Switching narrator. Mid-chapter.

It's done all the time in different scenes seperated with a line drop.

If each is a third person narrator, that won't bother me. Separate with scene break. What I dislike is when the author changes from third person to first and back again. Ugh.

az, what's a third-person narrator? Don't narrators always speak in first person?

I meant third person limited or omniscient viewpoint.

Narrators

reph said:

az, what's a third-person narrator? Don't narrators always speak in first person?

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No. Narrators can speak in any voice, first person, second person, third person, omniscient, or objective. Only first person narrators speak in first person.

Jamesaritchie said:

No. Narrators can speak in any voice....

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Then is every story and novel considered to have a narrator even if no character in the action is (or could be) called I?

I believe so. Even if there is no mention of who is telling the story there is a narrator. In fact that narrator will play some role in the story even if they are not identified. If you think of a movie, think of the way the move is shot. The director and cinematographer still play a role. Many modern writers used their narrator to accomplish something in the story. Sound and Fury plays with it, but not the same as what you are asking....Maybe Ulysses, stream of consciousness stuff. That REALLY plays a role and sometimes the narrator is not identified.



There is always something called implied author in every story (to the best of my knowledge). The unidentified narrator could be found there, but it gets tricky after that. Just as a tidbit: the movie Blade Runner has one of the best implied author scenes I’ve ever seen in a movie (the beginning) starting so far away [the narrator (unidentified director) is screaming “I have nothing to do with this world.]”



All of this is my opinion; please take it as you will. Oh, Grapes of Wrath. This may be more pointed at what you are looking for. Is the author in the cut scenes? I don’t know. Now Let us Praise Famous Men plays a little with this too (not exactly a novel).

egem said:

There is always something called implied author in every story (to the best of my knowledge). The unidentified narrator could be found there, but it gets tricky after that. Just as a tidbit: the movie Blade Runner has one of the best implied author scenes I’ve ever seen in a movie (the beginning) starting so far away [the narrator (unidentified director) is screaming “I have nothing to do with this world.]”

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Interesting that you bring up Blade Runner in this context, because in the longer version, there is a narrator. It is first person, the detective. This was always pretty weird to me that he was narrating in some parts, and yet the story starts somewhere he has no knowledge of. The novel is third person, but the narration was put it in to play up the sci-fi noir aspect.

Sc00t, I once read a novel by V.C. Andrews (perhaps not the best example, but the first one I thought of) that did switch first person narrators in the same chapter. She used line breaks, and put the name of the person speaking before the text. IMO, if you are going to do this, you must identify the narrator immediately. If you do not, you will probably confuse the reader to the point of taking him/her right out of the story. Actually, I would even go so far as to say that if you go to the next chapter, you still need to do this, because people usually assume it's going to be the same.

A friend of mine wrote a story that changed first person POV throughout. He used a name first every time he did it. Once, he used the name of a mother character who had not been named yet. (The story was mostly about teens, and she was only referred to as, "my mom.") He used her name, and it was very interesting, because you started out thinking she was one of the teenagers. Then, when you realized who she was, that association of thinking of her as a teen reflected a lot about her personality. She wasn't really grown up yet, so it was fitting to look at her the same way you looked at the kids.

As a direct response to your idea, I would suggest that you keep the POV the same until we see something happen. I'm not really sure from your description, but it sounded like you were saying you wanted to start out with one characters thoughts, and move onto someone else's. But I think it would be better to have the first character talking about something really happening, and then another character present could go on and react to it.

reph said:

Then is every story and novel considered to have a narrator even if no character in the action is (or could be) called I?

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Yes. Someone is telling the story, be it the first person protagonist, the writer, the third person protagonist, or a nebulous God-like being. You can get in some heated arguments about who the narrator is in some stories, but if no one told the story, there wouldn't be a story.

When I write third person limited, I try my best to write it as if the POV character is telling the story, just as I would in first person.

And any story that has narrative, which is pretty much all stories, has a narrator hiding somewhere in the woodwork. Narrative is what a narrator narrates. The question is who the narrator is in a given story.

And, of course, if you think about movies, many of them have a third person narrator in voice over. "The Ten Commandments" is a good example.

But it's possible, very rare, but possible, to have a first person protagonist tell the story primarily in second or third person. Since it's possible for a real person to speak in second or third person, it's also possible for a first person protagonist to do the same. Though I think the only place I've seen this done is in literary short stories.

