Father or Pater?

gothicangel · Jun 15, 2011

I've been throwing this one around in my mind lately, and still can't decide which to opt for. The draft currently uses father.

Now I've seen some books use the term father, but I've seen a few use Pater. Now I know I can use either, but I would love to hear other's thoughts.

Tom from UK · Jun 15, 2011

Depends on social class and period.

gothicangel · Jun 15, 2011

Tom from UK said:
Depends on social class and period.

2nd century AD, [162 AD to be precise, Roman Britain]. My protaganist is a time-served Praetorian Guard.

Should have mentioned that.

I think it's more of a stylistic question.

areteus · Jun 15, 2011

Agree with the above... and also depends on your character and their relationship with their father...

In most periods I don't think it matters - it is personal choice and few would argue you should have used the other. All you are doing really is expressing the same word in two different languages.

Incidentally, in the same social settings and periods you may see pater there is also the option of 'papa' which I do recall being used in Pride and Prejudice.

areteus · Jun 15, 2011

gothicangel said:
2nd century AD, [162 AD to be precise, Roman Britain]. My protaganist is a time-served Praetorian Guard.

Should have mentioned that.

I think it's more of a stylistic question.

Well, given that the character will be speaking Latin, Pater is correct. However, given that you have not written all her dialogue in Latin (cos that limits the number of people who may actually be able to read your book

) you can use father as well... it is entirely up to you. Which feels right?

Deleted member 42 · Jun 15, 2011

Unless you're writing the entire thing in Latin, use Father.

gothicangel · Jun 15, 2011

Medievalist said:
Unless you're writing the entire thing in Latin, use Father.

I do think that is the way that I'm going. Thanks.

The father-son relationship in Roman culture is quite complex, bound up with ideas of virtue and honour and it can be quite difficult to convey.

I think the most recent example would be the concept of potestas. Basically, it's the belief that a son remains under the control of his father in the eyes of other Romans [linked to ideas of honour] until he had assumed his own public identity in Roman society, usually through military service.

Puma · Jun 15, 2011

With many stories about other cultures, a few words in the cultural language creep in, and, in my opinion, add to the story. Father is an excellent choice for being one of those words.

So, my question would be, if your story was set in 18th century Germany, would you choose Father or Vater (or France or Spain or ...)? Puma

Anne Lyle · Jun 15, 2011

gothicangel said:
The father-son relationship in Roman culture is quite complex, bound up with ideas of virtue and honour and it can be quite difficult to convey.

Conveying nuances of culture is IMHO the hardest part of writing historical fiction. Readers are always going to bring their modern-day mores to a situation. I'm having this same issue with Elizabethan attitudes to homosexuality.

All you can really do is show the characters behaving in a consistent way and hope the readers pick up on it. Maybe you can drop some hints through dialogue?

gothicangel · Jun 15, 2011

Anne Lyle said:
Conveying nuances of culture is IMHO the hardest part of writing historical fiction. Readers are always going to bring their modern-day mores to a situation. I'm having this same issue with Elizabethan attitudes to homosexuality.

All you can really do is show the characters behaving in a consistent way and hope the readers pick up on it. Maybe you can drop some hints through dialogue?

Yes, I have been doing this to a certain extent. The concept of honour in Roman culture is a major motivation for my protaganist. Definitely agree it's the hardest part explaining how the Roman's live and died by how they were seen by others.

gothicangel · Jun 15, 2011

Puma said:
With many stories about other cultures, a few words in the cultural language creep in, and, in my opinion, add to the story. Father is an excellent choice for being one of those words.

So, my question would be, if your story was set in 18th century Germany, would you choose Father or Vater (or France or Spain or ...)? Puma

Ack! Now you've got me swinging back to using pater.

pdr · Jun 15, 2011

Actually

I'm with puma in that pater could be a bit of historical detail and colour but only if it flows in the dialogue.

If you've got very modern speech patterns it will stick out like a sore thumb. If you've managed to achieve dialogue which sounds Roman then it will probably fit in.

Read your dialogue allowed and listen to how pater sounds.

Another thing is using pater only in your MC's thoughts if you have a close POV and the reader is often inside your MC's head.

mscelina · Jun 15, 2011

As the managing editor of a historical fiction imprint, I'm telling you (my opinion) quite frankly--use Father.

Naturally, you're going to want to use words from the protagonist's tongue to flavor the manuscript, but with Latin, you're going to want to use words that impact the modern day reader and evoke that feel of ancient Rome--centurion, legion, proper names like the Via Appia, and Latin words that have passed directly into English. Not a word like "Pater" when most modern day readers aren't going to make the connection between pater and father unless you tell them.

However, that being said, if you're wanting to play up the concept of Roman duty from son to father and the traditions of honor, paterfamilias might be the direction you want to go. Use Father in conversation and internal dialogue, and paterfamilias for the concept in your narrative. That might be a better option for you.

Deleted member 42 · Jun 15, 2011

I note that based on the dialog of Terrence etc. Pater was not used in direct address.

I also note that Father is completely, totally cognate. I don't think Pater really buys you anything.

