaling Pescado

Axler

Matt Maxwell

Bicyclefish

Pedaling Pescado

Axler

Bicyclefish

Pedaling Pescado

Matt Maxwell

Max Vaehling

Axler

RemusShepherd

Rob Lefebvre

Ass kicker