Is my YA novel unpublishable due to its content and themes?

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Robocracy Now

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Hello all.

Well, I'm NOT talking about traditionally "edgy" YA...although how could yet another book about sex, drugs and rock and roll be considered "edgy", I don't know.

Anyway, my novel, that I'm halfway through with, has:

* No sex
*No curses
*No graphic violence (but there is violence)
*No drug or alcohol use, let alone abuse
The closest thing to traditionally "edgy" content is that one of the characters is gay. Still, he, like the others, don't have sex and he doesn't even have a boyfriend (he's a klutz with poor social skills)

So, why do I think it may well be unpublishable, no matter how well I write it? Well...


I got the idea after I finished reading "The Hunger Games" about kids fighting gladiatorial games on the command of a totalitarian government. Well, everyone says it's a rip off of "Battle Royal," a Japanese book and film on the same premise or "The Running Man," by Stephen King, which was based on similar ideas. Well, my problem wasn't the "fighting to the death thing," as much as it was one very, VERY, over used premise: an evil totalitarian regime. (ok, in the Hunger Games it was more authoritarian than totalitarian, but what ever)

So, after I thought about it, I had an idea for a concept that I have only read in ONE other novel: basically, the hero fights FOR the fascist regime which is, for the most part, a good system, at least as it's done in the story.

Basically, my premise is that after an economic depression, America is taken over by xenophobic warmongers who were voted in by the public. That, plus the creating of national ballot initiatives resulted in democratically created police state that terrorized minorities and started World War III.

One man, a son of poor Latino immigrants who worked his was to be the richest man in America, said what no one since the founding fathers was willing to say: democracy has failed. He lead a group of pro-diversity, anti-democracy elites and young people who began a revolution. His party, the National Technocracy Party, or "the Copper Shirts" based on their uniforms, took over America and changed everything.

They set up a new system of government in which people were tested for intelligence, leadership ability, cunning, morality etc. and the results of the tests would determine in what of the five castes of society they would be placed in, with the not so smart, morally questionable Omegas at the bottom and the intelligent, seemingly born to lead Alphas on the top.

The caste system takes away all of the delusions that the populace believed in: no more rich or poor, black or white, male or female, immigrant or natural born. Society is based on one division: The weak and the strong. Anyone can be found to be strong enough to be in the Alpha caste. In fact, it is usually lower income kids who end up scoring high enough to be higher caste. The Alphas, upon raising in the ranks, are sterilized when they agree to become a part of a higher caste. This way, the society avoids ever becoming a monarchy. Child rearing is looked at like shoveling manure or digging ditches is today: something left to the lower class that no one in power would ever lower their dignity to do, even if it wasn't illegal.

Only the Alpha caste can be military officers, judges or politicians. People amongst the Alpha Caste are tested and the best of the best becomes the President, or "The Prime" as they are referred to.

The story, about 60 years after the Copper Shirts took over, a fifteen year old girl who escapes Ghana, one of the last of the democracies. It sits behind "the chaos curtain", separating the prosperous, fascist type states from the chaotic and poor democracies. Her family comes to America and she is tested for a caste. She ends up ranking amongst the strongest of the strong alphas. She is allowed to wear the party uniform (the copper shirt) and taken to an elite academy where she is taught how to use all the high tech weapons and technology, as well as the quasi-Confucian/quasi-fascist ideals of the state...think "Hogwarts" meets space marines from "Aliens" or "robotech."

Well, everything goes great until her roommate, the president's little brother (the gay kid who's a total kluts when it comes to boys), is kidnapped, and she is the prime suspect. She escapes and has to track down the terrorist who did it: pro-democracy racists who want to return America to the rule of the majority and strip the minorities of their rights.

In the end, the hero wins, and sees the good AND bad of the state and decides to fight for it while still having reservations about the system.

So, that's the idea. I've only read something similar in one other novel which you may have already guessed: Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein.

Keep in mind this is not about being pro-racist or pro-war, quite the opposite: racism is shown to be a result of the unwashed mob blaming minorities for their problems, and only the elites with the brains know better. The totalitarian state is depicted as the only thing that can keep the country united and keep the people fed and keep order on the streets, and democracy is the enemy of everything that's good. As Benjamin Franklin once said: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well arm lamb contesting the results."

BUT, the state is not perfect and the characters understand that. I'm not preaching it as a great place anymore than Tolkien preached how great Gondar was. There is corruption, crime etc, but it's the best thing going.


