Inserting world-building and mythos into story

[inanna]

How do you guys do this without info-dumping? My beta readers are telling me they want to know more about my vampire characters--more of how they work and how they came to be, etc. I've only dropped things here and there because I'm averse to big lecture passages, and it seems very difficult to get it in otherwise.

I've got tons of research on history and legend and magick systems, but nowhere to put it! It's no good if the author is the only one who knows the backstory. Any suggestions?

[badducky]

Well, I'd say the answer is easy: Write a second story that approaches the situation with a new angle. Then another.


Don't info dump. Your audience wants to know more. So write more. Use the diversity and depth of your world-building to prevent "stock" characters and situations.

The less they know the more cards you hold. The more cards you hold, the longer you have to reveal yuor hand.

[Cathy C]

Well, I tend to do it through dialogue -- generally between two people who share a common backstory, or one who is trying to understand. For example, let's say two vampires (Vlad and Dimitri) are talking (the descriptions will be brief, since it's only an exercise) :

************

Vlad: "So, how did that whole only drinking animal blood thing work out for you?" Smirks as he watches Dimitri bent over a dead thief in an alley.

Dimitri: Flinches and then snarls, quickly wiping the blood from his chin. "Go to hell, Vlad."

Vlad: Laughs darkly. "Too late, old friend. It's far too late for that. But I did warn you that animal blood couldn't sustain us. There's not enough iron. Remember what happened to Angelique when she tried? The council was barely able to bring her back from true death."

*******

So, what did you learn? You learn that Dimitri had a period where he tried not to take blood from humans, but he failed. You learn that he has a conscience and he is angry that he's been forced back into the same old game. You learn there's a council who watches over them, and other vampires have backgrounds and consciences too. You also learn that Vlad and Dimitri have a off-and-on friendship that occasionally falls into anger and possibly hatred.

This didn't take a data dump and you learned the same things as you would have FROM a data dump. Does that help?

[inanna]

Thanks Cathy--that's a good example. I think part of my problem is my POV is 3rd person limited, with an MC who knows very little about the things she is encountering. So the other characters have to lecture her if they want to get a lot of information out there. I've been trying to do that as little as posible and work it in with more subtle observations. But since my beta readers are wanting me to put the puzzle pieces together...I've got to figure out how.

I love how we could find out so much between Vlad and Dimitri with just a few lines. Of course, on the few occcasions I've had characters discuss a shared history, it always ends sounding like one of those dreaded "as you know, Bob..." conversations. But you danced around that one masterfully--thanks for the example.

[Sage]

I feel for you, Inanna. I share the same problem, of needing to explain to my MC basics about the world he's entering w/out just having a big info dump by the supporting character who's introducing him to it. Unfortunately, I also am running into the problem that if she doesn't explain some things before hand, other characters aren't going to be willing to let him go. The supporting character almost has to do a big explanation of what she needs him for, why him, & how some things are possible b4 he can actually start. I don't know how to get around this.

[Cathy C]

Third person limited is a good place to "show, not tell." With a person of limited experience in what she's encountering, it can be as simple as following another vampire around and "discovering" the backstory by the actions. Let's go with that, using the same characters:


**************

Terri watched Vlad approach the other vampire, bent down over the neck of the man who had just mugged that poor woman. It would have been so much easier to take the victim, who was unconscious from the blow to her head. But he'd waited for the mugger. That seemed almost . . . noble. But their kind weren't supposed to be noble, were they?

(Insert previous conversation, and add in Terri's thoughts as she watches.)

Vlad would be introducing her to the council, or so he promised. Terri flinched when she heard the comment about animal blood. It was the very thing she was been considering when she learned she would have to kill to survive in this new existence.

*************

[DaveKuzminski]

Right now, I'm having a different problem. Essentially, my character can travel through time and is deliberately trying to change one outcome. However, doing so affects other things, including the background of her own culture and her own feelings. When she started, she tried not to kill anyone. Eventually, she reached the point where she accepted that death might come regardless of her efforts and then she did kill, though in self defense. Now she's actually considering that murder might be acceptable. I'm not sure this is a result of maturity and acceptance of the fact or the influence by time travel and changes she's caused already.

