Game of Thrones- should I?

BunnyMaz

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Is the series worth picking up? After raging out with some fellow geeks on some feminist sites about the portrayal of a few characters in the TV series thus far, quite a few people took pains to reassure me that it makes sense in the books, and it works in the books, because of the added depth.

From what I understand R R Martin is pretty brutal with all his characters, which makes for some emotionally turbulent reading.

I'm tempted. I love good sci fi and fantasy, and I'm more than a little intrigued, especially with the next book in the series due out this year.

I don't have a lot of money for books at the moment, but I'm willing to skip meat for a week or 2 for the sake of a good read, so is it worth it?
 

leahzero

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Is the series worth picking up? After raging out with some fellow geeks on some feminist sites about the portrayal of a few characters in the TV series thus far, quite a few people took pains to reassure me that it makes sense in the books, and it works in the books, because of the added depth.

I'm curious--what kind of sexist issues were you picking up on in the TV show?

Maybe it's because I read the series first, but I'm usually pretty sensitive to sexist portrayals in fiction, and GRRM is about as far from sexist as you can get in fantasy, IMO. His female characters live in a sexist world, but even so they're portrayed with dignity, strength, and are some of the most admirable characters in the series. You can't help rooting for Catelyn, Arya, Dany, Brienne, and even Sansa. Cersei is an especially fascinating character, a driven, ambitious, ruthless woman who realizes just how sexist the world is, and manipulates others to exercise her power while wishing she could wield it openly.

I also read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, and I think RJ was much more sexist than GRRM. (RJ was still very mild and kind of banal about it, though.)

I wouldn't call GRRM sexist at all. It's important to distinguish between the conventions of a fictional society, and the way female characters are actually portrayed. GRRM gets it right for the most part, IMO.
 

nevada

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Don't give up meat, your body needs the protein. lol go check a second hand bookstore. That said, I have the first book but I am loving the series so much I'm not sure I want to spoil it. I'm still debating it.
 

Whimsigirl

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I read them in high school and remember enjoying them. Why not borrow the first one from the library and see how you like it first?
 

Kewii

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I've really enjoyed the series. I loved the portrayal of the characters. I think GRRM is a genius when it comes to character motivation and character driven work.

That said, I wouldn't rush to buy them even though the new one if coming out. Not to say they are not worth the read, but instead it's because of how frustrating it is to wait for the books.

There has been about 4 years between the last few books coming out. I almost wish I had waited until the series was complete to have started reading it.
 

BunnyMaz

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I'm curious--what kind of sexist issues were you picking up on in the TV show?
It wasn't so much that we found things sexist, but that there were problematic elements in different scenes. I've been reassured that they are not problematic in the wider context of the novels but, as someone who has only the TV show to go on...

The first sex scene between Dany and Drogo is rape. Not coercion, not seduction, but rape. Under that context, later indications of her coming to care for him have a very different undertone. From what I've been told, in the novels the scene reads far more as a seduction than a rape, and puts the later scenes where she takes control sexually etc in a much more positive light.

On another front, the portrayal of Drogo has been really shallow. I understand that there is a language barrier at play, but it seems like the TV producers have made a concerted effort to avoid humanising him as much as possible. He is just this glaring, mute mass of exotic barbarian savagery. If they even showed him speaking in his own language to his own men, or speaking to Dany through an interpreter, or showing any emotion at all, the mannerisms that would be required would at least portray him as a human being. Again, from what I've been told, whilst the books do write about him from Dany's perspective, they show him in a much better light overall.

Basically, it seems like oversimplification of the Dany/Drogo interactions by the TV producers (necessary, but could be done differently) has resulted in some unintended overtones. I don't think they meant for the first scene between them to read as "this guy is totally a rapey mcraperton savage taking poor pretty white delicate flower against her weepy will", but it felt that way and, to me, if a character commits rape, that changes how I see them in the future. They will always be, to a degree, that guy that raped a girl. Like if they showed him biting the heads off live kittens. It'd be kinda hard to see him sympathetically afterwards, y'know?

Maybe it's because I read the series first, but I'm usually pretty sensitive to sexist portrayals in fiction, and GRRM is about as far from sexist as you can get in fantasy, IMO. His female characters live in a sexist world, but even so they're portrayed with dignity, strength, and are some of the most admirable characters in the series.

This is pretty much what people have been telling me, and it is a big part of the reason I want to read the books so I can judge the characters on how they were meant to be portrayed, rather than how they're turning out. I have no problem with the characters living in a sexist world. Let's face it, it is pretty obvious the world they live in sucks for everyone in it. Besides, difficult lives make for exciting reading. I just don't want to find myself picking up Geekgirls of Gor by mistake! :D
 
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BunnyMaz

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That's... a pretty short answer. No I shouldn't bother with the books? No it isn't sexist? No pickles?

Any reasons why you'd not recommend it?
 

Kitty27

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Yes,you should read it. But be warned. I found myself cursing at Ned's noble foolishness,Catelyn's annoying dislike of an innocent child and her complete inability to NOT mess up things,cheering on Tyrion as he repeatedly outwitted his sister,Cersei and so on. That's a great read when your emotions can be so caught up.

For me,Dany has a whiff of Mary Sue about her in the books. I also don't like Drogo's portrayal in the show. When will they learn better? It came off exactly as you stated. Sigh. But I don't see sexist tones in the book. The characters exist in a brutal and male dominated world. Behavior that we view as absolutely heinous is normal for the world they inhabit
 

Mr. Anonymous

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I've been going back and forth about whether or not to comment but...