My main gripe with fiction, ALL FICTION, but especially science fiction and fantasy, is that the stories are so recycled. I mean, how many times have I read "Lord of the Rings" rip offs?

"A young hero rises to save the fascist state from the evils of democracy," now THAT'S a new idea!

But, it would probably NEVER get published. Democracy is the last thing you can't attack in America: you can attack religion and everything else, but you cannot say anything bad about democracy. Plus, everyone will assume it's racist, even after I make it clear that these "fascists" (not really fascism, I admit) are actually ANTI-RACIST and the democratic forces are VERY RACIST.


Then again, aside from the politics, there is really nothing "edgy" in the book. The violence is less graphic than The Hunger Games and there is no drug use, sex etc. It could be called less "edgy" than Harry Potter, considering the kids in my book listen to their teachers more and respect their elders...than again, having a Harry Potter world where Hogwarts is replaced with a military academy, Voldemort is replaced with a pro-democracy white supremacist and communists, and wizardy is replaced with National Technocracism (i.e.,a kind of enlightened fascism) might as well make it too edgy.
 
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shaldna

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Kitty Pryde

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You're going to have a really hard time convincing readers that any version of strong oppressing weak is a "good" system. When one group of people is oppressing a less powerful group, how can you say that's desirable simply because they aren't doing it based on race/religion/origin? If really smart people start oppressing less smart people, how is that good? Smart people aren't nicer, more just, or more ethical than less smart people.

"Democracy above all" is not a necessity for literature. "Freedom" is, though, and you're right that you'll be hard-pressed to show an oppressive anti-freedom government as the good guy.
 

suki

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I think you underestimate the draw of a well-written book.

IMO, nothing short of pornography is "unpublishable" for YA if done well. Write a compelling story with realistic and relatable characters, and then see. But I don't think a book that has as a central plot point a totalitarian or authoritarian government will automatically be unpublishable - even if the characters don't view that government as "bad."

What makes me have concerns is your phrasing it that the book will "attack democracy" or that it will "say anything bad about democracy." That makes me concerned that you are more focused on a message than on a compelling story.

Focus on characters and story, and allow the book's world and government to be viewed through the characters' eyes and experiences, if you want to give the book its best shot - compelling story and character are key. And if your characters view the regime as "good" or "beneficial" then that view had better be logical. But if the view isn't so much a message as a plot point, then I don't see why not if the story is done well and appropriate for the market in voice, tone, length, etc.

~suki
 

Amadan

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There is no such thing as an "unpublishable" theme or plot. You can get away with anything if the story is well-written and engaging and plausible enough to get readers to suspend their disbelief. You can portray democracy as weak and ineffectual, you can get your Rand on, you can be pro-fascist and racist.

What readers are sensitive to is not so much whether the author's politics are in agreement with theirs, but whether the author hits them over the head with his politics and bends the setting and the story to accommodate his "message." Which, frankly, it sounds like you want to do. So I'd be leery of your story, not because I think the premise is offensively wrong-headed (though I do), but because it sounds like your story is meant to be a platform for you to tell us everything you think is wrong with the world and how you'd fix it. Nobody wants to read a political screed described as fiction. Likewise, there's no such thing as a "new" idea, so nobody cares if your story is similar to previous ones, but they do care if the allegory is about as subtle as the great big axe the author is grinding ("Copper shirts," really?).

Also, your Benjamin Franklin quote is wrong, and your understanding of Starship Troopers is poor.
 

Momento Mori

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I think your problem is this: you haven't come up with a new idea. You've come up with a spin on a very old idea. Unfortunately, your spin seems (to me) to be very heavy handed and guilty of the same issues that 'pro-democracy' books have.

I'm also not sold on the idea of a pro-democracy group being racist, given that it cuts across the one person, one vote principle.

MM
 

shaldna

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I think it might be, as good background reading, to have a look at Mein Kampf. It's not a promotion of fascism, but it's an interesting insight into the thoughts of a man who ended up being one of the most influential fascists of all time.

I agree that nothing is 'unpublishable' but it is all in the execution. After all, people all over the world have, at various stages, belived that fascism is a good thing. In terms of your novel, it's all about how you present that theory.
 

Robocracy Now

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You're going to have a really hard time convincing readers that any version of strong oppressing weak is a "good" system. When one group of people is oppressing a less powerful group, how can you say that's desirable simply because they aren't doing it based on race/religion/origin? If really smart people start oppressing less smart people, how is that good? Smart people aren't nicer, more just, or more ethical than less smart people.

Not really oppression as much as it is leadership. The strong lead the weak while at the same time respecting their rights. It doesn't always work, and I'm not writing about a Utopia, just a different system.