So, any opinions on which would be better?

[inanna]

Right now, I'm having a different problem. Essentially, my character can travel through time and is deliberately trying to change one outcome. However, doing so affects other things, including the background of her own culture and her own feelings. When she started, she tried not to kill anyone. Eventually, she reached the point where she accepted that death might come regardless of her efforts and then she did kill, though in self defense. Now she's actually considering that murder might be acceptable. I'm not sure this is a result of maturity and acceptance of the fact or the influence by time travel and changes she's caused already.

So, any opinions on which would be better?

The idea that changing her past is changing her internal attitudes and beliefs is very intriguing. So, (assuming I understand your premise correctly) I would pick that if it were me. Sounds cool!

[Minister]

Back on the world-building without info-dumping:

First, keep in mind that you don't have to answer all the questions about the world right away. You can clue people in gradually, on a "need-to-know" basis. (Of course, you shouldn't cheat by withholding information that your POV character knows.) To sustain this, you need interesting characters and conflict to draw your story along.

Second, information can be inserted most seemlessly in a scene involving conflict. Pure exposition is dry; if you can give the same information, but insert it into a scene with conflict, it will be much more interesting. Remember the scene in Star Wars episode IV, in which Vader strangled the young officer? We learned all sorts of things about Vader and his powers (and could deduce things about his background) -- yet there was practically no exposition. We had characters and conflict, and those revealed the information we needed. I often also recommend vintage Heinlein as an example of seamlessly interweaving information about his world with his plot and characterization.

[Mr Underhill]

Write a second story that approaches the situation with a new angle. Then another.


Don't info dump. Your audience wants to know more. So write more. Use the diversity and depth of your world-building to prevent "stock" characters and situations.

The less they know the more cards you hold.This is excellent and concise advice. Since the topic is vampires, consider the original three vampire chronicles by Ms Rice. The desire to find out more about the vampires' world and "how they work" was a major element in my desire to read successive books. After Queen of the Damned I rather felt I knew most of it, and coupled with the fact that it seemed to go far afield of the original vision, I completely lost interest. Keeping some elements of mystery is always a good idea for SF&F type writers. Always keep 'em coming back for more, as they say.

The application of "show don't tell" to world-building was covered in the LWWUJ thread several months ago. For an extended description of this, you might see my long post on the subject in amongst the discussion.

[Sage]

First, keep in mind that you don't have to answer all the questions about the world right away. You can clue people in gradually, on a "need-to-know" basis. (Of course, you shouldn't cheat by withholding information that your POV character knows.) To sustain this, you need interesting characters and conflict to draw your story along.

But what if one of your character needs to know, not everything, but a lot of information all at once, & another character there knows it, & they can't move on until they find out the information?

Let's say your character is young, & another character is asking him to accompany them to another world. His parents are there, & they want more information before they allow their son to go so far away. How do you let the character from the other world give them the information they need, without just answering questions for a few pages?

[triceretops]

Here's a prime example of just how important world building is. Below is an agent who really wanted to like my manuscript, as evidenced from his very first reponse/query to me, and also his review of the partial (below) with the "write very well" and "good concept" remarks. However, I failed somehow to draw him into a futuristic world. Whether it was atmosphere, physical structures, politics, society, or some other facet (or combination of all), I just missed the boat in having him request a full. How do you do it? I dunno. I don't know where I goofed, so I imagine a good beta reader might help ferret this problem out. It just goes to show you how world-building plays a vital role in the "mood" or "tone" of a script. Especially is sf and fantasy.


Mr. Stevenson,

I apologize for the very lengthy time that it has taken me to get back to
you. I've finally read the sample that you sent me and reluctantly I'm going to pass on the opportunity to represent it. Clearly you write very well and I like the story concept, but I just kept have trouble picturing the world you were describing and I didn't feel compelled to keep reading. I'm sure another agent will see this differently, and I wish you the best of luck
with it.

Feeling a "World" or hurt.

Tri

[Mr Underhill]

But what if one of your character needs to know, not everything, but a lot of information all at once, & another character there knows it, & they can't move on until they find out the information?

