Nutty Non-Rules of Grammar

Calliopenjo · Apr 18, 2011

Hi there,

I found a post by Grammar Monkeys on Nutty non-rules of grammar. I thought I'd share it and I hope it answers at least one of your questions.

Enjoy.
:hi:

Jamesaritchie · Apr 19, 2011

It's true that most of those rules are not rules at all, but it's also true that they make extremely good guidelines, only to be broken when and if you know what you're doing.

Maryn · Apr 19, 2011

I agree with James completely. (Easy, James--don't want you having a stroke.) These non-rules make terrific guidelines until the writer knows when and why it's appropriate to ignore them.

Maryn, fragment lover

Calliopenjo · Apr 19, 2011

I hear you. Understanding anything is the key. I just thought it might help to unravel at least some of the mysteries.

I honestly don't want to add to any confusion.

Chase · Apr 19, 2011

Excellent post for discussion, though I'm now on supplemental oxygen after Maryn agreed with James.

While I totally agree fragments may be used judiciously, I wonder about a fragment qualifying as a sentence. Doesn’t the most basic of sentences require a predicate? "Go." The preceding command verb with its implied subject is a complete sentence, but it’s not a fragment because it has the necessary verb.

To me, calling a fragment a sentence is like calling a dessert without some kind of crust or shell a pie. If it has all but the crust, it’s a pudding. Or maybe my remembered "rule" is one of those bogus rules which are figments of imagination.

Here’s another common faux rule: a new paragraph is required for each piece of dialog. Only its direct attributive may be attached.

Of course, that "rule," seen in lots of editing and beta work, is based on a misunderstanding of the real rule to begin a new paragraph when a different speaker takes over dialog.

I’m sure there are more.

maestrowork · Apr 19, 2011

Chase said:
Excellent post for discussion, though I'm now on supplemental oxygen after Maryn agreed with James.

It's one of those days. Take a deep breath.

While I totally agree fragments may be used judiciously, I wonder about a fragment qualifying as a sentence. Doesn’t the most basic of sentences require a predicate? "Go." The preceding command verb with its implied subject is a complete sentence, but it’s not a fragment because it has the necessary verb.

I love fragments, but I agree overuse of anything is a bad idea. Fragments are powerful and effective because they're not used often. But they're not complete sentences. That's why they're called sentence fragments. "Go" is not a fragment for whatever reason you gave. But "A lovely weather" is a fragment.

One of the most ridiculous rules is "do not end a sentence with a preposition." By and large it's a good advice, but there times, especially in fiction written in casual style, that such a "rule" is stupid. It's not something up with which I'm going to put.

Chase · Apr 19, 2011

maestrowork said:
"Go" is not a fragment for whatever reason you gave.

I agree with all you said about fragments. You misread my too-wordy sentence. I said "Go" is "not a fragment because it has the necessary verb."

maestrowork said:
One of the most ridiculous rules is "do not end a sentence with a preposition." By and large it's a good advice, but there times, especially in fiction written in casual style, that such a "rule" is stupid. It's not something up with which I'm going to put.

Also agree. Ending a sentence with a preposition is fine in both formal writing and fiction.

However, outside of dialog where you want the speaker to come off with lesser diction, ending a sentence with a completely unnecessary proposition IS stupid:

Where is she at?

He continued on.

We can now narrow the search down.

They finished up.

. . . where no one has gone before.

I tossed out the last one so Trekkies can scream. It only "sounds right" because the starship captains said it again and again and. . . .

Calliopenjo · Apr 19, 2011

This discussion is interesting. I must admit.

Maryn · Apr 19, 2011

Fate chose to smite me for agreeing with James. Migraine!

Maryn, who can finally see again, many hours later

Jamesaritchie · Apr 19, 2011

I don't think anything is as misunderstood as sentence fragments. I'm not sure I've ever seen an actual sentence fragment used in a published work.

The trouble with rules of grammar is that they often apply to a specific case, and then everyone tries to apply this case to something else.

The rule is about what is and isn't a sentence fragment is very well defined for a standalone sentence.

The standalone rule would make half the sentences we read fragments, but they aren't.

Many grammar books stop right there, and few read the ones that do not. I think I was in year three before an English professor actually spelled this out for us, though I think we all knew it on an instinctive level.

If a sentence is given complete context and meaning by the previous sentence, it is not a true fragment. It's next to impossible to fit a true sentence fragment into a work, and I'd say it's always done because the writer simply can't write well, and knows nothing at all about grammar.

As for ending a sentence with a preposition, nine times out of a ten, it's a very, very bad idea. Doing so one time out of ten can, however, make a sentence shine. The trick is knowing which time is the right one.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 19, 2011

Chase said:
. . . where no one has gone before.
.

Have to disagree with this one. First, in teh original Trek, it's "man", bot "no one".

"Where no man has gone" loses all sense of rhythm and power. I remember people trying to rewrite this sentence back when Star Trek first started, long before Kirk said it over and over, and every effort fell flat.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 19, 2011

Maryn said:
Fate chose to smite me for agreeing with James. Migraine!

Maryn, who can finally see again, many hours later

That'll teach you to agree with me! Quick, find something to disagree with me about.

Chase · Apr 19, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
Have to disagree with this one. First, in teh original Trek, it's "man", bot "no one".