"Democracy above all" is not a necessity for literature. "Freedom" is, though, and you're right that you'll be hard-pressed to show an oppressive anti-freedom government as the good guy.

The question is: what is freedom? Does a state that takes rights away from minorities by democratic means constitute "freedom"?

Much like Starship Troopers, I'm not writing about a police state as much as one where the criteria for political power has changed. No secret police, no political prisoners. Rule of the strong, but they have to respect the weak they rule over...in theory, if not always in practice.
 

Robocracy Now

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What makes me have concerns is your phrasing it that the book will "attack democracy" or that it will "say anything bad about democracy." That makes me concerned that you are more focused on a message than on a compelling story.

It's about an immigrant girl learning to fit into a new, strange nation that's taken her in and learning to be a warrior/leader, and than trying to clear her name when the country she loves turns against her for a crime she didn't commit.

Every story has a message, even if it's as simple as "good triumphs over evil." It's all about how the message is packaged.

Focus on characters and story, and allow the book's world and government to be viewed through the characters' eyes and experiences, if you want to give the book its best shot - compelling story and character are key. And if your characters view the regime as "good" or "beneficial" then that view had better be logical.

That's why I have the MC being a immigrant from a corrupt democracy who moves to this new system. As she learns about the system, it's strengths and weaknesses, the reader does to.
 

Robocracy Now

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I think it might be, as good background reading, to have a look at Mein Kampf. It's not a promotion of fascism, but it's an interesting insight into the thoughts of a man who ended up being one of the most influential fascists of all time.

Hitler wasn't a fascist, he was a National Socialist.

In brief: Nazi=race above all else, fascist=state above all else. Hitler valued blond Norwegians above loyal German Jews, hence, he put race above statehood. National Socialism could loosely be called fascism, but only in the loosest sense of the word.

I agree that nothing is 'unpublishable' but it is all in the execution. After all, people all over the world have, at various stages, belived that fascism is a good thing. In terms of your novel, it's all about how you present that theory.
Basically, even though the novel is more of a "how done it?" and a "got to find my kidnapped friend before the police find me and throw me in jail for kidnapping him" than a political manifesto, the system is like this:

Fascism: the state is supreme and the individual is oppressed for the glory of the state.

National Socialism:The race is supreme and the state and the individual is oppressed for the glory of the state.

National Technocracy (the system in this story): The strong individual is supreme and lifting the strong individual to greater positions of power is good for the state.
 
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Becca C.

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I agree with Suki. As long as there's a strong focus on your characters, anything can make sense. Just be careful you're not putting a didactic message before characters the reader can root for.
 

Amadan

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Hitler wasn't a fascist, he was a National Socialist.

In brief: Nazi=race above all else, fascist=stage above all else. Hitler valued blond Norwegians above loyal German Jews, hence, he put race above statehood. National Socialism could loosely be called fascism, but only in the loosest sense of the word.

OIC
 

MAP

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Like everyone else, I don't think this is unpublishable. But if you present your society as idyllic or uncorruptable, I will throw your book against the wall. But if you treat it as the lesser of two evils or this is better than what the bad guys want, it could be an interesting story.

However, I do see what I think is a failure of logic.

The caste system takes away all of the delusions that the populace believed in: no more rich or poor, black or white, male or female, immigrant or natural born. Society is based on one division: The weak and the strong. Anyone can be found to be strong enough to be in the Alpha caste. In fact, it is usually lower income kids who end up scoring high enough to be higher caste, and the children of the wealthy, who are weak as a result of never having to struggle for anything in their lives, are pushed into the lower castes.

You are assuming that the wealthy would treat their kids like they are treated in our society, but why would they? The rich would want their kids to be successful.

I think they would give them a superior education focusing on whatever your society deems as intelligence. They would send their kids to the equivalent of navy seals training to make them tough. They would do whatever they could to make their children superior. Whereas the poor would lack resources and maybe be too busy struggling day to day to survive to prepare their kids for the tests.

I don't really see how your system would be any better at getting the poor into influential positions than what we have today. Maybe I'm missing something?
 
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Momento Mori

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Given that the novel is only half-finished, I don't see the point in continuing the debate because unless and until it's completed and someone can consider it in the round, no-one's going to know whether it has a chance of publication or not.

From Robocracy's posts here, I think s/he's more interested in the politics than the story, which is always where novels like this fall down.