Let's say your character is young, & another character is asking him to accompany them to another world. His parents are there, & they want more information before they allow their son to go so far away. How do you let the character from the other world give them the information they need, without just answering questions for a few pages?

In real life information dumps do happen. But that's not to say they must happen "on stage" in your story. You are allowed to fast forward, cheat, break to another chapter and come back in on "So now you understand everything, yes?" and so on.

For the specific instance of a child POV character, there are a number of good solutions, since it's quite normal for children not to know everything, either because they don't understand what is happening or the adults keep things from them. So you have a number of options. The adults could talk things over in another room. The POV character could fall asleep, or have his interest wander, or any number of other scenarios.

Another thing to keep in mind when dealing with other worlds is that most characters already know the background, so explanations can be quite short, but leave questions for the reader to uncover. Think about your experience in early 21st century America. Suppose someone says, "That was before 9/11, of course." You instantly know the whole world of meaning wrapped up in that. But to someone from 1995 it would make no sense whatsoever.

[Cathy C]

by Mr Underhill: "That was before 9/11, of course."


Very well stated! We actually used this example in our latest book, when one character is complaining that people would be perfectly accepting of magic in today's reality, because the character had accepted it. The reply was, "Oh yeah! We've become real tolerant of stuff that scares us since 9/11, haven't we? Get real!" The reader instantly understands the comment. But again, if written in 1995, it would have to be explained in much more depth.

by DaveKuzminski: Right now, I'm having a different problem. Essentially, my character can travel through time and is deliberately trying to change one outcome. However, doing so affects other things, including the background of her own culture and her own feelings. When she started, she tried not to kill anyone. Eventually, she reached the point where she accepted that death might come regardless of her efforts and then she did kill, though in self defense. Now she's actually considering that murder might be acceptable. I'm not sure this is a result of maturity and acceptance of the fact or the influence by time travel and changes she's caused already.

So, any opinions on which would be better?

Ah, yes! Paradoxes and the butterfly effect. This is especially difficult in time travel books, and hard science people will get rabid on you for messing it up. I think that if your character can travel through time AT WILL, and has a specific goal to change one outcome, she would probably pop back once, get a "feel" for the people in the general area and go back first to research who died right around that time. Give her some sort of DNA sampler or such so that she can scan in data as she meets people or through things they leave behind (plates, glasses, bathroom waste towels, etc.) You can still leave some mystery and crossing fingers for luck that this wasn't one of the "don't kills." But then your readers are going to know she's trying and will be more forgiving. Just a thought! :D

[DaveKuzminski]

Precisely. I not only have the problem of her own attitude and behavior changing, but of condensing the whole history of the world for the reader into what's important that changed. When she returns to the present, she already knows her history but is unaware that it was ever different while her companion who controls the time travel is aware, but only of the possibilities and that they've switched into one.

[Cathy C]

Actually, sometimes that can be quite simple. If she disappears and reappears in the same location in the city when she travels, it can be something as simple as having her look up at a billboard for the newest iPod player as she's leaving and realizing she'll miss the release and she's NEVER missed a release of a new toy, (or her favorite park/open area) and then returning and there's a government building there instead.

SHE will recognize the new feature as normal, because her history changed, but the READER will be flipping back pages and go, "Uh-oh!" Then you've got them hooked to find out what ELSE has changed. You just have to make it significant the first time for it to be really obvious when she returns. That's why I suggested a building. Something that probably wouldn't go up in a few days. Just a thought...

[DaveKuzminski]

True enough, but I'm looking at sociological or cultural changes which to her will not stand out. Also, our main character doesn't have quite the same vantage as the other character who controls the time travel and is capable of pinpointing a time and place only under special circumstances which have for the most part already been defined. Otherwise, their travel is mostly an approximation that might put them two or three days off from where they'd prefer to be and can sometimes be very far off if a storm is involved at departure or destination points.

[Shai]

I wanted to say that I found everyone's discussions so far very interesting and the varied advice useful.