In my novel I have two main characters and mostly I've been switching every chapter back and forth between them in third person view. I haven't had to try switching mid-chapter, but this may come up later on if I need to. I'm not exactly sure right now.

Jamesaritchie said:

When I write third person limited, I try my best to write it as if the POV character is telling the story, just as I would in first person.

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Me, too. This is my favorite type of story to read, as well. Once I had a chapter or two up for critique on critters, and someone noticed that the narrative in character X's POV had a different tone and style than the narrative in character Y's POV. He slapped my hands for that. I didn't think that was a "bad" thing, or "wrong." Personal preference, maybe?

POV-character changing within a chapter can be diffiuclt to handle well, but certianly possible. a number of fantasy books i've read that feature huge casts of characters change narrators mid-chapter, usually because they also change physical location.

more interestingly, Mercedes Lackey's "black Gryphon" is told in third person limited, but changes viewpoint characters frequently- often mid-scene. she'll put in a linebreak and strat over with another POV in the middle of a heated argument between characterws, allowing us to hear both sides of the story, and similar stunts. worth a read.

Sc00t said:

It's not done. Generally a first person narrator at least completes a chapter, if not the entire novel being written under one narrator. So what are your thoughts on switching narrator in the middle of a chapter?

At the moment I'm writing a chapter in my novel which introduces three characters at once. It opens with the thoughts of one character, but I was thinking of switching from one character to another and follow a different trail of thought. A different perspective in the same chapter.

Thoughts?

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It could work if you do it well... certainly there are books that switch 1st person POVs within a chapter (but NOT within a scene). In general, I think it's a bad idea because it could easily confuse the readers (who is talking here now?) and also it makes it difficult for the readers to identify with any particular character.

I generally find multiple 1st person narrators annoying because I have to switch mindset (who is talking to me now?) -- exception: House of Sand and Fog which is very well written. So if you do that switch in a chapter, it would really annoy me.

reph said:

Then is every story and novel considered to have a narrator even if no character in the action is (or could be) called I?

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My understanding is: Yes. There is this "invisible" narrator in every story, even if there's no "I." In 1st person, obviously the narrator is the POV character. In 2nd person, the narrator is like a friend telling you a story... in 3rd person, the narrator could be a "God-like" person who knows everything, or he could be "invisible" (assuming a very low key, objective voice) or he could be one of the characters: Bob Dole did this and Bob Dole did that.

It is possible to have a 1st person narrator narrating a 3rd person story... imagine the Great Gatsby with all the references about Nick Carraway taken out. Nick Carraway could still be telling a story about Jay Gatsby, but he doesn't have to mention himself...

Hmmm . . . maybe I'm not doing things right? If I have to switch POV's, I always mention it. I'll write one paragraph, then, on its own line, with its own formatting, name the POV I've changed to, then begin writing in it in the next paragraph. For example, it looks like this:

Name of POV I've switched to, for example, Narrator, or Charles.

I always just flat out tell things like that, when I start a new chapter, I note the date and time that the scene is starting on. Should I not be?

I've been doing a thing where I use journal entries of the MC as an excuse to switch narrator to first person, often in mid chapter.

To tell you the truth, it's not being received so well. The people who've read it always have problems with that, and certainly nobody's thought of it as a good point.

So I'd agree with others and say it has to be done right if you're going to do it at all. I'll check back if I ever figure it out, but at the moment, I'm doing it wrong. Ah well. Live and learn.

TNT: Find published books you like that do it that way, then copy the technique.

Okay well when I said narrator, I guess I used the wrong term. Though the topic is interesting to read, it helps me zero haha.

I suppose what I actually meant when reading over my chapter was kind of... the subject, in a manner of speaking. The chapter opens with a significant concentration on the thoughts, feelings, appearence, etc. of one person, then it moves across into a different person and how they got to where they are, and how they feel about the position they are in.

Here's an excerpt to exemplify my point:
Astronaut David Herron was a large, perfectly tanned, and slightly rugged looking man. His physique was a literal job requirement that came with his years of service in the U.S. Air Force as a test pilot and, more recently, his strict training regime within the confines of his NASA base. A former Colonel of the United States Air Force, Herron had been drafted by NASA to take part in their most recent mission, the voyage to Mars. For the last three months Herron had been under strenuous exercise and the subject of countless academic and physical examinations. All of which he had passed with flying colours.

