Referencing Brand Names, Designer Labels etc...

unthoughtknown · Nov 1, 2005

Just double-checking here...

I understand there isn't a problem, copyright-wise, when you reference brand names, labels etc. in a story?

I'm safe if I wanted to mention my Versace jeans - etc?

Furthermore, my MC is going to have a thing about perfumes. Throughout the story, if I wanted to mention specific designer names and their product details such as Christian Dior's Diorella - as an example - are there any copyright dangers here?

blacbird · Nov 1, 2005

There is no problem referencing trademarked names in the manner you describe. Now, you don't want to say something like "My Versace jeans were so poorly stitched that they fell apart in the laundry." But that's not a trademark issue; rather one of libel.

The other thing to be aware of is that trademark holders can be legitimately concerned about the use of their trademarked name as a substitute for a generic object or process: Kleenex for tissues, xeroxing for photocopying, velcro for cloth fastener, etc. Such usage over time can be interpreted as placing the terminology in public domain, and the trademark holders lose their privileges. This happened early in the 20th Century with aspirin. I think zipper might be another example.

bird

maestrowork · Nov 1, 2005

There should be no copyright issue with trademarks. However, if you make something up like "Koka kola" and portray the company as evil overlords, you may hear from their lawyers (but only if you sell 1 million copies of your book, I suspect).

reph · Nov 1, 2005

jen.nifer said:
I understand there isn't a problem, copyright-wise, when you reference brand names, labels etc. in a story?

Side note: there's a problem usagewise when you use "reference" as a verb. Please don't perpetuate this misuse. The more people see it, the more they'll think it's correct.

emeraldcite · Nov 1, 2005

Side side note: Overuse of product names is annoying (in many cases).

Or, maybe that just bothers me. I'm not a fashionista, so dropping clothing names, gun types, and car specs can often prove useless and can alienate readers...

or it may draw them in.

It's official: It's AW Ambiguity Night! (sorry...)

maestrowork · Nov 1, 2005

Yeah, but saying a "Prada bag" is so much more interesting (show characters) than "a designer bag" (ho hum). A Coke is more detailed than a "soda." But I agree, using Kleenex to mean facial tissues is kind of dumb...

unthoughtknown · Nov 1, 2005

And then I thought I could omit the designer name... and just make up the perfume names myself...

unthoughtknown · Nov 1, 2005

reph said:
Side note: there's a problem usagewise when you use "reference" as a verb. Please don't perpetuate this misuse. The more people see it, the more they'll think it's correct.

So I should have said 'make a reference to' or 'refer to'...

Damn the idiot that I originally picked this up from then. Yikes. And it's so widely used too...

Sage · Nov 1, 2005

maestrowork said:
Yeah, but saying a "Prada bag" is so much more interesting (show characters) than "a designer bag" (ho hum). A Coke is more detailed than a "soda." But I agree, using Kleenex to mean facial tissues is kind of dumb...

In some areas, ppl say "Coke" to mean any soda. My friend at college & his family would go, "You want a Coke?" "Sure." "What kind?" "A 7up." & he swore that everyone he grew up with did that too.

How can anyone tell if using "Kleenex" in a book was referring specifically to Kleenex brand tissue or just tissue in general? In person, though, yeah. If you're using Puffs, it's not Kleenex.

emeraldcite · Nov 1, 2005

In the northeastern US it's "pop" from sodapop.

maestrowork · Nov 1, 2005

Sage said:
How can anyone tell if using "Kleenex" in a book was referring specifically to Kleenex brand tissue or just tissue in general? In person, though, yeah. If you're using Puffs, it's not Kleenex.

I'd say if you're right in first person, Kleenex might mean tissue in general, depending on your character. But if you're writing in 3rd person, I think you need to be objective and precise, so Kleenex would mean Kleenex, and not Puffs...

DamaNegra · Nov 1, 2005

Where I live, every kind of tissue is a 'Kleenex', no matter what brand is it. Also, 'coke' is used to refer any kind of soda, even if it's Pepsi or whatever. It really depends on where the character lives, up north (of Mexico) they say soda instead of coke, and in the center of Mexico they say coke instead of soda, it all depends on geographical location. Durex is also used in central mexico to refer to masking tape (or whatever it's writen, I personally use Durex), and so on so on.

katiemac · Nov 1, 2005

In the northeastern US it's "pop" from sodapop.