MM
 

Thedrellum

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What MAP said. For example, even though you hold up The Hunger Games as a bad example, what MAP describes is exactly what happens there. The better-off districts train their children from a young age to be better at the games, and they are generally the ones who are most favored to win (and often do).

Weak and strong are designations that often have to do with diet, money, and upbringing, not so much simple natural ability.
 

Robocracy Now

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Like everyone else, I don't think this is unpublishable. But if you present your society as idyllic or uncorruptable, I will throw your book against the wall. But if you treat it as the lesser of two evils or this is better than what the bad guys want, it could be an interesting story.

However, I do see what I think is a failure of logic.



You are assuming that the wealthy would treat their kids like they are treated in our society, but why would they? The rich would want their kids to be successful.

I think they would give them a superior education focusing on whatever your society deems as intelligence. They would send their kids to the equivalent of navy seals training to make them tough. They would do whatever they could to make their children superior. Whereas the poor would lack resources and maybe be too busy struggling day to day to survive to prepare their kids for the tests.

I don't really see how your system would be any better at getting the poor into influential positions than what we have today. Maybe I'm missing something?


The thing is, leadership and strength can't really be learned in a simulator. The MC is from a country in the middle of chaos and she survived on her wits, hence, she is one of the strong. Compare that to someone who never had to fight survive.

The testing is not just about physical toughness, but about an ability to survive. Few people will drop their kids off in Compton and with no money and tell them they have to learn how to survive.

A rich person might train their kids to be Naval Seals, but this society actually is not about military as much as it is personal strength. The one who can hide, manipulate, and survive and lead is the strong, and few things can teach that other than the good old school of the hard knocks.

That, and the intelligence part of it is a measure of that, intelligence, not education level. An illiterate kid who has potential for learning would score higher than someone who's had English Literature crammed down their throats since age ten.

Also, the State ensures that everyone, for the most part, has a similar education. The idea is that everyone starts off on a level plain and they see who rises to the top.
 
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Robocracy Now

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From Robocracy's posts here, I think s/he's more interested in the politics than the story, which is always where novels like this fall down.

MM

A story is only as good as its setting, and that's what I'm talking about. Like I said, the story is about an immigrant in a new place, a stranger in a strange land, who has to clear her name. The rest is just the setting and the themes.
 

Robocracy Now

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Weak and strong are designations that often have to do with diet, money, and upbringing, not so much simple natural ability.

Someone who has even after they grew up half starving and figured out how to survive and thrive in the worst environment is going to be stronger than someone who has spent their days in the country club playing tennis and eating prawns.

As the man once said, "in life's eternal school of war, that which does not kill you, will only serve to make you stronger." The opposite also holds true: those who've never endured anything are weak compared to those who've endured EVERYTHING.
 

Amadan

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As the man once said, "in life's eternal school of war, that which does not kill you, will only serve to make you stronger." The opposite also holds true: those who've never endured anything are weak compared to those who've endured EVERYTHING.


Damn, I knew you were gonna pull out the Nietzche next.

(You're misquoting him, too, btw.)
 

thothguard51

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Sounds like a political rant disguised as a YA novel...

Could work though if the YA book is only sold to like minded readers...
 

fadeaccompli

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Someone who has even after they grew up half starving and figured out how to survive and thrive in the worst environment is going to be stronger than someone who has spent their days in the country club playing tennis and eating prawns.

Are we talking about actual muscle strength "stronger"? Because a balanced childhood diet, as opposed to "half-starving" during formative body-growing years, is going to help a lot for having a strong body (and bones) later in life. Especially if the rich kids are still getting plenty of physical exercise.
 

Becca C.

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Yeah, I think in a world where being strong and able to survive is the ideal, the rich kids are going to be like those career tributes in The Hunger Games. The rich would force their children to train and to be those elite fighters and survivors. In our world, the rich kids are trained to take those lazy, fatcat desk kind of jobs because that's where the money is, that's what our society deems "successful." The way rich people raise their kids is going to be affected by the values of the world.
 

Polenth

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Dystopian societies that split people by ability aren't new, so it's not unpublishable by its concept.

But the way you've discussed it doesn't sound so great. People who support democracy are all evil racists. Rich people are too stupid to be high caste. Those details don't stand up to logical scrutiny, because in the modern day, we have people who support democracy and anti-racism. We also have intelligent and ambitious rich people. You're asking for a massive suspension of disbelief from the reader, because most readers know things are rarely that black and white.

The lack of shades of grey make it sound like a soapbox where the message is delivered with the delicacy of a sledgehammer. And that's going to be the problem, not the basic theme.
 
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