Mr Flibble · Jun 15, 2011

mscelina said:
ANot a word like "Pater" when most modern day readers aren't going to make the connection between pater and father unless you tell them./QUOTE]

Well considering most 'posh' peoples over here that have gone to public school were (not now perhaps, but when I were reading earlier in my life, and interacting earlier i my life) often though to call their parents Mater and Pater...it might not be so estranging. A cultural difference again, but if I hear someone saying 'Pater' I think 'posh person what has gone to Eton or somesuch'

If you give it in context, why not? Jut depends on whether it fits the voice of the character. Like the difference between 'Father' and 'Dad'

austen · Jun 15, 2011

When I read your initial post, I also thought of "Pater" being what the British call their fathers, too. I read To Serve Him All My Days fairy recently, so that's probably why. I agree mscelina, I think you should choose foreign words that carry the most punch.

mscelina · Jun 15, 2011

IdiotsRUs said:
mscelina said:

ANot a word like "Pater" when most modern day readers aren't going to make the connection between pater and father unless you tell them./QUOTE]

Well considering most 'posh' peoples over here that have gone to public school were (not now perhaps, but when I were reading earlier in my life, and interacting earlier i my life) often though to call their parents Mater and Pater...it might not be so estranging. A cultural difference again, but if I hear someone saying 'Pater' I think 'posh person what has gone to Eton or somesuch'

If you give it in context, why not? Jut depends on whether it fits the voice of the character. Like the difference between 'Father' and 'Dad'

Click to expand...

That kind of familiar usage is completely alien on this side of the pond to most people.

*shrug* It's entirely up to you, of course, but out of the superfluity of Latin words and phrases, I think 'pater' is a wasted usage. Is the writer going to use 'mater' 'frater' 'soror' 'filius' and 'filia' too? If not, then why single out 'pater'? It doesn't make sense to me. Dialogue should be the most natural part of the narrative IMO, and using 'pater' just to emphasize that the original language of the characters is Latin feel stilted and unnatural.

I could be wrong, of course. But that's the way I see it.

gothicangel · Jun 15, 2011

mscelina said:
As the managing editor of a historical fiction imprint, I'm telling you (my opinion) quite frankly--use Father.

Naturally, you're going to want to use words from the protagonist's tongue to flavor the manuscript, but with Latin, you're going to want to use words that impact the modern day reader and evoke that feel of ancient Rome--centurion, legion, proper names like the Via Appia, and Latin words that have passed directly into English. Not a word like "Pater" when most modern day readers aren't going to make the connection between pater and father unless you tell them.

However, that being said, if you're wanting to play up the concept of Roman duty from son to father and the traditions of honor, paterfamilias might be the direction you want to go. Use Father in conversation and internal dialogue, and paterfamilias for the concept in your narrative. That might be a better option for you.

Thanks, I really appreciate this.

gothicangel · Jun 15, 2011

Medievalist said:
I note that based on the dialog of Terrence etc. Pater was not used in direct address.

I also note that Father is completely, totally cognate. I don't think Pater really buys you anything.

That, I did not know. Damn, I need to get back to the books.

Forestqueen808 · Jun 16, 2011

I personally think Pater. I mean, you don't have to write the whole thing in Latin. The title really makes it eye catching and adds spice to it. If it was just Father (my opinion) it would show nothing of the language or culture. Does he call his father Pater in the book at all?

gothicangel · Jun 16, 2011

Forestqueen808 said:
Does he call his father Pater in the book at all?

Not at the moment. When I started writing the book I opted for father and decided if I changed my mind I would alter it later.

Tom from UK · Jun 16, 2011

FWIW I was at Oxford in the 1970s and have the odd 'posh' friend. I have never EVER heard anyone refer to their father as 'Pater' except in jest. Perhaps it's just that I never got to meet the really posh kids.

I would say that using 'Pater' very clearly identifies the user as being in a particular social class. I would not expect to warm to such a character but that could well just be me.

Flicka · Jun 19, 2011

Medievalist said:
Unless you're writing the entire thing in Latin, use Father.

This. And incidentally, I'd say the same for Father/Vater. Stick with English.

gothicangel · Jun 20, 2011

Flicka said:
This. And incidentally, I'd say the same for Father/Vater. Stick with English.

I have settled with father, but I've come to a compromise by inflecting the dialogue with some Latin. Not everything translates neatly into English. Virtus for example translates into virtue, but it has a very different meaning to what you and I would understand [in a Christian sense.] To the Romans it meant family honour, behaving like a man and developing the reputation of your ancestors.

I have come to a compromise with the pater issue, in respect to the idea of pater-familias. When my his son steps over the line, my MC turns round to remind him that 'I am still your pater' [refering to the authority he holds over his sons.]

I think its a nice compromise.

Flicka · Jun 20, 2011

Yeah, some words are whole concepts that don't translate well - gratia would be another Latin expression that doesn't really translate well, I suppose. There's no English word for the Roman meaning, really.

It's almost worse when you write historicals where they speak English and a period word might mean something entirely different now. Sometimes it's tricky writing around that!

Father or Pater?

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