Not always! I say "soda." And it's always Kleenex.

Side note: there's a problem usagewise when you use "reference" as a verb. Please don't perpetuate this misuse. The more people see it, the more they'll think it's correct.

Reph, can you expand on "reference" as a verb? I never would have thought it was an improper use - probably because I've seen it everywhere. Even more, I use it all the time in academic papers.

unthoughtknown · Nov 1, 2005

katiemac said:
Even more, I use it all the time in academic papers.

I still feel silly... but not quite as much after reading that

maestrowork · Nov 1, 2005

According to dictionary.com:

tr.v. ref·er·enced, ref·er·enc·ing, ref·er·ences

To supply references to: “Our memories are addressed and referenced... by significant fragments of their own content” (Frederick Turner).
To mention in a reference; refer to: He referenced her book in his speech.

unthoughtknown · Nov 1, 2005

Well, definition no.2 is interesting isn't it?

katdad · Nov 1, 2005

emeraldcite said:
In the northeastern US it's "pop" from sodapop.

In the middle states where I grew up, "pop" meant soda pop, and "soda" mean an ice cream soda.

katdad · Nov 1, 2005

jen.nifer said:
Just double-checking here...

I understand there isn't a problem, copyright-wise, when you reference brand names, labels etc. in a story?

I'm safe if I wanted to mention my Versace jeans - etc?

You're okay. It's not copyright infringement to mention brand names and do a little product placement in your books.

I do this all the time in my mystery novels, but that's standard for crime fiction.

The only time you can get into trouble is if you badmouth a product name. Of course, your publisher should vet all references during the edit process, but if you're gonna trash something, be sure it's generic or a ficticious brand name.

reph · Nov 1, 2005

In my print dictionaries, "reference" is only a noun and an adjective, as in "a reference book." dictionary.com is more recent. It probably takes a descriptive, as opposed to prescriptive, approach – that is, it goes along nonjudgmentally with whatever people do with words. "Reference" as a verb looks yucky to me, like "access" and "impact" as verbs. I believe this use started in law, where they have a lot of references, and spread next to business and government. I don't remember hearing it before ten years ago at the earliest. That makes it an upstart as far as I'm concerned.

The use of "soda" and "pop" in the U.S. varies by region. Linguists have mapped it.

jules · Nov 2, 2005

Compact OED (3rd ed) has 'reference' as a verb, but only to mean "provide (a book or article) with references" i.e. meaning 1 of the two that maestrowork posted.

Sharon Mock · Nov 4, 2005

blacbird said:
The other thing to be aware of is that trademark holders can be legitimately concerned about the use of their trademarked name as a substitute for a generic object or process: Kleenex for tissues, xeroxing for photocopying, velcro for cloth fastener, etc. Such usage over time can be interpreted as placing the terminology in public domain, and the trademark holders lose their privileges. This happened early in the 20th Century with aspirin. I think zipper might be another example.

Though trademark holders can be concerned about how you use their mark, I believe they can't do anything about it if you're not deliberately obfuscating.

A magazine ad for Puffs brand kleenex? Completely actionable.

"Hand me a kleenex?" Though the trademark holder may send you a letter informing you that Kleenex(tm) brand facial tissue is not synonymous with facial tissue, as I understand it you have no obligation to change the reference.

However. I Am Not A Lawyer.

jst5150 · Nov 7, 2005

My sense with usage of trademarks and brands is this: if they are integral part of your work (i.e., without the use of the trademark or brand, your book goes nowhere), then you need to get -- to use a phrase -- the expressed, written permission of that brand owner.

Further, unless you are portraying that brand in a positive light (i.e., you're acting as a de facto positive-spinning mouthpiece for that brand), chances are you won't get to use the brand. And if you decide to go that route, that also means a cut from your pie, depeding on what company owns the brand.

A large, Kirstie Alley-sized cut.

Referencing Brand Names, Designer Labels etc...

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