I mean, in the dark + middle ages, women did not have the right to say no. Of course, most of these women, being products of their time, probably didn't even realize that saying no to their husbands was a possibility. Given that, I don't think it's entirely crazy to suggest that nevertheless, some women developed a genuine feeling/love for their husbands throughout the course of their relationships.

I wouldn't call a fantasy portrayal of this kind of situation sexist, and I don't think it comes off at all that way in the book.
 

CupidToy

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It's a wonderful series. The books are available free in the library anyway. It's better to judge for yourself by reading an excerpt or the first book rather than just listening to the opinions of others on the content. People have something bad to say about every single book that's out there - so you're best off just trying new authors out if you like the genre.
 

waylander

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Read it.
GRRM is one of the very best writers currently working in epic fantasy
 

BunnyMaz

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Thank you, all of you. Suffice to say I'm reassured enough to dive in and grab a copy of the first book, at least, and give it a go.

I mean, in the dark + middle ages, women did not have the right to say no. Of course, most of these women, being products of their time, probably didn't even realize that saying no to their husbands was a possibility. Given that, I don't think it's entirely crazy to suggest that nevertheless, some women developed a genuine feeling/love for their husbands throughout the course of their relationships.

Totally get that, and I'm now looking forward to getting these scenes a second time with the added nuance of the author's voice. I guess my thing is, in a world where people can be the property of others and consent is a non-issue, all these things can exist as you say, but there is complexity there. In such a world, just as it would be normal for the woman to not see being taken by her husband as rape, it would be normal for the husband not to see what he was doing as wrong either. In books you can portray that these are instances of cultural attitudes, rather than scenes intended to cement the "bad guy" in the reader's minds, by using inner thoughts, POV, asides etc. In TV though, it is necessary to humanise the characters if you want to do this.

OMHO, but Drogo's interactions in the first episode of the series were written depicting him as a villain, rather than a complex character in a world where no one is just a protagonist or antagonist.

BLAH! I rant too much.

TL;DR, Very much convinced, definitely going to go read it now :)
 

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I love the series. I think Catelyn and Sansa especially are really great examples of a man writing interesting & different fantasy female characters.

However, imo, the issues with Dany are just as prevalent in the books. I think he ickily romanticizes rape and the Dothraki are pretty underdeveloped. Without spoiling anything, her storyline gets much better though. She's still not one of my favorites (from a character or feminist perspective) but it's not offensive.
 

Phaeal

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Man, I was freaking out there for a while: Drogo Baggins raped whom? I mean, that's the real reason the boat tipped over???

Phew, glad it was another Drogo.
 

Satori1977

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This series is definitely in my tbr pile. And now with the show out, I am more anxious to pick up the first one. Don't buy it though. I am poor and rarely buy books, and never from authors I don't know. Go to the library, it is free. :)
 

Jess Haines

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Short answer: YES. These books are fantastic if you are into what I like to call "doorstop SFF" (e.g., Robert Jordan, Terry Goodkind, C.S. Friedman, etc).

Long answer: Blargh, no time. Will have to come back to extol the virtues of this series later.
 

HobbitTon

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Read it! The series is so much better in book form than tv.
 

BunnyMaz

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I've been debating buying the books myself.

You can get the first four books for $20 right now at Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/George-Martins...HPC7B1N6M3TRY2

Bloody hell! That's like, £12 right now!

*edit*
Crap. That price is for buying in the US. If I want that price I wait 16-32 days for shipping, or buy the boxset from the UK for...

Bugger. £26. More than twice the price :(

Ah well, I can still see if the local bookshop has the first one in, they often have 3-for-2 offers etc on, so I could get the books individually for a reasonable price.
 

Emerson

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This series is probably the greatest I have ever read. Admittedly, it is not the most original thing. It's Fantasy (though it doesn't appear to be at first) and often somewhat generic, at that.

On top of the fantasy, and really the main focus for most of the time, it's an excellent character drama. The characters are all great, and their actions can genuinely surprise. Also, GRRM's ability to craft plot has got to be up there with the greatest of all time. Yes, he's brutal with his characters, and you'll want to kill someone pretty often while reading. It only speaks to the man's ability that he evokes such powerful response. I wish I could explain it better, but when you start reading you have no idea what's coming. And later in the first book, when stuff starts to go crazy, you'll think "Wow, I had no idea where this story was going to go." And you'll still have no idea how much better it gets over the next several books.

I started reading GOT randomly and about halfway in I got hooked and never looked back. You will not regret it. It only gets better and better, and it's absolutely incredible.
 

BunnyMaz

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Nothing wrong with geek girls. Nothing wrong with geek girls that read Gor. I... just don't want to read the tale of an awesome, kick-arse geek girl who comes to her true purpose by slavishly obeying the whims of some dude.

And that's speaking as a happy little D/s sub. Gorean-style slavery or what I've heard of it just squicks me out a tad.
 

Adobedragon

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From what I understand R R Martin is pretty brutal with all his characters, which makes for some emotionally turbulent reading.

As a feminist, I don't find anything offensive about A Song of Ice and Fire. The world Martin depicts is largely patriarchal and the roles of women reflect this. But I think Martin's depictions of women are some of the best I've read. And he's brutal to everyone in his stories. (Heh. Don't get too attached to anyone; never know who he'll kill off next.)

I totally recommend that you read the books.