"Where no man has gone" loses all sense of rhythm and power. I remember people trying to rewrite this sentence back when Star Trek first started, long before Kirk said it over and over, and every effort fell flat.

Nah on all counts. I said "captains." I was aboard all voyages from when Captain James Kirk took over from Captain Christopher Pike. By the time Jean Luc Picard was captain, the phase bowed, as it should have, to "one." I was a watcher because of the great female crew as much as any reason.

But true to navy form, they kept the unnecessary ending, citing lots of bogus reasons, such as the always handy "sea tradition" and the equally foolish "It sounds so right."

The split infinitive was forgiven for reasons cited in this thread.

Chase · Apr 19, 2011

I hasten to add before some diligent moderator locks this post for flaming: mostly correct in their terse way, I always enjoy your posts, James, the old Startrek gaffe excuse included.

maestrowork · Apr 19, 2011

Chase said:
. . . where no one has gone before.

I tossed out the last one so Trekkies can scream. It only "sounds right" because the starship captains said it again and again and. . . .

The famous quote also broke the split infinitive "rule": to boldly go where no man has gone before.

Chase · Apr 19, 2011

Post #13:

Chase said:
The split infinitive was forgiven for reasons cited in this thread.

Post #15:

maestrowork said:
The famous quote also broke the split infinitive "rule": to boldly go where no man has gone before.

I KNEW he ignores my posts, then takes credit. He even looks dishonest in that stovepipe hat and Abraham beard. I'm tellin'. Ban him! Close this thread!

Xelebes · Apr 19, 2011

Verb particles should not be confused with prepositions.

Take out the garbage. (Outtake makes sense. "Take the garbage out" makes sense.)

Walk into the store. (Intowalk does not make sense. Therefore "Walk the store into" does not make sense.)

Calliopenjo · Apr 19, 2011

I hope this discussion doesn't turn into a flame war.

Chase · Apr 19, 2011

Calliopenjo said:
I hope this discussion doesn't turn into a flame war.

Chase, rummaging through old footlockers looking for his flame-thrower.

MonikaRuth · Apr 19, 2011

Very interesting.
To me, this goes to show that there are so many unnecessarily nit-picky people out there. i understand that it's good have all these rules and non-rules, but it's really about having a good story an telling it in the best way possible for that particular story.

benbradley · Apr 19, 2011

"Having read the part about starting a sentence with a conjunction, I must say that starting sentences with dependent clauses can get right annoying as well."

Seriously, I recall a column in Popular Electronics from over 30 years ago in which about half the sentences had that structure, or at least every paragraph started off with a sentence like that. I hadn't thought about English grammar in years, but reading that writer's column pointed out how annoying it could be.

Purple Rose · Apr 19, 2011

Very interesting article. Thank you for posting it, Calliopenjo!

Admittedly, I thought the headline was wrong as soon as I read it, thinking the writer used "rise" instead of "be raised" because of space restrictions. Then of course, i read on and on...

Question (not covered in the article) - why do Americans not use adverbs in their daily lives yet we read it in American literature. I just do not get "Drive safe", "Ski slow", "I'm doing good", etc.

At which point do things change so that it is acceptable to drop the adverbs in daily speech or on signs or in mass media? I am so grateful that publishers still demand it in their books. I also understand that dialogues have to be natural and accept adverbs being dropped in such instances.

Just curious, now that American, through TV, has virtually taken over the world. Proof - road signs and radio broadcasters in England and Scotland beseech us to "Drive Safe" and "Call us quick!". Same in many Commonwealth countries I have visited (I'm from one).

Roger J Carlson · Apr 20, 2011

Chase said:
Nah on all counts. I said "captains." I was aboard all voyages from when Captain James Kirk took over from Captain Christopher Pike. By the time Jean Luc Picard was captain, the phase bowed, as it should have, to "one."

When Kirk was captain, "man" was generally understood to mean "mankind", which included women. By the time Picard was captain, the political landscape had changed, and "man" was perceived as excluding women. This caused a lot of ugly turns of phrases which the English language has still not resolved.

But "no one" is not a proper substitute. It is incorrect on the face of it. The mission is to "seek out new life and new civilizations". If there are civilizations there, then you can't say "no one" has gone there. Obviously, the people who are there have gone there.

If "no man" is malecentric, implying that women are not really people, then "no one" is a humanocentric phrase, implying that the people there are not really people.

Chase · Apr 20, 2011

Purple Rose said:
Just curious, now that American, through TV, has virtually taken over the world. Proof - road signs and radio broadcasters in England and Scotland beseech us to "Drive Safe" and "Call us quick!").

Not agreeing that even evil Americans have the power to change world sinage, but I do remember when road signs were longer.

"WATCH FOR FALLEN ROCK" used to be a sign near cliffs. Some visitors to Montana asked if an important Native American had become lost. Now in Oregon, the same warnings are abbreviated to "ROCK."

Could it be more letters cost more everywhere? Or perhaps faster drivers in all countries survive better with shorter warnings?

Xelebes · Apr 20, 2011

What likely happens is that there are too many signs, so you need to be able to scan all the signs as quickly as they pass by. Tumbling-Slope (image) is the sign used here.

Nutty Non-Rules of Grammar

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