At this moment in time Herron found himself sitting in front of the Administrator of NASA and his deputy. Alongside Herron sat his pilot and a micro-biologist who would be accompanying them on the mission to offer his expertise in the field of sample collection and analysis. “I feel like I should have some extra training.” Doctor Fredrick McQuaid was a pint sized man his skin as pale as the laboratory coat that draped over the back of his seat. As he sat in front of the two highest ranked members of NASA he attempted to argue his case, but it was useless.

“You do not need to be in the physical shape that our Commander and Pilot do.” explained the Deputy Administrator. Fredrick seemed unconvinced. A hint of fear glazed his eyes for a moment. He attempted to offer further objection but his concerns fell on deaf ears.

“Freddy,” Herron blurted impatiently “All you have to do is sit in your seat and enjoy the ride. Your job doesn’t require as much strenuous activity as ours does.”

“I know bu—” It was hopeless. The conversation had already moved on to launch strategies and a final briefing on the codes and numbers included in the handling of the spacecraft. Freddy could hardly help gazing out of the window across to the next building. He thought about what they were doing. Filing paper work, typing up a document, standing over the water cooler discussing last nights television broadcast. How he longed to be over in that office.

It was true to say that he had not been forced into participating in the mission, but how could he, or any man for that matter, resist the opportunity of becoming one of the first men on Mars? The money he could make from the publicity would be enough to ensure that he never needed work for the rest of his natural life. It was an opportunity that he would not be passing up. Nonetheless as the months went on Freddy came to realise just how dangerous the mission was. The spacecraft had never been test flown, it was a one of a kind and the launch would be a one time deal. He had seen footage on television of spacecrafts exploding on the launch pad; he had read stories of spacecrafts floating off into open space once it broke free from Earths’ orbit. The more he was told about the mission the more he regretted his decision to take the Administrator up on his generous offer.

(feel free to offer critique, whilst you're here if you feel the need. Hehe)

Scott Perry said:

I suppose what I actually meant when reading over my chapter was kind of... the subject, in a manner of speaking. The chapter opens with a significant concentration on the thoughts, feelings, appearence, etc. of one person, then it moves across into a different person and how they got to where they are, and how they feel about the position they are in.

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Showing someone's thoughts and feelings means that person is the point-of-view character. But then be careful about appearance.

Astronaut David Herron was a large, perfectly tanned, and slightly rugged looking man.

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The point of view is outside Herron, looking at him, unless he has a reason, at this moment in the scene, to think about how he looks.

His physique was a literal job requirement that came with his years of service in the U.S. Air Force...

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This description is background. It could come from anyone familiar with the facts. Again, are these Herron's thoughts?

At this moment in time Herron found himself sitting in front of the Administrator of NASA and his deputy.

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Definitely in Herron's point of view now: he "found himself sitting..."

Doctor Fredrick McQuaid was a pint sized man his skin as pale as the laboratory coat that draped over the back of his seat. As he sat in front of the two highest ranked members of NASA he attempted to argue his case, but it was useless.

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Is it McQuaid or Herron who perceives the argument as useless?

Fredrick seemed unconvinced. A hint of fear glazed his eyes for a moment. He attempted to offer further objection but his concerns fell on deaf ears.

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Which character observes the fear in McQuaid's eyes? Not McQuaid: it has to be someone else who can look at him. Which character notes that his argument meets deaf ears?

Freddy could hardly help gazing out of the window across to the next building. He thought about what they were doing....How he longed to be over in that office.

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This part is in McQuaid's POV.

For fuller explanations of point of view and its many pitfalls, try the thread "Learn Writing with Uncle Jim." While you're there, you may also find the discussions of "infodump" useful.

Scott Perry said:

Astronaut David Herron was a large, perfectly tanned...
“Freddy,” Herron blurted impatiently “All you have to do is sit in your seat and enjoy the ride. Your job doesn’t require as much strenuous activity as ours does.”

“I know bu—” It was hopeless. The conversation had already moved on to launch strategies and a final briefing on the codes and numbers included in the handling of the spacecraft. Freddy could hardly help gazing out of the window across to the next building. He thought about what they were doing. Filing paper work, typing up a document, standing over the water cooler discussing last nights television broadcast. How he longed to be over in that office....

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That's kind of an omniscient pov -- you're switching from Herron to Freddy mid-scene. It's not even just mid-chapter... it's in the middle of the same scene. Also, much of your passage is telling. While there's nothing inherently wrong with "telling," it makes for dull storytelling.