I am writing a book where currently the main character is very much in an "Alice through the looking glass" situation. It has become a very big struggle to integrate her into the new world without many info dumps and "As you know, Bob"s. I've been trying to find a way to rework the story so that she originates within the fantasy world to avoid these things and make my world building easier in a "show" way. I haven't quite figured it out yet, and if I never do, well then, at least I have read the things proposed here to see about finding better ways to keep my story going the way it is.

So...thanks for all the thoughtful input!

[Mike Coombes]

I see a lot of posts in a lot of places (not just AW) that start out 'my beta readers say...'

It's very seldom I've seen an author override that. Consider - you are writing the book. The beta reader isn't. The beta reader isn't even a 'proper' reader - they don't read from the perspective of book buyer, but of nitpicker.

They have their place, but dictating what goes in isn't it.

If your initial decision was to give limited information, keep it that way.

[brokenfingers]

Right now, I'm having a different problem. Essentially, my character can travel through time and is deliberately trying to change one outcome. However, doing so affects other things, including the background of her own culture and her own feelings. When she started, she tried not to kill anyone. Eventually, she reached the point where she accepted that death might come regardless of her efforts and then she did kill, though in self defense. Now she's actually considering that murder might be acceptable. I'm not sure this is a result of maturity and acceptance of the fact or the influence by time travel and changes she's caused already.

So, any opinions on which would be better?Here's a link to an award-winning story in which the author faced a similar problem. I enjoyed it immensely and it may provide some insight as to how to go about it.

Or maybe not - but it's still a good read. Hope it helps.

http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/originals/originals_archive/mcmullen/mcmullen1.html

[bluejester12]

But what if one of your character needs to know, not everything, but a lot of information all at once, & another character there knows it, & they can't move on until they find out the information?

Let's say your character is young, & another character is asking him to accompany them to another world. His parents are there, & they want more information before they allow their son to go so far away. How do you let the character from the other world give them the information they need, without just answering questions for a few pages?


Is there a way you can let the character go against their parent's wishes? The character runs away, kidnappped etc. That'd save some info dumping and add dramatic tension. Of course, it may change a lot of your narrative.

[Sage]

Is there a way you can let the character go against their parent's wishes? The character runs away, kidnappped etc. That'd save some info dumping and add dramatic tension. Of course, it may change a lot of your narrative.

Sadly, not this character. His sister, however, not only would go against her parents' wishes, but does. Kidnapping would steal what credibility that the character from the other world has, which is definitely needed.

[Nateskate]

The Bane of Fantasy writing. There are many tools. But you've got to mix them up and have a story moving at the same time.

Two people in a room find and read an important manuscript, letter, which gives clues to what happened in the past.

You can put some into the book they find,or, into the mouth of either character.

"Bill, this shows that the Zorons were here before! My grandfather kept records, and they came in the 1930s!"

"What does it say?" Ed asked, with a look of bewilderment. "How did they get rid of them...Zor-off?"

Bill flipped through the parchments, eager to find an answer, and found a line that read, "The Zorons are from Muravelos...they are impurvious to every weapon known to man, except one..."'

"Good, keep reading!"

"I can't. There are smears from water marks and the writing isn't legible...wait, here's another page I can read..."

[Mike Coombes]

Just because your readers are telling you they want more, doesn't mean it's right. Less is, so often, more. Better to leave your reader with questions and give him/her room to draw some conclusions of their own than either spoon-feed them or bore them to the point that your novel flies across the room unfinished.

[Andrew Jameson]

But what if one of your character needs to know, not everything, but a lot of information all at once, & another character there knows it, & they can't move on until they find out the information?Granted that the character needs to know it, but does the reader? If the reader already knows the information, or the information isn't all that important, just summarize the conversation:



"We can't just let Mikie go haring off to another world for a whole week!" Mikie's father said.



"Why not? You let him go to band camp last summer for a whole month," Encolpius said.

"But this is different...." Mikie's father enunciated dozens of worries, from the length of time to the inherent danger to the possibility that Mikie wouldn't find his way home to the homework he'd miss.

For each objection, Encolpius had a calm and reasonable answer. The answers were so compelling that Mikie began to think that his father might even break down and agree.

Finally, Mikie's father threw his hands in the air. "All right, all right. It's safe, it's necessary, and it's even educational. Go ahead, take off." He turned to Mikie. "But you'd better be home tomorrow before midnight, or you're grounded for a week!"


OK; I have no idea what that's about, but if your readers can fill in the blanks of the summary, I think you can get away with it.

[Sage]

Well, it's all information they do need to know at some point or another. The world is just as foreign to the reader as to the character, so its not blanks that they would be able to fill.

Here's the scenario. Girl appears from another world, gets to know boy while pretending to be from his world, then is ambushed by his parents who know just enuf about her world to know she's from it. The boy knows absolutely nothing about that world, but she wants to take him to it. The parents won't let him go off to this other world that they know practically nothing about w/out finding out, at least, why she needs him. He needs to know too, as do the audience. But it does come out as fairly infodumpy.

[Sage]

The Bane of Fantasy writing. There are many tools. But you've got to mix them up and have a story moving at the same time.

I totally agree. I have a lot of information that is dispersed throughout the novel, & the character giving the information in the scene I've been talking about is very purposefully holding things back. The problem is appeasing the characters' need & desire to know (or at least get enuf info to satisfy them), without cheating the audience ("Wispa described her need to take Jian to Faere, after which his parents agreed." That's going to seriously annoy the readers who don't know why she needs him either). This is an important decision for the characters & not just the parents, & it's right after a huge reveal. The information is given conversationally (not unlike your example, with people interrupting w/ comments that range from asking for more info to things that are more personal, like the girl who secretly likes Jian making a snippy comment to Wispa... things like that), which does add to some of the length, but when I go thru & see I wrote a few pages of what is mostly just information, I have to cringe.

[Andrew Jameson]

Well, it's all information they do need to know at some point or another. The world is just as foreign to the reader as to the character, so its not blanks that they would be able to fill.

Here's the scenario. Girl appears from another world, gets to know boy while pretending to be from his world, then is ambushed by his parents who know just enuf about her world to know she's from it. The boy knows absolutely nothing about that world, but she wants to take him to it. The parents won't let him go off to this other world that they know practically nothing about w/out finding out, at least, why she needs him. He needs to know too, as do the audience. But it does come out as fairly infodumpy.OK; I see. Let me ask you this question: Is all the information that you give information that the readers need to know at that point in the story, whether or not the characters need or would like to know that information?

If the answer is "no," then you shouldn't be giving that information, and I think it would be better to cut it out. Not by using a summary (which as you point out, the reader wouldn't be able to fill in), but perhaps by using another technique--removing the POV character (I assume "boy" is your POV character) from the room for a time, for example. Dad orders him up to his room, but he sneaks back and eavesdrops, but misses the first part of the conversation.

If the answer is "yes," then I don't think your scene has a problem with infodumping, per se. If I'm a curious reader, I'm willing to sit through a scene like that. If you're sensing that there's a problem, however, the problem may be with pacing, or repetition, or lack of tension. If, for example, the scene is question-answer-question-answer-snippy comment-question-answer etc, then the repetition may be overwhelming. Perhaps changing the format would help. Girl could start with a fairly long story, then a bit of question and answer, then girl pulls out a locket with a picture, then boy starts arguing, etc. Or maybe you need more internalization from boy. Or change the location: they're walking around the neighborhood instead of sitting in the living room.

IMHO, take with a grain of salt, etc.

[Sage]

If the answer is "yes," then I don't think your scene has a problem with infodumping, per se. If I'm a curious reader, I'm willing to sit through a scene like that. If you're sensing that there's a problem, however, the problem may be with pacing, or repetition, or lack of tension. If, for example, the scene is question-answer-question-answer-snippy comment-question-answer etc, then the repetition may be overwhelming. Perhaps changing the format would help. Girl could start with a fairly long story, then a bit of question and answer, then girl pulls out a locket with a picture, then boy starts arguing, etc. Or maybe you need more internalization from boy. Or change the location: they're walking around the neighborhood instead of sitting in the living room.

IMHO, take with a grain of salt, etc.

Thanks, Andrew. This is really a very helpful post :Hug2: